Segregation on Irish Rail Trains?

foggy_lad

-Chris- wrote: »

They should carry photo ID to prove they are the person the pass refers to. It's a sensible measure to combat misuse.

There is a signature on the pass and currently the only way to check you are the pass holder is to ask for a sample of your signature to compare with your signature on the pass. Staff of Irish rail, bus Eireann or Dublin bus have no authority to ask you as a pass holder for photo or other id.

xper wrote: »

I just came across this other post by you from just three days ago in another current C&T thread. Are you
a ) psychitzophrenic?
b ) making it up as you go along?
c ) the victim of online identity theft?
d ) posting counter arguments for the sake of arguing?
e ) other (please explain) ?

you can't have read the post you link to very well, while I agree that the scheme should have been changed years ago it was not! No amount of fraud gives any Irish fail or Bus Eireann or Dublin Bus employee the right or authority to insist on any form of id from any pass holder except for a sample of their signature!

As for being herded into the last carriages of the train, this was something I have witnessed in Cork and Galway on every occasion I have got a train to dubblin from those stations, those last carriages then become the farthest carriages from the exit at Heuston.

As for the incident at Cork this again is something I was wittness to and found the incident unnerving and thought when the clerk refused to give his name when asked and then refused to alert a senior member of staff or the station manager it was not just going a bit too far or overstepping the mark but had somehow become personal.

At the end of the day until such a time that the rules are changed or free travel abolished or the rules tidied up to prevent fraud the only instrument inspectors or other staff have is to request or insist on a sample of the pass holders signature and threatening someone with taking their pass when they are hundreds of miles from home is the action of a worse scumbag than will ever be found wielding a free pass on public transport.

Hilly Bill

-Chris- wrote: »

If you think a post, or poster, is trolling please report the post. It's not on to accuse people of trolling.

I dont agree with reporting posts unless they are abusive and personal . If i was to start reporting his posts for trolling i would be here all day and then it would be a waste of time anyway as he seems to have a free rein on here and allowed to call other posters trolls and nothing said on the board like your response here. Is calling someone a troll worse than calling people nazis and scumbags?

-Chris-

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is a signature on the pass and currently the only way to check you are the pass holder is to ask for a sample of your signature to compare with your signature on the pass. Staff of Irish rail, bus Eireann or Dublin bus have no authority to ask you as a pass holder for photo or other id.

And I'm saying that signatures shouldn't be the only way to check, that they should change the rules to say all pass holders should be required to carry photo ID as well.

-Chris-

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I dont agree with reporting posts unless they are abusive and personal . If i was to start reporting his posts for trolling i would be here all day and then it would be a waste of time anyway as he seems to have a free rein on here and allowed to call other posters trolls and nothing said on the board like your response here. Is calling someone a troll worse than calling people nazis and scumbags?

I'm not asking you for a favour, I'm telling you it's the proper procedure and I'm expecting you to abide by it.

Hilly Bill

I really thought that was the case already. Seriously suprised that there isnt a photo with the pass.

foggy_lad

-Chris- wrote: »

And I'm saying that signatures shouldn't be the only way to check, that they should change the rules to say all pass holders should be required to carry photo ID as well.

I do agree with you and have always stated that the scheem needs to be updated or altered to stamp out fraud and also to control those who engage in anti social behavior while using their passes, but that does not give any employee whether driver conductor ticket clerk or inspector the right to go way beyond their authority and needlessly terrify someone who is unfortunate enough to have been issued a free travel pass.

Hilly Bill

those last carriages then become the farthest carriages from the exit at Heuston.


Its going to be a walk at one or the other station isnt it. I can understand your argument if they were refused access to a certain part of a train and forced to stand for the whole journey when there was non-reserved seats available but not if they were show to a part of the train with plenty of no-reserved seats and they sat down for the whole journey.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I really thought that was the case already. Seriously suprised that there isnt a photo with the pass.

If you live in Dublin Waterford cork limerick or Galway you must get a photo pass in your local CIE/bus Eireann travelcentre. If you live outside those urban areas you do not need to have any id but must on request provide a sample of your signature for comparison with the signature you should have put on the card when you first got it.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I do agree with you and have always stated that the scheem needs to be updated or altered to stamp out fraud and also to control those who engage in anti social behavior while using their passes, but that does not give any employee whether driver conductor ticket clerk or inspector the right to go way beyond their authority and needlessly terrify someone who is unfortunate enough to have been issued a free travel pass.

I agree that nobody should go beyond their authority and the same should apply for pass holders as well but was someone actually terrified here ?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you live in Dublin Waterford cork limerick or Galway you must get a photo pass in your local CIE/bus Eireann travelcentre. If you live outside those urban areas you do not need to have any id but must on request provide a sample of your signature for comparison with the signature you should have put on the card when you first got it.

