Your right to an Abortion

Fluorescence

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No one listens to you!

That's true enough :pac:

Sharrow wrote: »

One thing I have noticed over the years is that young idealist young people often change their stance/position once they reach the start of their 20s and experience a pregnancy scare.

Or even once they just mellow out a bit. I was extremely anti-abortion a few years ago, until I immersed myself in the literature and formed an educated opinion (not saying the pro-lifers don't do this btw). Once I did so, I finally understood what it truly meant and how it actually affected all parties involved. I could sympathise with the women instead of condemning them for "killing" something I hadn't understood before.

EGAR

I have had an abortion when I was in my mid 20's, legally so in the country I was living at the time. I have not the slightest problem to talk about it. I had no mental problems afterwards either, all I felt was relief.

It was my choice, my right and I chose to have an abortion. I went home immensely relieved. As to contraception, here is one for you: I got pregnant despite contraception. I am no fool, it CAN happen and it did happen to me. Contraception does not equal 100% fool proof.

teaandtoast

EGAR wrote: »

I have had an abortion when I was in my mid 20's, legally so in the country I was living at the time. I have not the slightest problem to talk about it. I had no mental problems afterwards either, all I felt was relief.

It was my choice, my right and I chose to have an abortion. I went home immensely relieved. As to contraception, here is one for you: I got pregnant despite contraception. I am no fool, it CAN happen and it did happen to me. Contraception does not equal 100% fool proof.

Well i have had an abortion two years ago, it affects me a lot, it always will. I know what i have done, you will one day.

I believe in fate and what ever happens happens so maybe thats why contraception doesn't work 100% and 100% of the time, nothing is absloute especially mother nature.

Malari

teaandtoast wrote: »

Well i have had an abortion two years ago, it affects me a lot, it always will. I know what i have done, you will one day.

Again with the assuming you know how other people feel! Some will never regret an abortion, that's a fact! I'm sorry you are having trouble with what happened to you, I hope you have peace one day but don't think everyone feels like you do.

teaandtoast

God if most of the people on this thread governed the country there would be a lot less children and babies and my life would be without my neices. Thank God my cousin didn't take the esay way out even though she felt like it and her situation was very hard but she can see her daughter is a blessing in disguise.

EGAR

One day..? It has been 20 odd years since, I don't think a guilt trip will set in now . And I doubt I will have flashbacks on my death bed.

I am sorry that you are struggling. But you must accept the fact that not all people are the same.

Maple

teaandtoast wrote: »

Well i have had an abortion two years ago, it affects me a lot, it always will. I know what i have done, you will one day.

Stop trying to project your own feelings onto others. Everyone's situations is different.

I hope you find peace one day with your decision but it was your decision.

Maple

Silverfish

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating the wholesale termination of every foetus inside every pregnant woman, so can everyone stop acting like this is what people are proposing?

People who want a termination can still take the option of a termination by choosing to travel.
Some people feel it would be better if we stopped exporting our problem, and provided suitable facilities for these women on their home soil, rather than turning a blind eye to the fact they have to leave the country.

Whether abortion is legal or not in this country, people will still have abortions.

But please stop with the 'OMG THEY WANT TO ABORT ALL THE BABIES EVER' dramatics, it gets the debate nowhere.

Morag

oh teaandtoast you back, care to answer my questions from earlier?

Sharrow wrote: »

So teaandtoast are you now or have you ever been a member of YouthDefense/Spuc/mother&child/natural law party?


And how do you feel about the state sanctioned abortions which are carried out for ectopic pregnancies?

Stheno

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

That would be political suicide really to go near that.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I dont put much stock in polls tbh, the only ones that matter are referendums.

Haven't we had referendums where a majority of the people have mandated the government to legislate for abortion to be available in limited ways?

The government have failed to act on that, several successive ones.

Silverfish wrote: »

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating the wholesale termination of every foetus inside every pregnant woman, so can everyone stop acting like this is what people are proposing?

People who want a termination can still take the option of a termination by choosing to travel.
Some people feel it would be better if we stopped exporting our problem, and provided suitable facilities for these women on their home soil, rather than turning a blind eye to the fact they have to leave the country.

Whether abortion is legal or not in this country, people will still have abortions.

But please stop with the 'OMG THEY WANT TO ABORT ALL THE BABIES EVER' dramatics, it gets the debate nowhere.

+1 to the above!

EGAR

teaandtoast wrote: »

I believe in fate and what ever happens happens so maybe thats why contraception doesn't work 100% and 100% of the time, nothing is absloute especially mother nature.

See, I do not believe in fate, nor am I religious in any shape or form. I have no regrets whatsoever. It was a choice and I did not have to think long and hard about what the choice would be. Nor did I waste any time. There was a waiting period of two weeks during which I had to have two talks with the GP. After the two weeks my choice was still the same so I went ahead.

teaandtoast

Malari wrote: »

Again with the assuming you know how other people feel! Some will never regret an abortion, that's a fact! I'm sorry you are having trouble with what happened to you, I hope you have peace one day but don't think everyone feels like you do.

