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Your right to an Abortion

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    #842
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    Just a few notes on this conversation from a couple of the books I read last year.

    Theresa Iglesias in her book The Dignity of the Individual points out that the empirical facts of mammalian embryonic development are not up for dispute. What is critical is the interpretation that we hold regarding the status of these embryos. One’s conclusion is defined by one’s moral vision. She also suggests that because we have a hard time imagining that a small cluster of cells can be a human being, it's actually a lack of imagination that leads to seeing abortion as a viable option more than anything else.

    Leon Kass in Towards a More Natural Science beautifully illustrates this point. The Hebrew preoccupation with birth was the inheritance of the son from the father and so they called it “begetting”. The Greeks, impressed by the springing forth of new life, called it “genesis”. The pre-modern Christian world, captivated by the Creator God, called it pro-creation.

    And the modern world, mechanised and technologised, calls it “reproduction”. Pretty inadequate view imo.


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    #843
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Who is Prolife here?

    If you read through the thread you'll get a fairly clear view of posters opinions on the issue.


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    #844
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    Stheno wrote: »
    If you read through the thread you'll get a fairly clear view of posters opinions on the issue.

    Well i am just asking who is prolife, i am.

    There are too many to read through to know who is on what side. It's hard to tell.


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    #845
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Who is Prolife here?

    facepalm.jpg


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    #846
    sambuka41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sambuka41


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    She also suggests that because we have a hard time imagining that a small cluster of cells can be a human being, it's actually a lack of imagination that leads to seeing abortion as a viable option more than anything else.

    I don't agree with that, personally I have no problem accepting that a cluster of cells is potential human life AND being ok with abortion as an option. As I have said it is a stage of the development of a human life a cluster of cells, feotus, baby, child......

    From reading this thread thats where the pro life people seem to get confused, when someone who is pro choice can say, yes I agree it is potential human life and yes I still think abortion should be an option. They are stumped by it!!!


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    #847
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well i am just asking who is prolife, i am..
    Pro-life can mean many different things. What does it mean to you?


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    #848
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOBq-Wi4TQ


    *shudder* (the sound improves after a minute)

    That being said, one thing this discussion has taught me is that they really, really really, truly in their hearts of hearts believe that, from the moment of conception, there is something "alive". And so, while I abhor being called a "murderer", I admire their conviction and determination. That's truly what they believe and they are going to fight to keep it.

    If only us pro-choice people could be as organised.


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    #849
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well i am just asking who is prolife, i am.

    There are too many to read through to know who is on what side. It's hard to tell.
    And bear in mind that many posters are not on any 'side' - this may be why it's hard to pigeonhole everybody.


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    #850
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Suaimhneach wrote: »
    That being said, one thing this discussion has taught me is that they really, really really, truly in their hearts of hearts believe that, from the moment of conception, there is something "alive".
    But many pro-choice people, including myself and others on this thread, believe that from the moment of conception, there is something "alive".


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    #851
    sambuka41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sambuka41


    Suaimhneach wrote: »
    That being said, one thing this discussion has taught me is that they really, really really, truly in their hearts of hearts believe that, from the moment of conception, there is something "alive". And so, while I abhor being called a "murderer", I admire their conviction and determination. That's truly what they believe and they are going to fight to keep it.

    Yeah I think this thread has taught me that too, there are the zealots who just want everything to stay the same ALWAYS. But for the most part people are genuine in their belief. :)


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    #852
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    From reading many of the posts, I can tell who is pro-choice, pro-abortion and who is inbetween both but its hard to tell who is prolife here that is why I asked.


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    #853
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    decembersun77, please use the standard font.


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    #854
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭seenitall


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Theresa Iglesias in her book The Dignity of the Individual points out that the empirical facts of mammalian embryonic development are not up for dispute. What is critical is the interpretation that we hold regarding the status of these embryos. One’s conclusion is defined by one’s moral vision. She also suggests that because we have a hard time imagining that a small cluster of cells can be a human being, it's actually a lack of imagination that leads to seeing abortion as a viable option more than anything else.