How come? is it not part of the same scheme?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

those last carriages then become the farthest carriages from the exit at Heuston.


Its going to be a walk at one or the other station isnt it. I can understand your argument if they were refused access to a certain part of a train and forced to stand for the whole journey when there was non-reserved seats available but not if they were show to a part of the train with plenty of no-reserved seats and they sat down for the whole journey.

But there is no rule or condition or bye-law preventing all passengers from entering the carriages with reserved seating and finding an unreserved seat to sit on, so why would someone with only one leg or maybe even none be forced to walk all the way to the end carriages when there is quite obviously plenty of unreserved seats in the other carriages?

The answer is that Irish rail want to give their paying passengers an advantage over the disabled and elderly!

mikemac

Any plans to go to the Equality Authority over this foggy_lad?

Get an investigation going?

Losty Dublin

mikemac wrote: »

Any plans to go to the Equality Authority over this foggy_lad?

Get an investigation going?

Or even Irish Rail:D

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

But there is no rule or condition or bye-law preventing all passengers from entering the carriages with reserved seating and finding an unreserved seat to sit on, so why would someone with only one leg or maybe even none be forced to walk all the way to the end carriages when there is quite obviously plenty of unreserved seats in the other carriages?

The answer is that Irish rail want to give their paying passengers an advantage over the disabled and elderly!

First bit, i get your point now. Second bit, i doubt very much that Irish Rail want to give advantage over the disabled and elderly but if they did i could see the logic behind it. Fare paying passengers keep the trains running now after saying that does Irish Rail get paid from the social towards those passes thats being used?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How come? is it not part of the same scheme?

No idea why, it has a lot to do with rural transport being so poor when the scheme was introduced and that the local bus and train drivers and staff would know the pass holders so photo id would not be required while at that time the listed urban areas all had city busses and the passes were more anonymous so the photo pass was a security measure to stop others using your pass, but as I have mentioned on other threads even the photo id is easily got by someone else as you don't need photo id to get it just a birth cert and utility bill.

foggy_lad

mikemac wrote: »

Any plans to go to the Equality Authority over this foggy_lad?

Get an investigation going?

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Or even Irish Rail:D

If I had been treated like that I would be seeing a solicitor not Irish rail or the equality authority. But as I am not the aggrieved party I have no grounds on which to make a complaint.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

First bit, i get your point now. Second bit, i doubt very much that Irish Rail want to give advantage over the disabled and elderly but if they did i could see the logic behind it. Fare paying passengers keep the trains running now after saying that does Irish Rail get paid from the social towards those passes thats being used?

Yes they get millions in subvention for accepting free travel passes and without that money or even without the free pass holders the company could be cut in half as the would be less than half the passengers IMO so half the staff would be redundant but knowing Irish rail they would be kept on walking the platform or doing some little task or other.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes they get millions in subvention for accepting free travel passes and without that money or even without the free pass holders the company could be cut in half as the would be less than half the passengers IMO so half the staff would be redundant but knowing Irish rail they would be kept on walking the platform or doing some little task or other.

Treated like what exactly? are you still on about the so called segragation?

Kept on walking the platform ? just walking up and down all day?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Treated like what exactly? are you still on about the so called segragation?

Kept on walking the platform ? just walking up and down all day?

Have you read the thread? If I had presented a free travel pass and been told it would be kept unless I produced photo id by the ticket clerk who would have known the man was hundreds of miles from home, if I was treated like this I would see a solicitor as the staff have no right to threaten passengers like that and can't withold travel passes without good reason!

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Have you read the thread? If I had presented a free travel pass and been told it would be kept unless I produced photo id by the ticket clerk who would have known the man was hundreds of miles from home, if I was treated like this I would see a solicitor as the staff have no right to threaten passengers like that and can't withold travel passes without good reason!

Irish Rail can refuse any passenger who doesn't have a valid ticket carriage onto a train. In the event of those who carry a ticket that needs an ID or one that is unique to it's bearer, it is up to the passenger to show that they are entitled to use same and they have the right to confiscate any ticket they suspect is being used wrongly. If this means a signature, then a driving licence or passport is a reasonable means of ID to expect, unlike a video rental card.

While you claim that the bearer was hard done by, unless you know for an unequivocal fact that this actually happened and that they were legitimately traveling on their valid pass, you are pissing in the wind with yet another one of your tall tales here.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Have you read the thread? If I had presented a free travel pass and been told it would be kept unless I produced photo id by the ticket clerk who would have known the man was hundreds of miles from home, if I was treated like this I would see a solicitor as the staff have no right to threaten passengers like that and can't withold travel passes without good reason!