Thanks for wishing me well. I would never judge women who had abortion I just feel sorry for them. In many cases it does affect women mentally and psychologically.

There are also physical side affects and who is to know how many women die during abortion or the number who cannot have a child again or have complications as a result of having an abortion. There is also research showing that abortion is linked to breast cancer. Who is to know what it really does to women physically at any stage in their life after.

Maple

teaandtoast wrote: »

Well i have had an abortion two years ago, it affects me a lot, it always will. I know what i have done, you will one day.

teaandtoast wrote: »

God if most of the people on this thread governed the country there would be a lot less children and babies

People like you, you mean?

By your first statement, you're one of those people. You've had a termination, therefore as a result of your choice there is one less child in this country. I do not understand your logic.

EGAR

teaandtoast wrote: »

Thanks for wishing me well. I would never judge women who had abortion I just feel sorry for them. In many cases it does affect women mentally and psychologically.

There are also physical side affects and who is to know how many women die during abortion or the number who cannot have a child again or have complications as a result of having an abortion. There is also research showing that abortion is linked to breast cancer. Who is to know what it really does to women physically at any stage in their life after.

Sigh, no need to feel sorry for me. Save it for yourself since you seem to have immersed yourself in self pity over a decision that you yourself made.

I have a happy healthy soon to be 7 yro, no complications at all. You can't go and generalise for everyone else just because YOU feel that way, I find that patronizing in the extreme.

Morag

How about the medical drs who have been carrying out abortions for the last 50 years in the UK. They know, they have the stats they have done the research.

Legal abortion is safe and does not result in many women dying or having complications which result in fertility issues.

Stop with the myths and lies about abortion being linked to breast cancer and infertility and the one about depression and mental health risks.

This is the new discourse and tactics by pro life groups.
They present a woman who has had an abortion and wants to make sure other women never suffer what she did.

philologos

Silverfish wrote: »

People who want a termination can still take the option of a termination by choosing to travel.
Some people feel it would be better if we stopped exporting our problem, and provided suitable facilities for these women on their home soil, rather than turning a blind eye to the fact they have to leave the country.

Whether abortion is legal or not in this country, people will still have abortions.

Absolutely. I don't doubt this. What is interesting is to note that women abort only half the number of times in a given year that women will abort in Wales which has a similar population (Guardian figures here). In the same period Irish women had 4500 abortions according to statistics here.

If we're willing to drop the hysteria on both sides, it is important to note that nobody thinks it is ideal that a woman should have to have an abortion to begin with. It seems like the rational option to work towards preventing such situations from arising.

Also it is important to note that just because people do things it doesn't necessarily mean that they are moral. One could draw up any number of examples of things that will continue to happen that people find absolutely abhorrent.

Fluorescence

teaandtoast wrote: »

There are also physical side affects and who is to know how many women die during abortion or the number who cannot have a child again or have complications as a result of having an abortion. There is also research showing that abortion is linked to breast cancer. Who is to know what it really does to women physically at any stage in their life after.

The infertility and breast cancer myths have been debunked.

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

If we're willing to drop the hysteria on both sides.

That sounds like a good idea. But, isnt it true that you believe that the women on this forum who use the oral contraceptive pilll are conciously doing an act that is morally akin to killing another human, given that the oral contraceptive pilll can potentially kill the conceptus?

Is there not a hint of hysteria in that position?

WesternNight

philologos wrote: »

If we're willing to drop the hysteria on both sides. Nobody thinks it is ideal that a woman should have to have an abortion to begin with. It seems like the rational option to work towards preventing such situations from arising.

That kind of goes without saying, surely? I've never once heard someone say they'd rather have an abortion than not be pregnant in the first place..

Also it is important to note that just because people do things it doesn't necessarily mean that they are moral.

The reverse is also true.

teaandtoast

Its all one sided. Needless to say the thread is entitled 'you right to abortion' that says it all, the tread title agrees and confirms that abortion is a right so whats was the point in making a thread about it? Most of posters here believe abortion is a right in most cases.

In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate. There are two sides to a debate the title of the thread says it all that 'its your right to abortion' before the debate ever began it was onesided from the start. Fairness is fairness. honestly.

philologos

drkpower wrote: »

That sounds like a good idea. But, isnt it true that you believe that the women on this forum who use the oral contraceptive pilll are conciously doing an act that is morally akin to killing another human, given that the oral contraceptive pilll can potentially kill the conceptus?

Is there not a hint of hysteria in that position?

Make what you will of this:

philologos wrote: »

I would personally understand a contraceptive as a device that prevents conception. I'm not personally opposed to any device that fits into this definition. Seems logical given that the name splits up as such. Although I am open to being convinced on this one, I don't see a huge difference between the pre and post implantation embryos apart from location.

