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Your right to an Abortion

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    #872
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    No, im pro-life..
    I guess you can call yourself anything but your expressed views suggest that you are far from pro-lfe. It would be more accurate to say that you are pro-abortion in certain circumstances.

    Would you like to explain why you advocate abortion in the case of rape and incest?

    And perhaps you might explain how such a system might work in practice?


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    #873
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    sambuka41 wrote: »
    But if you believe that the foetus has right to life, why would the foetus of a rapist or through incest be any less deserving of life???

    They are not less deserving of life but if the women was forced to do something she didn't want to so if she wants to have a baby or not its her choice.


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    #874
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    They are not less deserving of life but if the women was forced to do something she didn't want to so if she wants to have a baby or not its her choice.

    say like being forced to carry a pregnancy to term, if she didn't want to do so?


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    #875
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    They are not less deserving of life but if the women was forced to do something she didn't want to so if she wants to have a baby or not its her choice.

    what about those women in bedsits with tough circumstances?


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    #876
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well i am against abortion. Kourtney Kardashian was going to have an abortion but she saw the shocking pictures of how it happens and that changed her mind. I know she is wealthy and has supportive family etc. It's not that easy for everyone. I think many women have abortions because of their life and financial circumstances. No one can be an Island one woman cannot do everything, if you don't have an okay partner, supportive family and friends around you and are on welfare living in a little bedsit with not much prospects and have a mental health problem I can understand very well why women in very hard circumstances have an abortion because they don't where to turn.

    I don't think anyone can possibly think abortion is going to be unicorns and rainbows - women experience periods, most will have experienced heavy periods, even they are not pleasant - throw in an embryo or foetus and of course it's not going to be anything other than shocking.

    However, regardless of how unpleasant the thought, the reality or the language, none of it changes the fact that women should have the choice to decide for themselves what choice is best for them, based on their own circumstances out-with the arbitrary acceptability of rape, incest and health issues, rather than just the cowardly status quo of enshrining the right to export the issue.


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    #877
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    drkpower wrote: »
    I guess you can call yourself anything but your expressed views suggest that you are far from pro-lfe. It would be more accurate to say that you are pro-abortion in certain circumstances.

    Would you like to explain why you advocate abortion in the case of rape and incest?

    And perhaps you might explain how such a system might work in practice?

    How could you say I am pro abortion? I am prolife in my heart of hearts as hard as a situation is, it is wrong to end life no matter what the circumstances of the pregnancies are..but my mind is in conflict. I am more pro-life than pro choice. If i am pregnant in very hard circumstances I would go with my heart I always do.


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    #878
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    I am pro-life. I like life. I mean, I fu(king LOVE living.

    One of the missions I have is to figure out better names for the groups. I (from a suggestion in this thread) refer to "pro-lifers" as "anti-choice" now. But I am all for LIFE, life is awesome.

    They shouldn't be called pro-lifers, it's not accurate. Or, if it is accurate for them (which, I guess technically they will argue it is) it's not an exclusive term, because I am also pro-life, and pro-choice.

    Any suggestions?


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    #879
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    They are not less deserving of life but if the women was forced to do something she didn't want to so if she wants to have a baby or not its her choice.

    So if she gets pregnant accidentally through consensual sex, she shouldn't be allowed to abort because it's her own damn fault? If she's raped though, it's fine and dandy cause it wasn't her fault. Nice logic there.


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    #880
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    How could you say I am pro abortion?
    Because you advocate abortion in certain circumstances, including in the case of 'very hard circumstances' which sounds like very broad criteria.

    Have you thought about how such a system of abortion in the case of rape, incest or 'very hard circumstances' might work in practice?


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    #881
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    How could you say I am pro abortion?

    You support abortion in the case of women who have been victims of rape/incest, where there is a risk to the life of the mother, and where women have very tough circumstances.

    Someone who was anti-abortion would not.


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    #882
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    Stheno wrote: »
    what about those women in bedsits with tough circumstances?

    I don't know she should follow her heart and seek advice and support


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    #883
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    drkpower wrote: »

    Have you thought about how such a system of abortion in the case of rape, incest or 'very hard circumstances' might work in practice?

    Actually just in terms of the rape situation, one of the countries in the link I posted yesterday about EU abortion laws, had a criteria that it was available in the case of rape, but a police report in relation to the rape had to be submitted prior to the abortion.


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    #884
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    Actually just in terms of the rape situation, one of the countries in the link I posted yesterday about EU abortion laws, had a criteria that it was available in the case of rape, but a police report in relation to the rape had to be submitted prior to the abortion.
    And what would the police report say? That the woman had alleged she was raped? Would that be sufficient to warrant an abortion?

    The problem is that a system whioch relies on a mere allegation willl result in 'abuse' of that criteria. A system whioch requires something more substantive criteria (like a conviction) will result in incredible injustice.