But you wasnt so why are you giving out about it? How was anyone threatened? How did you come about this? was you standing with them?
yes i read the thread but thought it was about some sort of segregation and not someone being asked for photo ID.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes they get millions in subvention for accepting free travel passes and without that money or even without the free pass holders the company could be cut in half as the would be less than half the passengers IMO so half the staff would be redundant but knowing Irish rail they would be kept on walking the platform or doing some little task or other.

But Foggy_Lad my dear fellow,you must accept that the Free Travel Scheme "subvention" ,as you call it,is nothing of the sort.

It is a payment to the relevant company (Public or Private) for providing a service to the DSP's customers.
That payment is at an agreed discounted rate,which in the CIE group's case is politically imposed upon them.

Foggy_Lad's case appears to be based solely upon classifying all of the 640,000 DSP Customers as fragile,abused or otherwise put-upon

He also I presume is aware that a DSP Free Pass holder resident in one of the listed Urban areas MUST have a Photo ID in addition to the cardboard square in order to render the Free Pass valid....unless they are together the individual elements are not valid for travel.

In my daily work I would have occasion to inspect such passes and I can unequivocally state that it is thankless and often highly unrewarding work.

Significant numbers of my elderly customers simply refuse to display any item at all,but instead will just barge directly onto the bus and force their way down the gangway.

Others will tap their breast pocket and perhaps nod or smile.

Others still will show just the Photo ID or the Cardboard.

A very small number will have the full document and those people will usually be puncticillous about displaying it.

Without fear of contradiction I can state that challenging any of the first three groupings will immediately trigger a negative and often aggressive response,which can and does continue for their entire journey and is used to stimulate much semi-hysterical conversation.

Any elderly person telling me "I Have a Pass" does not satisfy the simple requirement to produce it for each journey...Simple ?

Having a Pass,but failing to advise the Driver that it's in the care of your Offspring,Sibling,Best Friend or Lover is not abiding by the rather liberal conditions attaching to this wonderful benefit.

Quite frankly,the Irish rail staff involved in the Scenario so colourfully described by Foggy_Lad perhaps deserve praise for their attempts to operate the DSP's scheme in the absense of the DSP having much interested in policing it (and it's widespread abuse) themselves.

As I Have posted here before it's my belief that the current DSP Free Travel Scheme is in significant difficulties.

The recent occurences where new services were refused entry to it should be ringing alarm-bells very clearly.

I think this post could well turn out to be prophetic in the near future....

Dowlingm: I suppose foggy applauded when Seamus Brennan put DSP recipients into entitlement to peak time travel at a time when ridership was peaking and people were fainting on trains, since this was temporal segregation.

Free travel is farcical and should be abolished forthwith. It should be replaced by a system where seniors get DISCOUNTED travel including the right to reserve seats by telephone without charge. In no way can it be claimed that seniors "paid in" and are entitled to this benefit gratis since no trust exists to endow the resulting outgoings.

For others, they get a limited amount of travel allowance dependent on why they need travel - if a Killarney person needs to get to Tralee for medical treatment 5 days a month, they shouldn't have a pass which gets them to Dundalk the other 25 days for free should they so wish.

It should be noted that contactless "Smart-Card" technology will allow for a far more targeted and accountable system than the current nonsensical cardboard based item.

To return to the title of this thread which Foggy_Lad went with...on mature reflection perhaps even he might consider ceding some of the moral high-ground here.

Personally I find the notion of his portrayal of the individual Irish Rail staff borderline actionable in terms of abusiveness and the notion that Irish Rail has a corporate policy of "segregation" is one which I would expect Irish Rail themselves to robustly defend should it be pursued through the relevant channels.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Irish Rail can refuse any passenger who doesn't have a valid ticket carriage onto a train. In the event of those who carry a ticket that needs an ID or one that is unique to it's bearer, it is up to the passenger to show that they are entitled to use same and they have the right to confiscate any ticket they suspect is being used wrongly. If this means a signature, then a driving licence or passport is a reasonable means of ID to expect, unlike a video rental card.

While you claim that the bearer was hard done by, unless you know for an unequivocal fact that this actually happened and that they were legitimately traveling on their valid pass, you are pissing in the wind with yet another one of your tall tales here.

I know for a fact that it did happen, have you not read through the thread? Just saw one post and decided to defend this thug regardless of his actions?

It is not within the remit of Irish rail or it's employees to decide if a person is entitled to free travel! That is the sole responsibility of the free travel department in longford/Sligo.

If I walked into a station ini the morning with a free pass and asked for a ticket to Tralee or anywhere else the staff must give it to me as long as my pass is in order, as long as it is signed and has the photo pass if that is required by my address. They can request a sample of my signature to compare with the signature on the pass if they suspect I am not the person named on the pass but they are not allowed to insist on any form of identification at the ticket office.