    How so? I'm sure there are plenty of pro-choicers out there (including myself) who are perfectly able to "imagine" (know) that embryo is a human life/being. It's just that I don't fancy relinquishing my right to decline being a host to another human being for 9 months.

    EDIT: sambuka41 beat me to it... I'm the slowest typist ever!!:D


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    #855
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    sambuka41 wrote: »
    From reading this thread thats where the pro life people seem to get confused, when someone who is pro choice can say, yes I agree it is potential human life and yes I still think abortion should be an option. They are stumped by it!!!

    I assure you, I have no confusion regarding the pro choice position. I'm not sure either why you think anyone would be stumped by the idea that you fully understand the implications of performing an abortion and simultaneously agree with it. It's hardly rocket science...the autonomy of the individual is of higher value to you than the potential of human life.

    Personally I could never agree...but of course that's just my rampant individualism talking. :pac:


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    #856
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    seenitall wrote: »
    How so? I'm sure there are plenty of pro-choicers out there (including myself) who are perfectly able to "imagine" (know) that embryo is a human life/being. It's just that I don't fancy relinquishing my right to decline being a host to another human being for 9 months.

    You haven't made any new point. You've simply reasserted that you are in favour of abortion. Iglesias is quite clearly talking about our interpretation of the status of the embryo, shaped by our values. Which you have expressed perfectly.


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    #857
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    From reading many of the posts, I can tell who is pro-choice, pro-abortion and who is inbetween both but its hard to tell who is prolife here that is why I asked.

    I think most people are pro life...or at least, I don't know many people who are anti life...do you mean anti abortion? Anti contraceptive? Anti MAP? Or all of the above?


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    #858
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    drkpower wrote: »
    But many pro-choice people, including myself and others on this thread, believe that from the moment of conception, there is something "alive".
    Sorry, I mean, something is alive. Cells are, of course, but not a full human. I dont want to get drawn into the conversation about when a human exists, as I can see from this thread it goes into circles, and, I am not an expert. I leave those decisions to the medical experts.


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    #859
    sambuka41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sambuka41


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    I assure you, I have no confusion regarding the pro choice position. I'm not sure either why you think anyone would be stumped by the idea that you fully understand the implications of performing an abortion and simultaneously agree with it. It's hardly rocket science...the autonomy of the individual is of higher value to you than the potential of human life.

    Personally I could never agree...but of course that's just my rampant individualism talking. :pac:

    I guess its the point of the debate where things end, because neither side can really agree with the other. Some people on here and outside here do have difficulty accepting the rights of the woman, they don't understand it.


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    #860
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    drkpower wrote: »
    Pro-life can mean many different things. What does it mean to you?

    Well pro-life means the right to life of the unborn-thats what the pro-life movement is about. I am against abortion except in the case of incest, rape and if the mother's life is at risk.


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    #861
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    sambuka41 wrote: »
    I guess its the point of the debate where things end, because neither side can really agree with the other. Some people on here and outside here do have difficulty accepting the rights of the woman, they don't understand it.

    /end thread :pac:


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    #862
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭seenitall


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    I assure you, I have no confusion regarding the pro choice position. I'm not sure either why you think anyone would be stumped by the idea that you fully understand the implications of performing an abortion and simultaneously agree with it. It's hardly rocket science...the autonomy of the individual is of higher value to you than the potential of human life.

    Personally I could never agree...but of course that's just my rampant individualism talking. :pac:

    sambuka41 and myself were responding to your summary of that author's book?

    Why did you make that point if you don't think it relevant? (The point that pro-choicers may lack imagination to realise embryos are human beings etc.)


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    #863
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well pro-life means the right to life of the unborn-thats what the pro-life movement is about. I am against abortion except in the case of incest, rape and if the mother's life is at risk.

