Should religion be taught in schools?

smash

Powerhouse wrote: »

Even if he asked a different question?

If he asked me my opinion he'd get it. To be honest I don't think he really cares though because I don't bring him to church so what he's being though about catholic religion isn't really backed up at home. Anyway he's too busy counting his moshi monsters cards to care about how jesus managed to walk on water.

Powerhouse wrote: »

You need to be far more pro-active if you believe that you are a participant in an indoctrination war.

It would only make me as bad as the religious preachers.

Powerhouse

Seachmall wrote: »

You're making a point you can't prove and a personal accusation with no grounds.

Bad form.

What did I accuse you of?

queenorganiser

True that catholism is very much beaten into us at a young age, but religion should still be taught at school. It teaches kids about morals and the whole 'Jesus walking on water' etc are all 'miracles' that only God/Jesus etc can perform as they are 'holy & devine'...

To avoid getting into the whole Religion examples... religion rules the world and is probably the main cause of war/deaths/greed/power.

Religion should be taught in schools but not just Catholism as it is unfair to brainwash your child into the one religion and not give them the option to choose when they are older.

True there are lack of resources in other subjects and the whole 'miracle' end of religion may confuse children.. but.. the mind of a child doesn't really always have the capacity to ask that many questions above how come, given that they don't get taught advanced chemistry/physics/biology in primary school.

That's like saying don't tell your child there is a Santa... because having to explain to your child that you lied to them all their lives isn't very trustworthy either....

The catholic church is corrupt to it's very core... there is a very small handful of actual religious priests who are genuine... the rest either like the pay rates/free house/free car and owning property in every parish...

please see... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zb0-yI3q9A

so many legit facts pointed out by the gentleman Stephen Fry.. have a listen...

but back to the school thing, it is good for a child to know about God, about right and wrong and about good and bad... getting too worked up over it when they are only babies is a bit much....

they can decide their own religion later in life... it didnt' do me any harm....

Tehachapi wrote: »

I have a big problem with this, and believe it is destroying childrens minds early on in life. Just today I am reading in the newspaper we have a huge shortage of science/maths/technology skilled people in this country. Here's my theory of 1 of the reasons why:

Does this start in childhood? I went to a catholic school and was taught all the christian bullsh1t, for example - you can't tell children in 1 class "Jesus walked on water" then in the next class teach them the scientific properties of water and expect them to understand it properly. Or that "Jesus turned a small amount of loaves/fishes into enough to feed thousands", then expect them not to be confused when being taught food science. One more example (I could list many more) , is resurrection. You can't teach children that magical resurrection after being dead for 3 days is possible, then expect them to properly understand biology. God putting man on earth, then expecting them to understand genetics, evolution, cells, etc.

Some will argue "oh those stories are just symbolic" - that is bullsh1t. There is no reference card indicating which parts of the bible are to be interpreted as fact, and which as symbolic. Why not just stamp it out altogether, stick to the facts and let them decide on a faith when they are adults , if they want to instead of it being rammed down their throats. These are young, innocent, highly impressionable children. Others will argue that they should be taught about all faiths like is being done for junior cert religion now, but again I find this nonsensical. If I make up a religion tomorrow, praising leprechaun ghosts- should that be taught about too? Where do you draw the line?

Powerhouse

steve06 wrote: »

It would only make me as bad as the religious preachers.

But you've said he needs to hear both sides? Seems unlikely that an answer to the occasional question hardly competes with the tsunami of indoctrination of the 'preachers'.

queenorganiser

your obviously one of those people who believed that the earth was flat until proven otherwise... or that... nothing fly as that is rediculous... oh wait... aerodynamics was invented....

if you were about a few century's ago.. you would have fit into society just perfectly....

really... your only pushing your disbeliefs on the internet... millions of you out there.. why waste your energy on it when your little voice is not going to be heard over the very powerful religious rulers....

but rant on... it's very amusing over this cuppa

Tehachapi wrote: »

They are stupid though. Really f**king stupid. Anyone who believes a man can do the following:

1. Defy the laws of physics and WALK on water
2. Transform small amounts of food into large amounts by magic
3. Resurrect themselves from the dead
4. Turn someone elses wife into a pillar of salt (seriously wtf?? I'd be on stage if I could write this stuff)
5. Turning a rod into a snake
6. Dividing a sea
7. Turning water into wine

Is an idiot. This isn't a personal insult against any particular person (i.e. I am staying within the confines of boards.ie rules) , just as I would state that anyone who believes some random nonsensical rubbish I make up (example: running backwards cures cancer) is also an idiot.

But hold on! Maybe that's unacceptable - however if I say "running backwards cures cancer" and this is part of my religious belief system - it's suddenly unacceptable to dismiss my statement as idiotic? Why?

Should we just let everyone in the world go around making public statements which are complete and utter nonsensical rubbish (such as running backwards curing cancer) for fear we might offend them? Isn't that dangerous?

Seachmall

Powerhouse wrote: »

What did I accuse you of?