People appear to be ignoring the facts in favor of giving these nazi-like jobsworths who have decided they can terrorize those less fortunate than themselves more licence to overstep their authority.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I know for a fact that it did happen, have you not read through the thread? Just saw one post and decided to defend this thug regardless of his actions?

It is not within the remit of Irish rail or it's employees to decide if a person is entitled to free travel! That is the sole responsibility of the free travel department in longford/Sligo.

If I walked into a station ini the morning with a free pass and asked for a ticket to Tralee or anywhere else the staff must give it to me as long as my pass is in order, as long as it is signed and has the photo pass if that is required by my address. They can request a sample of my signature to compare with the signature on the pass if they suspect I am not the person named on the pass but they are not allowed to insist on any form of identification at the ticket office.

People appear to be ignoring the facts in favor of giving these nazi-like jobsworths who have decided they can terrorize those less fortunate than themselves more licence to overstep their authority.

What facts? has it got anything to do with the thread title or has the thread been merged with another one?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

But Foggy_Lad my dear fellow,you must accept that the Free Travel Scheme "subvention" ,as you call it,is nothing of the sort.

It is a payment to the relevant company (Public or Private) for providing a service to the DSP's customers.
That payment is at an agreed discounted rate,which in the CIE group's case is politically imposed upon them.

Foggy_Lad's case appears to be based solely upon classifying all of the 640,000 DSP Customers as fragile,abused or otherwise put-upon

He also I presume is aware that a DSP Free Pass holder resident in one of the listed Urban areas MUST have a Photo ID in addition to the cardboard square in order to render the Free Pass valid....unless they are together the individual elements are not valid for travel.

In my daily work I would have occasion to inspect such passes and I can unequivocally state that it is thankless and often highly unrewarding work.

Significant numbers of my elderly customers simply refuse to display any item at all,but instead will just barge directly onto the bus and force their way down the gangway.

Others will tap their breast pocket and perhaps nod or smile.

Others still will show just the Photo ID or the Cardboard.

A very small number will have the full document and those people will usually be puncticillous about displaying it.

Without fear of contradiction I can state that challenging any of the first three groupings will immediately trigger a negative and often aggressive response,which can and does continue for their entire journey and is used to stimulate much semi-hysterical conversation.

Any elderly person telling me "I Have a Pass" does not satisfy the simple requirement to produce it for each journey...Simple ?

Having a Pass,but failing to advise the Driver that it's in the care of your Offspring,Sibling,Best Friend or Lover is not abiding by the rather liberal conditions attaching to this wonderful benefit.

Quite frankly,the Irish rail staff involved in the Scenario so colourfully described by Foggy_Lad perhaps deserve praise for their attempts to operate the DSP's scheme in the absense of the DSP having much interested in policing it (and it's widespread abuse) themselves.

As I Have posted here before it's my belief that the current DSP Free Travel Scheme is in significant difficulties.

The recent occurences where new services were refused entry to it should be ringing alarm-bells very clearly.

I think this post could well turn out to be prophetic in the near future....



It should be noted that contactless "Smart-Card" technology will allow for a far more targeted and accountable system than the current nonsensical cardboard based item.

To return to the title of this thread which Foggy_Lad went with...on mature reflection perhaps even he might consider ceding some of the moral high-ground here.

Personally I find the notion of his portrayal of the individual Irish Rail staff borderline actionable in terms of abusiveness and the notion that Irish Rail has a corporate policy of "segregation" is one which I would expect Irish Rail themselves to robustly defend should it be pursued through the relevant channels.

Alex my dear fellow the first part of your post deals with drivers allowing people to board without passes or without showing them and the only people who are responsible in those cases are the individual drivers., I have often seen those you speak of and for many it is not their intention to defraud anyone but many have got dressed to go out only to find someone in their own family/household has made off with their pass to use it themselves. This is something I would have advised many older people about in the past.

As for Irish rail staff policing where the department may have failed, I will state that from what I have seen not just recently but over several years of Irish rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus inspectors they are not fit to police the free travel scheme. The recent incident I witnessed and several others which I only have anecdotal evidence of lead me to believe that terrorizing of the physically and mentally disabled and those with intellectual difficulties would be rampant. And many would actually take great pleasure in their new positions of power.

If I threatened to take your car off you hundreds of miles from your home knowing you would not have any other way home how would you feel? Now if you know that I do not have the authority to take your car but I have the keys in my hand does it make it worse?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What facts? has it got anything to do with the thread title or has the thread been merged with another one?