Now that I have the opportunity I'm going to ask you what sources you have to suggest that the OCP, or every OCP produces the effect of killing the embryo? I'd be interested in reading your case in full.

I don't consider my position hysterical really insofar as I'm trying to reason this out rather than just ignoring it.

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

Now that I have the opportunity I'm going to ask you what sources you have to suggest that the OCP, or every OCP produces the effect of killing the embryo? I'd be interested in reading your case in full.

I didnt say that every OCP kills the conceptus. But one of the well-established potential mechanisms of action of the OCP is to kill the conceptus. In other words, when a woman uses the OCP, they are acting in a manner that may kill a conceptus.

So, on that basis, do you believe that the women on this forum who use the oral contraceptive pilll are conciously doing an act that is morally akin to killing another human?

philologos

Can you deal with my post satisfactorily first? - If the OCP doesn't fit the definition I've given above I'd like to know as to why with sources.

Morag

teaandtoast wrote: »

Its all one sided. Needless to say the thread is entitled 'you right to abortion' that says it all, the tread title agrees and confirms that abortion is a right so whats was the point in making a thread about it? Most of posters here believe abortion is a right in most cases.

In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate. There are two sides to a debate the title of the thread says it all that 'its your right to abortion' before the debate ever began it was onesided from the start. Fairness is fairness. honestly.

So you won't answer questions put to you, and none of the standard pro life tactics you have used have worked and now you are saying the whole thread is unfair?

Stheno

teaandtoast wrote: »

Its all one sided. Needless to say the thread is entitled 'you right to abortion' that says it all, the tread title agrees and confirms that abortion is a right so whats was the point in making a thread about it? Most of posters here believe abortion is a right in most cases.

No most posters who are arguing for the pro choice side here believe that the choice should be available to women to choose whether or not they have an abortion.

In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate. There are two sides to a debate the title of the thread says it all that 'its your right to abortion' before the debate ever began it was onesided from the start. Fairness is fairness. honestly.

One could argue that given the OP, which was about counter protesting against a pro life protest, that the entire wider discussion that has happened is OT?

You've exercised that right yourself, had that right not been available to you to travel etc and have an abortion do you think your life now would be completely different?

Stheno

philologos wrote: »

Make what you will of this:


Now that I have the opportunity I'm going to ask you what sources you have to suggest that the OCP, or every OCP produces the effect of killing the embryo? I'd be interested in reading your case in full.

I don't consider my position hysterical really insofar as I'm trying to reason this out rather than just ignoring it.

I don't have sources, perhaps someone else does, but my understanding of the OCP is that it prevents the lining of the womb which is required for implantation from being formed, therefore providing an inhospitable environment for an embryo?

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

Can you deal with my post satisfactorily first? - If the OCP doesn't fit the definition I've given above I'd like to know as to why with sources.

FFS!
The effect on endometrial receptivity (ie. preventing implantation) of the OCP has been known for quite some time. There are some studies that determine that it is a very very rare MoA; there are many others that consider it to be a likely MoA.

What is certain is that taking the OCP may cause the death of the conceptus.

So again, do you believe that the women on this forum who use the oral contraceptive pilll are conciously doing an act that is morally akin to killing another human, or at least, that it is morally akin to killing another human through recklessness?

Wolfe Tone

teaandtoast wrote: »

Its all one sided. Needless to say the thread is entitled 'you right to abortion' that says it all, the tread title agrees and confirms that abortion is a right so whats was the point in making a thread about it? Most of posters here believe abortion is a right in most cases.

In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate. There are two sides to a debate the title of the thread says it all that 'its your right to abortion' before the debate ever began it was onesided from the start. Fairness is fairness. honestly.

This issue is like national question threads over in politics, trenches are dug, people get angry, gets personalized, bit of half hearted moderation to try and stem the tide, followed by a lull in which only a handful remain, followed by a lock.

As is often the case in threads like this people can be intimidated and not post their views, they sit back and read, or simply ignore the thread, or maybe PM the people arguing against the tide to say they support them and agree, but wont say so themselves.

I used to take threads on boards much more seriously, but its pointless doing that.

philologos

drkpower: Great. I'm just asking you for some sources so I can look at this before leaping down the rabbit hole. I think I may have prematurely gone down that line of thought without giving it the proper consideration that I should have done, that's why I'm asking you to help me out with this.

teaandtoast

Stheno wrote: »

No most posters who are arguing for the pro choice side here believe that the choice should be available to women to choose whether or not they have an abortion.



One could argue that given the OP, which was about counter protesting against a pro life protest, that the entire wider discussion that has happened is OT?

You've exercised that right yourself, had that right not been available to you to travel etc and have an abortion do you think your life now would be completely different?

Well i think i am the only pro life person here. Most people in Ireland are pro life. Yea my life would be different if i didn't go ahead with it but it better and would be happier.