Me? Nothing, but you sarcastically remarked how surprised you were that steve06 had told his child there is no God only once yet he feels so strong about the matter to repeatedly engage in the discussion, albeit implicitly.

Of course, maybe you were just making a general statement about your experiences on how restrained anonymous users are with no accusative undertones and maybe I just read too much into it.

smash

Powerhouse wrote: »

But you've said he needs to hear both sides? Seems unlikely that an answer to the occasional question hardly competes with the tsunami of indoctrination of the 'preachers'.

At this stage in his life if he asks a question I will give him my opinion. I will also not bring him to church or participate in any religious acts.

But I will refuse to sit down with him and ask him what he's been told and then disagree with it all because there's a chance that he will then start to ignore his teacher in other subject because I'm telling him she's wrong.

queenorganiser wrote: »

but back to the school thing, it is good for a child to know about God, about right and wrong and about good and bad...

Right and wrong has nothing to do with religion, it can be thought without a belief in a god.

barry711

I really don't think it should be taught in schools. I can't even see where and for what reason it even has a place in society anymore to be honest.

(Side bar) how can you actually "teach" religion to people? you can merely preach and indoctrinate it to them at best. You teach kids to read and spell and do sums.


I think the real danger lies within the larger gatherings of people such as the evangelicals if they get a hold of your kids. I watched a documentary called "Jesus camp" and it was nothing short of mind control/abuse/indoctrination and propaganda for children and adults alike. I won't post the link as I'm only new here and not sure if I'm allowed but its on youtube if I recall.

I think kids ought to be allowed to choose if they want to learn about religion in school.

Turtwig

barry711 wrote: »

I watched a documentary called "Jesus camp" and it was nothing short of mind control/abuse/indoctrination and propaganda for children and adults alike.

For anyone who might not know what that documentary is. Be warned this stuff is horrible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

MOSSAD

Religion has no place in the school. Rather teach kids about our system of government, the constitution and basically how to be a good and productive and active citizen. Superstitous claptrap needs to done away with. Eating the body and blood of a dead man, jihad and 72 virgins, rosh hashhanah and what everelse all sound like ingredients for a fantasy video game.

flutterflye

steve06 wrote: »

Catholisism is drilled into kids as if it's fact. I told my son that Jesus isn't real, he's like superman but not as cool. Because he's not going to make up his own mind when it's 1 sided.

Ha!

Eh.... are you serious?!

I have told my son that the other children in his class who are catholic believe in god, jesus, etc...
I have told him that myself and his dad are not catholic, and don't believe what they do.

When he has spoken about the issue, or asked questions, I am always very careful with my wording.
I tell him how it is neither right or wrong to believe in god, or not to believe in god.
I tell him that there are many, many different religions, and beliefs, and thoughts about where we came from, why we are here, where we go when we die, and so on, but no one knows which one is 'right', or if any of them are 'right', or if there is an answer at all.
I tell him how everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe, as long as it is not harmful.
And so on, depending on the content and context of his question.

As I have said earlier in the thread, he has been forced to learn religion, and partake in religious practices, for 3 out of his 4 years in school.

There have been days (mainly in the first 2 years) where he has come home and said things like "mom, the stupid catholics in my class think that jesus walked on water".
So, I every time this happened, I would sit him down and discuss it as I stated above, making sure he realised that he could not go about calling people stupid because of something they believe to be true, because no one knows if it's true or not.

I have told him that he can figure out what he believes, and doesn't believe himself, and that it is not something you just figure out in a day or two, it could take his entire life!

Needless to say, he's never satisfied by my lack o concrete answers!
But that is exactly the point I want to get across to him- that it is something personal, that requires alot of varied knowledge, and personal thought and reflection, and can change over time, with maturity and life experiences.

And just to note, while he has had catholisism taught to him on a regular basis for 3 years, he has not been brainwashed into believing any of it.

I think this might be rare enough though.
I know that I fully believed every adam and eve, loaves and fishes etc... story I was fed, until I was 12, and suddenly thought to myself "If there was a god who loved me, why would he take away the only person who ever really loved me?"

philologos wrote: »

That's a very simple thing to change. All you have to do is say "We as Christians believe X", or "Christians believe X". Many sermons I've heard in church even go along the lines of this. One could do that even in a faith school.

I agree with your post, especially with the part I highlighted.
At the moment, they do say "We as Christians believe X" - This I do not agree with, as it is unlikely these days for the whole class to be catholics.

Either they teach all major religions equally and without bias, with the focus on facts, history, mutual respect, different ideas, reasons, etc... with open class discussions,
Or they don't have religion within school hours at all.

Powerhouse

steve06 wrote: »

Right and wrong has nothing to do with religion, it can be thought without a belief in a god.

Indeed. And if you were familiar with the second-level curriculum you'd know that agnosticism and atheism are part of the course.

Powerhouse

MOSSAD wrote: »

Religion has no place in the school. Rather teach kids about our system of government, the constitution and basically how to be a good and productive and active citizen.

You haven't heard of CSPE then?

MOSSAD

Powerhouse wrote: »

You haven't heard of CSPE then?