The fact that Irish rail staff are not allowed insist on photo id or any id from free pass holders apart from a sample of their signature which they can compare with the pass holders signature on the pass. I thought that was self-explanatory?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

I know for a fact that it did happen, have you not read through the thread? Just saw one post and decided to defend this thug regardless of his actions?

You may know for a fact but frankly we don't actually believe you

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not within the remit of Irish rail or it's employees to decide if a person is entitled to free travel! That is the sole responsibility of the free travel department in longford/Sligo.

You are 100% right; Irish Rail are not remitted to decide if you are entitled to a free travel pass.

However, as carrier they need to be satisfied in the event of dispute that you are entitled to travel on their service with the free pass you present at the time of travel. And if this don't match it's tough titties for you. As it happens, your word about something that you didn't directly see happening and are as such uninformed about is possibly worth it's weight in Greek bank bonds to be honest.

foggy_lad wrote: »

If I walked into a station ini the morning with a free pass and asked for a ticket to Tralee or anywhere else the staff must give it to me as long as my pass is in order, as long as it is signed and has the photo pass if that is required by my address. They can request a sample of my signature to compare with the signature on the pass if they suspect I am not the person named on the pass but they are not allowed to insist on any form of identification at the ticket office.

People appear to be ignoring the facts in favor of giving these nazi-like jobsworths who have decided they can terrorize those less fortunate than themselves more licence to overstep their authority.

They can give you a ticket if your bits and bobs are in order. That said, they can deny you carriage if you don't comply with their T+C of carriage as well. Moan all you like but it works both ways, only fair when you're on a free fare, if you will

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The fact that Irish rail staff are not allowed insist on photo id or any id from free pass holders apart from a sample of their signature which they can compare with the pass holders signature on the pass. I thought that was self-explanatory?

What has that got to do with the so called segregation?

And you know they cant how?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Alex my dear fellow the first part of your post deals with drivers allowing people to board without passes or without showing them and the only people who are responsible in those cases are the individual drivers., I have often seen those you speak of and for many it is not their intention to defraud anyone but many have got dressed to go out only to find someone in their own family/household has made off with their pass to use it themselves. This is something I would have advised many older people about in the past.

As for Irish rail staff policing where the department may have failed, I will state that from what I have seen not just recently but over several years of Irish rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus inspectors they are not fit to police the free travel scheme. The recent incident I witnessed and several others which I only have anecdotal evidence of lead me to believe that terrorizing of the physically and mentally disabled and those with intellectual difficulties would be rampant. And many would actually take great pleasure in their new positions of power.

If I threatened to take your car off you hundreds of miles from your home knowing you would not have any other way home how would you feel? Now if you know that I do not have the authority to take your car but I have the keys in my hand does it make it worse?

How are you qualified to judge if anyone is fit to do anything? Dont you think its a bit much and wrong to be accusing people of terrorism and threats based mearly on your overreaction?

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You may know for a fact but frankly we don't actually believe you



You are 100% right; Irish Rail are not remitted to decide if you are entitled to a free travel pass.

However, as carrier they need to be satisfied in the event of dispute that you are entitled to travel on their service with the free pass you present at the time of travel. And if this don't match it's tough titties for you. As it happens, your word about something that you didn't directly see happening and are as such uninformed about is possibly worth it's weight in Greek bank bonds to be honest.



They can give you a ticket if your bits and bobs are in order. That said, they can deny you carriage if you don't comply with their T+C of carriage as well. Moan all you like but it works both ways, only fair when you're on a free fare, if you will

The conditions of carriage must be adhered to yes but once a ticket has been issued the validity of the pass has been accepted.

But if the clerk feels there is some issue with the pass it is up to them to either retain the pass or ask for a sample of the pass holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

In the case of free travel passes their remit does not permit them to insist on photo or any other kind of identification from pass holders.

Solair

A very large % of passengers on the Cork train do actually reserve tickets and if you come up to the barrier with ANY non-reserved ticket, they seem to direct you towards the far non-reserved coaches at the end.

There is a bit of a problem when coach C seems to be opposite the gate, and people automatically try to find seats in there and it just delays boarding and causes general chaos.

If they encourage non-reserved passengers to go to the coaches that have no reservations in operation, at least they can find a seat without fuss.

Obviously you can find a seat, if there's no name displayed, in any coach.

The services in the coaches are identical regardless of whether it's reserved or not, so it's not like the class of service is diminished because you're in a different coach.

Also, OAPs can reserve online for a small fee of €3.00. My granny and other elderly relatives do it regularly.

They can also purchase a reserved seat in 1st class for €20.00 by just buying it as a supplement online.

You pick up your OAP ticket as usual, and then collect your supplement for the reserved seat or first class upgrade at the ticket machine like anyone else and you just bring 2 tickets on board with you.