    That is not very pro-life? Why do you condemn these babies?


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    #864
    sambuka41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sambuka41


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well pro-life means the right to life of the unborn-thats what the pro-life movement is about. I am against abortion except in the case of incest, rape and if the mother's life is at risk.

    But if you believe that the foetus has right to life, why would the foetus of a rapist or through incest be any less deserving of life???


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    #865
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭seenitall


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    You haven't made any new point. You've simply reasserted that you are in favour of abortion. Iglesias is quite clearly talking about our interpretation of the status of the embryo, shaped by our values. Which you have expressed perfectly.

    Eh? I asserted my position as being pro-choice while knowing what that author suspects that I don't, or don't have imagination enough to imagine. Because that's the point you were making, right?


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    #866
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well pro-life means the right to life of the unborn-thats what the pro-life movement is about. I am against abortion except in the case of incest, rape and if the mother's life is at risk.

    So you're pro choice so?

    Why then are you so keen to know who is pro-life?


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    #867
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    seenitall wrote: »
    sambuka41 and myself were responding to your summary of that author's book?

    Why did you make that point if you don't think it relevant? (The point that pro-choicers may lack imagination to realise embryos are human beings etc.)

    That was not a summary of the author's book: it was a suggestion that she made in it. A summary might be that human life life has an intrinsic value and our cultural norms should by rights reflect that.

    I made the point because it is a common, tired and long-running argument that "It's not a baby; it's a cluster of cells" or "It's a parasite". This may or may not apply to your own position.

    By the way, can anyone recommend a good, non-emotive book that argues in favour of abortion? I've read a few papers by Peter Singer but little else. He takes abortion to its logical conclusion which is, by any standards, a fairly grotesque place.


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    #868
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I think most people are pro life...or at least, I don't know many people who are anti life...do you mean anti abortion? Anti contraceptive? Anti MAP? Or all of the above?

    Well i am against abortion. Kourtney Kardashian was going to have an abortion but she saw the shocking pictures of how it happens and that changed her mind. I know she is wealthy and has supportive family etc. It's not that easy for everyone. I think many women have abortions because of their life and financial circumstances. No one can be an Island one woman cannot do everything, if you don't have an okay partner, supportive family and friends around you and are on welfare living in a little bedsit with not much prospects and have a mental health problem I can understand very well why women in very hard circumstances have an abortion because they don't where to turn.


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    #869
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭seenitall


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    That was not a summary of the author's book: it was a suggestion that she made in it. A summary might be that human life life has an intrinsic value and our cultural norms should by rights reflect that.

    I made the point because it is a common, tired and long-running argument that "It's not a baby; it's a cluster of cells" or "It's a parasite". This may or may not apply to your own position.

    OK so, you brought forward a point, and I responded to that specific point of your post - a perfectly logical thing to do, don't you think? If you wanted me to make "any new point", you could have asked, I'm sure I'd be able to come up with something! :pac:

    EDIT: Oh, and btw, it is a human life AND a parasite (as explained earlier in the thread).


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    #870
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    Stheno wrote: »
    So you're pro choice so?

    Why then are you so keen to know who is pro-life?

    No, im pro-life. Because I wanted to know if i am alone in my opinion thats why i asked.


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    #871
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well i am against abortion. Kourtney Kardashian was going to have an abortion but she saw the shocking pictures of how it happens and that changed her mind. I know she is wealthy and has supportive family etc. It's not that easy for everyone. I think many women have abortions because of their life and financial circumstances. No one can be an Island one woman cannot do everything, if you don't have an okay partner, supportive family and friends around you and are on welfare living in a little bedsit with not much prospects and have a mental health problem I can understand very well why women in very hard circumstances have an abortion because they don't where to turn.

    So you are prochoice in the case of victims of rape, incest, risk of life to the mother, and also consider individual circumstances as above to be justification for abortion?

    Sounds more and more pro-choice to me as I read it.

    Pro-life people believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances.


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