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Your right to an Abortion

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    #362
    WesternNight
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate.

    Unless I've misunderstood things entirely, this thread was started to find out the thoughts of the posters of the Ladies' Lounge in light of the demonstration in Dublin the other day. So, perhaps it's just that more posters favour choice than no choice. It was never trying to be a balanced debate, as such.. just to discuss our opinions.


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    #363
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    drkpower: Great. I'm just asking you for some sources so I can look at this before leaping down the rabbit hole. I think I may have prematurely gone down that line of thought without giving it the proper consideration that I should have done, that's why I'm asking you to help me out with this.

    In fairness, I told you about this MoA n another thread months ago. Did you not do some cursory googling?

    Anyway, here is a very balanced paper that mentions both the reports that suggest the OCP does prevent implantation and others which come to the conclusion that it does not.
    http://ec.princeton.edu/references/Mechanism_of_action_Contraception2006.pdf

    So, as I said, given the fact that the OCP may kill the conceptus, do you believe that the women on this forum who use the oral contraceptive pilll are conciously doing an act that is morally akin to killing another human, or at least, that it is morally akin to killing another human through recklessness?


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    #364
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    All artificial hormonal contraception no matter what the deliver method is, pill, patch, impants, nuvaring thin the lining of the womb which can prevent implantation.


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    #365
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Its all one sided. Needless to say the thread is entitled 'you right to abortion' that says it all, the tread title agrees and confirms that abortion is a right so whats was the point in making a thread about it? Most of posters here believe abortion is a right in most cases.

    In a debate, maths will tell you that one person can't argue their point with several people people on the opposite side. So the thread is not actually a debate. There are two sides to a debate the title of the thread says it all that 'its your right to abortion' before the debate ever began it was onesided from the start. Fairness is fairness. honestly.

    As of last night, I am new to this thread. I have posted about my experience with abortion and the fact that I have had a normal pregnancy 7 years ago. Fair enough for you?


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    #366
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower: I'm going to decline to answer the question as I need to read up a good deal on this. Admittedly I've had a lot of non-Boards (philosophy stuff) reading I've needed to do over the last while so no I didn't get around to reading in depth.


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    #367
    teaandtoast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭teaandtoast


    Sharrow wrote: »
    So you won't answer questions put to you, and none of the standard pro life tactics you have used have worked and now you are saying the whole thread is unfair?

    Yes the thread is one-sided i am the only pro-life person here.

    Well ectopic pregnancies are a risk to a women's life. Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.


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    #368
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I'm going to decline to answer the question as I need to read up a good deal on this. Admittedly I've had a lot of non-Boards (philosophy stuff) reading I've needed to do over the last while so no I didn't get around to reading in depth.

    :)You didnt do any reading about this when i told you about it months ago?

    Yet, you claim that the conceptus has the same rights as a born human. If there was a widely prescribed medicine that was potentially killing millions of 2 year old babies worldwide, would you be so laissez-faire about your response to finding out about it......?!

    Do you not think that you should just accept that you do not, in fact, value the foetus as much as you value a born human life? Its obvious to everyone else.


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    #369
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Well i think i am the only pro life person here.

    Nope, you're not.
    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Most people in Ireland are pro life.

    I wouldn't be so sure. Previous referendums have shown a majority would like some form of abortion available in this country (with strict restrictions admittedly), but governments have chosen not to act on them.
    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Yea my life would be different if i didn't go ahead with it but it better and would be happier.

    Just because you regret your decision (a very difficult one too, I imagine) does not mean you can or should make the decision for any other woman. Not all will have the experience you did. For some people it is the right thing.


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    #370
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Yes the thread is one-sided i am the only pro-life person here.

    Well ectopic pregnancies are a risk to a women's life. Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.

    How is it okay in the case of rape? it's the same unborn child?


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    #371
    teaandtoast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭teaandtoast


    EGAR wrote: »
    As of last night, I am new to this thread. I have posted about my experience with abortion and the fact that I have had a normal pregnancy 7 years ago. Fair enough for you?

    Well thank God, that is you. Not all women are the same, do some research and see for yourself


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    #372
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Well i think i am the only pro life person here. Most people in Ireland are pro life. Yea my life would be different if i didn't go ahead with it but it better and would be happier.

    With all due respect, you don't know that. You don't.

    You made the decision that you did because it was the best decision for you at that particular time in your life, given the resources you had available to you at that particular time.

    You did what you had to do at that particular time. Back then.

    I feel for you because it sounds like you regret your decision and that you're looking back at that time in your life from this time in your life, you feel you would be able to have a child now but you're forgetting that at that time you didn't feel that way.

    It sounds like you're judging yourself harshly and unfairly and I think that incredibly sad.

    I don't mean to offend nor condemn you either.


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    #373
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Yes the thread is one-sided i am the only pro-life person here.

    Well ectopic pregnancies are a risk to a women's life. Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.
    Why in the case of rape and incest?

    Thats a dangerous standard imo, especially the rape bit. How can it 100% be proved she was raped? Or whats to stop evil women from claiming that they where raped when they discover they are pregnant?