Someone with a normal open return ticket can also do the same and book a seat / upgrade.

So, if anything, OAPs get to travel intercity in 1st class for 20 quid which isn't bad!

Also, the service is a hell of a lot better than it was several years ago when you couldn't be sure of a seat having paid full whack for a ticket. I remember queuing up for one of those awful orange trains that smelt of chip grease and 1970s Guinness stains in the carpet. The queue when I arrived was snaking around the station and by the time we got to the barrier, the train had departed without us.

That was regular at busy times on the Cork - Dublin service. At least now people are booking online and the discounts they often have tend to push people onto non-peak time services too which makes life easier for everyone and spreads the load.

foggy_lad

Solair wrote: »

A very large % of passengers on the Cork train do actually reserve tickets and if you come up to the barrier with ANY non-reserved ticket, they seem to direct you towards the far non-reserved coaches at the end.

There is a bit of a problem when coach C seems to be opposite the gate, and people automatically try to find seats in there and it just delays boarding and causes general chaos.

If they encourage non-reserved passengers to go to the coaches that have no reservations in operation, at least they can find a seat without fuss.

Obviously you can find a seat, if there's no name displayed, in any coach.

The services in the coaches are identical regardless of whether it's reserved or not, so it's not like the class of service is diminished because you're in a different coach.

Also, OAPs can reserve online for a small fee of €3.00. My granny and other elderly relatives do it regularly.

They can also purchase a reserved seat in 1st class for €20.00 by just buying it as a supplement online.

You pick up your OAP ticket as usual, and then collect your supplement for the reserved seat or first class upgrade at the ticket machine like anyone else and you just bring 2 tickets on board with you.

Someone with a normal open return ticket can also do the same and book a seat / upgrade.

So, if anything, OAPs get to travel intercity in 1st class for 20 quid which isn't bad!

Also, the service is a hell of a lot better than it was several years ago when you couldn't be sure of a seat having paid full whack for a ticket. I remember queuing up for one of those awful orange trains that smelt of chip grease and 1970s Guinness stains in the carpet. The queue when I arrived was snaking around the station and by the time we got to the barrier, the train had departed without us.

That was regular at busy times on the Cork - Dublin service. At least now people are booking online and the discounts they often have tend to push people onto non-peak time services too which makes life easier for everyone and spreads the load.

That is a good side to it but unless they buy in 1st class they are looking at a hell of a walk at Heuston from the end of the train to the exits. This is ok for people who are still able-bodied but not so good for those with a physical disability that affects their mobility..

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

The conditions of carriage must be adhered to yes but once a ticket has been issued the validity of the pass has been accepted.

But if the clerk feels there is some issue with the pass it is up to them to either retain the pass or ask for a sample of the pass holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

In the case of free travel passes their remit does not permit them to insist on photo or any other kind of identification from pass holders.

1) A valid ticket does not guarantee carriage on any form of transport; air, sea, train or bus. As for an invalid one or invalid ID... :rolleyes:

2) Have you ever heard of forging signatures before? Are you sure that there wasn't a problem with his CIE photo ID? Can you be certain of any facts in this case? I sincerely doubt it TBH.

3) Their remit allows them to confiscate any misused pass or ticket and their remit allows them to ask any passenger suspected of ticket misuse, under protection of law.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is a good side to it but unless they buy in 1st class they are looking at a hell of a walk at Heuston from the end of the train to the exits. This is ok for people who are still able-bodied but not so good for those with a physical disability that affects their mobility..

Ive seen a good few times Irish rail staff giving lifts to those who had trouble walking in golf buggy type carts. A hell of a walk? surley they will have to walk at some point during the day.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ive seen a good few times Irish rail staff giving lifts to those who had trouble walking in golf buggy type carts. A hell of a walk? surley they will have to walk at some point during the day.

My Mum has used them many a time, actually. A great service it has to be said.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1) A valid ticket does not guarantee carriage on any form of transport; air, sea, train or bus. As for an invalid one or invalid ID... :rolleyes:

2) Have you ever heard of forging signatures before? Are you sure that there wasn't a problem with his CIE photo ID? Can you be certain of any facts in this case? I sincerely doubt it TBH.

3) Their remit allows them to confiscate any misused pass or ticket and their remit allows them to ask any passenger suspected of ticket misuse, under protection of law.

The person did not have a photo pass and afaik there was no problem with his pass but he may have said something about the time of the train that the ticket clerk did not like? I was close enough to see the RPU lettering in the id that the other supposed inspector produced and was close enough to hear most of the conversation even though the RPU person was trying to direct people away from the incident. They were just being bully's and seriously overstepped their authority and remit in this case IMHO.