It's not taught in all schools whereas religion appears to be almost mandatory, ie let's throw the teaching of religion out and nake CPSE mandatory.

Powerhouse

barry711 wrote: »

(Side bar) how can you actually "teach" religion to people? you can merely preach and indoctrinate it to them at best. You teach kids to read and spell and do sums.

The differentiation in words are merely your choice. For a teacher the same principles apply irrespective of the subject and some kids feels as indoctrinated in having to learn sums and spellings they have no interest in as they would ever do in religion.

Seachmall

MOSSAD wrote: »

It's not taught in all schools whereas religion appears to be almost mandatory, ie let's throw the teaching of religion out and nake CPSE mandatory.

It's mandatory for JC, religion isn't.

smash

Malty_T wrote: »

For anyone who might not know what that documentary is. Be warned this stuff is horrible.

F*cking psychopaths! Child protection services should remove their children from them.

smash

Powerhouse wrote: »

Indeed. And if you were familiar with the second-level curriculum you'd know that agnosticism and atheism are part of the course.

Are you implying I didn't go to school or something? I was never thought about agnosticism or atheism in school. Although I know the course has changed because I never did religion as a graded subject.

Powerhouse

MOSSAD wrote: »

It's not taught in all schools whereas religion appears to be almost mandatory, ie let's throw the teaching of religion out and nake CPSE mandatory.

Utter uninformed nonsense. In the 2010 Junior Cert just short of 55k students sat the CSPE paper (only English and Maths had more sits). Less than 26k sat Religion which is 'almost mandatory' (whatever the hell that means) according to you. At least get your facts in order before you distort them.

Powerhouse

steve06 wrote: »

Are you implying I didn't go to school or something? I was never thought about agnosticism or atheism in school. Although I know the course has changed because I never did religion as a graded subject.

I'm implying that you are unfamiliar what is taught and examined in the second-level religion (which if you don't work in a school/have a child in second-level would be understandable).

MOSSAD

Powerhouse wrote: »

Utter uninformed nonsense. In the 2010 Junior Cert just short of 55k students sat the CSPE paper (only English and Maths had more sits). Less than 26k sat Religion which is 'almost mandatory' (whatever the hell that means) according to you. At least get your facts in order before you distort them.

Religious instruction is pure and utter brainwashing, that's what I think, and has no place in schools. Chew on it.

Seachmall

MOSSAD wrote: »

Religious instruction is pure and utter brainwashing, that's what I think, and has no place in schools. Chew on it.

Teaching someone the facts about something is not indoctrinating them. It's just not.

Powerhouse

MOSSAD wrote: »

Religious instruction is pure and utter brainwashing, that's what I think, and has no place in schools. Chew on it.

So you've been exposed as talking complete bollox but there's no need to sulk! :P

smash

Powerhouse wrote: »

I'm implying that you are unfamiliar what is taught and examined in the second-level religion (which if you don't work in a school/have a child in second-level would be understandable).

I have zero problem with second-level religious studies being though as a selected informative subject. What I have a problem with, and what I gather most people are talking about is junior school religion.

flutterflye

Powerhouse wrote: »

Utter uninformed nonsense. In the 2010 Junior Cert just short of 55k students sat the CSPE paper (only English and Maths had more sits). Less than 26k sat Religion which is 'almost mandatory' (whatever the hell that means) according to you. At least get your facts in order before you distort them.

He is probably thinking of the way it used to be.
I think it all changed somwhere in the early 2000's.

He is right when he says it's almost mandatory.
If in a catholic school, unless the school is willing to remove the child during religion, and has the resources to do so, the child will have to attend religion class.
I am unsure if this is relevant at secondary level though.

smash

flutterflye wrote: »

If in a catholic school, unless the school is willing to remove the child during religion, and has the resources to do so, the child will have to attend religion class.
I am unsure if this is relevant at secondary level though.

I think most secondary level catholic schools will have a religion class which is mandatory and separate from a religious studies class. I know in my school we had mandatory confession too :rolleyes:

prinz

Not in primary school. At second level it should be an optional subject like everything else, and configured in a broader sense, i.e. world religions and none (which is how it was done when I did secondary 10-15 years ago) which encompassed a course going from agnosticism to zoroastrianism and everything in between (taught btw by a Catholic monk).

Powerhouse

steve06 wrote: »

I think most secondary level catholic schools will have a religion class which is mandatory and separate from a religious studies class. I know in my school we had mandatory confession too :rolleyes:

You think?! FFS!

Where do you think schools get the time?

Powerhouse

flutterflye wrote: »

He is right when he says it's almost mandatory.

I have already given the figures which show he is talking bunkum

smash

Powerhouse wrote: »

You think?! FFS!

Where do you think schools get the time?

Guess it depends what school you go to doesn't it. I know from personal experience and the experience of friends that went to catholic schools, there was mandatory religion class! My school even had a dedicated catholic religion teacher.

I don't even know what side of the fence you're on regarding this topic, you're just having a go at everyone by the looks of it.