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    #374
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.

    That's not very pro-life.


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    #375
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Yes the thread is one-sided i am the only pro-life person here.

    Well ectopic pregnancies are a risk to a women's life. Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.

    Acceptable according to whom?


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    #376
    Michellenman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭Michellenman


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Why in the case of rape and incest?

    Thats a dangerous standard imo, especially the rape bit. How can it 100% be proved she was raped? Or whats to stop evil women from claiming that they where raped when they discover they are pregnant?


    You've got to be joking?


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    #377
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    ted1 wrote: »
    I'm anti abortion buy that's my belief and ever body is entitled to their own belief I just really hate the way everbody tries to force their belief upon others. That goes for both sides of the argument.

    But saying everyone is entitled to their own belief means that life does not have an intrinsic value. Its only extrinsic depending on what a person thinks.

    Life has value, The person has value, not matter what laws are passed, the person is a constant that can't change and must be respected from when that person comes to being.

    But as usual my comment will be taken as a religious point of view. When the Intrinsic value of the person is a universal right that rises above all religious views.


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    #378
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Why in the case of rape and incest?

    Thats a dangerous standard imo, especially the rape bit. How can it 100% be proved she was raped? Or whats to stop evil women from claiming that they where raped when they discover they are pregnant?

    Oh how I detest the word "evil" being bandied around.


    It does strike me as hypocritical though that someone could believe abortion is essentially murder, but it's ok if the woman was raped incestuously. It would still be murder, going by that logic :confused:


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    #379
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Michellenman wrote: »
    You've got to be joking?
    No, I'm not joking.


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    #380
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Well thank God, that is you. Not all women are the same, do some research and see for yourself

    No, I wouldn't thank a (to me) non existing Deity. I have done research and neither your infertility nor your breast cancer argument is true. It has been thoroughly disproven.


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    #381
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Yes the thread is one-sided i am the only pro-life person here.

    Well ectopic pregnancies are a risk to a women's life. Abortion is acceptable if the women's life is at risk and in the case of rape and incest.

    So you are not pro life, you are pro abortion with strict limits.


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    #382
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    No, I'm not joking.
    Are you really saying that a woman who procures an abortion at, lets say, 6 weeks is evil then?

    That is some position to take when, in the space fo a few hours yesterday, you were questioning and then changing your own position on the abortion question.


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    #383
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Oh how I detest the word "evil" being bandied around.


    It does strike me as hypocritical though that someone could believe abortion is essentially murder, but it's ok if the woman was raped incestuously. It would still be murder, going by that logic :confused:
    Maybe I wasn't clear, but when I say "evil" I was referring to a woman who would falsely accuse a man of rape. Thats evil in my book.

    Allowing abortions if a woman is raped could lead to desperate women claiming that they were raped i order to get an abortion.

    Yes I would agree, it would still be wrong, it is not the childs fault that his/her father was some sort of monster


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    #384
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower: Patience is indeed a virtue :)


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    #385
    teaandtoast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭teaandtoast


    bluewolf wrote: »
    How is it okay in the case of rape? it's the same unborn child?

    Well yea its an unborn child but asking a woman who is traumatised by rape to bare the consequences of rape and bring a child in to the world is not right. The women should be have the right to have an abortion if she decides to do so.


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    #386
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    There is one other thing I feel I need to make clear before I continue to post on this thread. I have posted about my experience, the emphasis lies on MY.

    I have no intention of *converting* anti-abortion peeps to my way of thinking.


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    #387
    WesternNight
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    This is another thing I've never understood... if you think so lowly of someone to think them evil, you'd be happy enough to let the child of this 'evil' woman come into such an environment? How can you reconcile that..?


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    #388
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Maybe I wasn't clear, but when I say "evil" I was referring to a woman who would falsely accuse a man of rape. Thats evil in my book.

    Allowing abortions if a woman is raped could lead to desperate women claiming that they were raped i order to get an abortion.

    It is a truly despicable thing, yes. Evil, no. The word paints the whole thing in an overly simplistic fashion.
    Wolfe Tone wrote:
    Yes I would agree, it would still be wrong, it is not the childs fault that his/her father was some sort of monster

    Which is what makes the "I'm anti-abortion, except in the case of rape/incest/severe deformity" argument so invalid. Either you're anti-abortion or you're not.


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    #389
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I wonder how many adamant pro-lifers would adopt a child not belonging to them, not many, if any at all I'd wager. Seems they're only concerned with the unborn, once they're born then its societies problem to deal with.


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    #390
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    krudler wrote: »
    I wonder how many adamant pro-lifers would adopt a child not belonging to them, not many, if any at all I'd wager. Seems they're only concerned with the unborn, once they're born then its societies problem to deal with.
    There will always be people to adopt children, there is a shortage of kids atm.

    In addition you may very well have gay couples adopting.


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    #391
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    fluorescence wrote: »



    Which is what makes the "I'm anti-abortion, except in the case of rape/incest/severe deformity" argument so invalid. Either you're anti-abortion or you're not.

    This, a child concieved by rape doesnt have the same right to live as one concieved by accident apparently.


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