On the other side of the coin, the train host that evening was very good and very helpful and was genuinely surprised that passengers were being barred from the carriages with reserved seating by the platform staff. He told me I could sit in any unreserved seat on the entire train apart from first class. I have seen him on the train a few times and he is always helpful asking people if they need a seat near the plug points if they have laptops and organizing families with buggys so they are all sitting together with space for the buggys where possible.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The person did not have a photo pass and afaik there was no problem with his pass but he may have said something about the time of the train that the ticket clerk did not like? I was close enough to see the RPU lettering in the id that the other supposed inspector produced and was close enough to hear most of the conversation even though the RPU person was trying to direct people away from the incident. They were just being bully's and seriously overstepped their authority and remit in this case IMHO.

So you was just being nosey then and dont know the full facts? What qualifies you to judge wether they overstepped their authority or not?
Bulllies, nazis, terrorists ? you are on form tonight Foggy Lad, i cant wait to see what else you accuse them of

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is a good side to it but unless they buy in 1st class they are looking at a hell of a walk at Heuston from the end of the train to the exits. This is ok for people who are still able-bodied but not so good for those with a physical disability that affects their mobility..

Correct me if I am wrong but until such time that Irish Rail either defy gravity and can hover people down platforms or else physically carry people onto trains, some walking by passengers is inevitable

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but until such time that Irish Rail either defy gravity and can hover people down platforms or else physically carry people onto trains, some walking by passengers is inevitable

Yes but passengers should be allowed sit in unreserved seats in the front carriages when there are unreserved seats, especially if they are elderly or infirm. And most elderly people I know hate the idea of being "wheeled" up to the train when they can walk. Wouldn't it be nice to be nice and let then sit nearer the front of the train when seats are available?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So you was just being nosey then and dont know the full facts? What qualifies you to judge wether they overstepped their authority or not?
Bulllies, nazis, terrorists ? you are on form tonight Foggy Lad, i cant wait to see what else you accuse them of

With so few posts you seem to know a lot about my posting style? Do we know you under another name on boards?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

The person did not have a photo pass and afaik there was no problem with his pass but he may have said something about the time of the train that the ticket clerk did not like?

If he was rude or abusive to staff then he may well have been barred from traveling.

mikemac

foggy_lad wrote: »

With so few posts you seem to know a lot about my posting style? Do we know you under another name on boards?

Hilly Bill has join date August 2010
He mightn't post a lot but lots of time to read

I'm on other websites and I hardly ever post but I read constantly

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If he was rude or abusive to staff then he may well have been barred from traveling.

He was neither rude nor abusive, his comment was about the timings of the trains, the clerk seemed unhappy about a "free pass" questioning a service they get for nothing. The clerk then asked for id and again this freeloader had the gall to question the self inflated authority of an Irish rail clerk by asking why he wanted id and saying he did not have the right to insist on id.

Honestly if he had been even loud in any way I would probably have seen him in a different light but anyone could see from his face and expressions this young man was genuinely terrified of being left stranded in cork with little cash and no other way home

If this young man was your brother or son would you feel any different?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

He was neither rude nor abusive, his comment was about the timings of the trains, the clerk seemed unhappy about a "free pass" questioning a service they get for nothing. The clerk then asked for id and again this freeloader had the gall to question the self inflated authority of an Irish rail clerk by asking why he wanted id and saying he did not have the right to insist on id.

Honestly if he had been even loud in any way I would probably have seen him in a different light but anyone could see from his face and expressions this young man was genuinely terrified of being left stranded in cork with little cash and no other way home

If this young man was your brother or son would you feel any different?

Unless you were actually part of the conversation, you actually don't know for sure what went down and who said what so it's not wise for you to taking it all as fact.

If the RPU staff member was on hand, it's highly unlikely that it was a minor debate about train times, which in Cork are hourly on the half hour seven days a week to Dublin.

If the passenger was boarding on the Dublin-Cork train it's highly probable that they were from Dublin or Cork so they should have had an ID with their pass in any case.

Lastly, if you were so worried about his welfare then you should have lent him the train fare home

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

He was neither rude nor abusive, his comment was about the timings of the trains, the clerk seemed unhappy about a "free pass" questioning a service they get for nothing. The clerk then asked for id and again this freeloader had the gall to question the self inflated authority of an Irish rail clerk by asking why he wanted id and saying he did not have the right to insist on id.

Honestly if he had been even loud in any way I would probably have seen him in a different light but anyone could see from his face and expressions this young man was genuinely terrified of being left stranded in cork with little cash and no other way home

If this young man was your brother or son would you feel any different?

One of the recurring theme's of these types of F_L`s posts is how they are expanded upon as the thread progresses,thus we are now being informed as to the exact nature of the injured party's sotto-voce comment to the ticket clerk.

I'm assuming the transaction was through a screen of some sort ?

From F_L's rather detailed account of the conversation can we take it that he was involved at some level in the incident ?

Curiouser and Curiouser.....

Foggy_Lad: The person did not have a photo pass and afaik there was no problem with his pass but he may have said something about the time of the train that the ticket clerk did not like? I was close enough to see the RPU lettering in the id that the other supposed inspector produced and was close enough to hear most of the conversation even though the RPU person was trying to direct people away from the incident. They were just being bully's and seriously overstepped their authority and remit in this case IMHO.

There's a shed load of developmental stuff going on here,even in this account of one incident.

Elements which were in the realms of "May have" or "Most of" rather quickly firm up to become verbatim it seems,without any concrete evidence being produced of the alledged persecution.

In addition,and not for the first time we are assured of a posters ability to know what"most"people are thinking....

Foggy_Lad :And most elderly people I know hate the idea of being "wheeled" up to the train when they can walk. Wouldn't it be nice to be nice and let then sit nearer the front of the train when seats are available?

If it were only about being "nice" then the thread could be all sweetness and light,however it's not...it is yet another highly colourful and,as it progresses,embellished set of accusations against IE Staff based largely upon strongly held personal perceptions of what the poster deems to be acceptable conduct.

Nothing more-Nothing Less.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

One of the recurring theme's of these types of F_L`s posts is how they are expanded upon as the thread progresses,thus we are now being informed as to the exact nature of the injured party's sotto-voce comment to the ticket clerk.

I'm assuming the transaction was through a screen of some sort ?

From F_L's rather detailed account of the conversation can we take it that he was involved at some level in the incident ?

Curiouser and Curiouser.....



There's a shed load of developmental stuff going on here,even in this account of one incident.

Elements which were in the realms of "May have" or "Most of" rather quickly firm up to become verbatim it seems,without any concrete evidence being produced of the alledged persecution.

In addition,and not for the first time we are assured of a posters ability to know what"most"people are thinking....



If it were only about being "nice" then the thread could be all sweetness and light,however it's not...it is yet another highly colourful and,as it progresses,embellished set of accusations against IE Staff based largely upon strongly held personal perceptions of what the poster deems to be acceptable conduct.

Nothing more-Nothing Less.

It is about staff overstepping the mark and terrifying some poor unfortunate who had a free travel pass for whatever reason, the pass was in order and from the address there was no requirement for a photo pass and iirc I had said previously the person had to travel onwards after reaching Dublin before getting home.

I do hope the man does report the incident or maybe gets a family member to help him if he is unable to do it on his own as the behavior I witnessed is unacceptable.


Hypothetically if that young man had suffered some kind of stress related seizure or had a heart attack or some other misfortune as a direct result of having his pass wrongfully witheld would the clerk have filled out an incident report giving a true account of the incident or would he just go out and slip the pass into the guys pocket as he lay on the ground? In a case like that should the clerk be held personally responsible for overstepping their authority and causing the seizure/heart attack?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is about staff overstepping the mark and terrifying some poor unfortunate who had a free travel pass for whatever reason, the pass was in order and from the address there was no requirement for a photo pass and iirc I had said previously the person had to travel onwards after reaching Dublin before getting home.

So now you conveniently happen to know the address of this chap. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

foggy_lad wrote: »

Hypothetically if that young man had suffered some kind of stress related seizure or had a heart attack or some other misfortune as a direct result of having his pass wrongfully witheld would the clerk have filled out an incident report giving a true account of the incident or would he just go out and slip the pass into the guys pocket as he lay on the ground? In a case like that should the clerk be held personally responsible for overstepping their authority and causing the seizure/heart attack?

Honest to God but you really are talking a load of utter sloblocks here.

bazza1

IR staff travelling on free passes or discounted tickets must produce valid staff PTI cards or pay full fare. you need ID to fly Ryanair to Cork ffs! You need photo ID allthe time in New York.

foggy_lad

bazza1 wrote: »

IR staff travelling on free passes or discounted tickets must produce valid staff PTI cards or pay full fare. you need ID to fly Ryanair to Cork ffs! You need photo ID allthe time in New York.

That may be the case but free travel pass holders are not obliged To carry or show any form of id when using their pass.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So now you conveniently happen to know the address of this chap. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:



Honest to God but you really are talking a load of utter sloblocks here.

Not the persons address but that he was traveling onwards to somewhere in Wicklow on a bus Eireann coach, 133 or 2 maybe.

And if something happened to someone in my family because of actions of Irish rail staff which were not part of their duties I would have to hold them personally liable because you can be sure Irish rail would wash their hands of it claiming the person had overstepped their authority and had been reprimanded etc.