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    #885
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Stheno wrote: »
    Actually just in terms of the rape situation, one of the countries in the link I posted yesterday about EU abortion laws, had a criteria that it was available in the case of rape, but a police report in relation to the rape had to be submitted prior to the abortion.


    Those pesky women, can't even trust 'em to know if they've been raped or not without the right paperwork.


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    #886
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    Stheno wrote: »
    You support abortion in the case of women who have been victims of rape/incest, where there is a risk to the life of the mother, and where women have very tough circumstances.

    Someone who was anti-abortion would not.

    Well if a women's life is at risk she could die if she carries the baby full term, surely the baby's life would be at risk too.

    I am in inner conflict but in my heart i am anti abortion so that would make me pro-life.


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    #887
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    drkpower wrote: »
    And what would the police report say? That the woman had alleged she was raped? Would that be sufficient to warrant an abortion?

    Dunno to be honest, it just said that a police report about the incident was required. I'd imagine that if the law was that strict, they would want a medical report as part of the police report?


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    #888
    sambuka41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sambuka41


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    I am in inner conflict but in my heart i am anti abortion so that would make me pro-life.

    You don't need to pin yourself down as pro life or pro choice, lots of people throughout the thread are torn. Its seems to be different for everyone. :)


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    #889
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    fluorescence wrote: »
    So if she gets pregnant accidentally through consensual sex, she shouldn't be allowed to abort because it's her own damn fault? If she's raped though, it's fine and dandy cause it wasn't her fault. Nice logic there.

    Well she should follow her heart, get advice and support. I am more pro-life than anything else.


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    #890
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    Dunno to be honest, it just said that a police report about the incident was required. I'd imagine that if the law was that strict, they would want a medical report as part of the police report?
    A medical report cannot telll if someone was raped or not though.


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    #891
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well if a women's life is at risk she could die if she carries the baby full term, surely the baby's life would be at risk too.

    I am in inner conflict but in my heart i am anti abortion so that would make me pro-life.

    Well you're probably better off sitting on the fence, rather than claiming to take a particular side of it.

    I've no problem with people coming on and saying "I'm pro-life, abortion is wrong in all circumstances" I obviously have a different opinion, but I do think that if you choose to firmly take one "side" of the debate that you should be able to stick with it.


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    #892
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    drkpower wrote: »
    A medical report cannot telll if someone was raped or not though.

    Agreed, it's a stupid stalling tactic I imagine, designed to make it more difficult for a woman to access the medical procedure she needs.


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    #893
    decembersun77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭decembersun77


    sambuka41 wrote: »
    You don't need to pin yourself down as pro life or pro choice, lots of people throughout the thread are torn. Its seems to be different for everyone. :)

    Well i am pro-life and I don't call people who have abortions 'murderers' I wouldn't judge them.


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    #894
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Well she should follow her heart, get advice and support. I am more pro-life than anything else.

    What does that even mean? "Follow her heart" indeed - you don't sound very pro-life at all. If you think every woman should make the choice that's best for her then you're pro-choice (that doesn't equal pro-abortion btw, it just means you believe she should have the choice).


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    #895
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    drkpower wrote: »
    A medical report cannot telll if someone was raped or not though.

    Very true, was really just using it as an example of how one country deals with it.

    You'd have to wonder as well if there is a time limit for reporting the rape, e.g. if you were raped, and five weeks later were pregnant could you report it then, or would you have to do it when the rape happened?


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    #896
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Stheno wrote: »
    Very true, was really just using it as an example of how one country deals with it.

    You'd have to wonder as well if there is a time limit for reporting the rape, e.g. if you were raped, and five weeks later were pregnant could you report it then, or would you have to do it when the rape happened?
    Why they should just take out 'rape insurance' that ought to speed the abortion gravy train right up.

    http://hypervocal.com/news/2011/rape-pregnancies-just-like-getting-a-flat-tire-says-ks-rep/


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    #897
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    You'd have to wonder as well if there is a time limit for reporting the rape, e.g. if you were raped, and five weeks later were pregnant could you report it then, or would you have to do it when the rape happened?
    Absolutely, no matter what way you swing it, its unworkable.


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    #898
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    drkpower wrote: »
    Absolutely, no matter what way you swing it, its unworkable.

    This might interest me enough for me to go and see what country it was, and if their reported rape figures are any higher than other countries.


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    #899
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    teaandtoast wrote: »
    Am I the only prolife person here? Who esle here is prolife?

    Maple wrote: »
    Banned 3 days for ignoring two earlier onthread warnings and for persistently trying to derail the thread.

    Maple
    decembersun77 wrote: »
    Who is Prolife here?

    Permabanned for using alt account to get around previous ban.

    Maple


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    #900
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    Stheno wrote: »
    Well you're probably better off sitting on the fence, rather than claiming to take a particular side of it.

    I've no problem with people coming on and saying "I'm pro-life, abortion is wrong in all circumstances" I obviously have a different opinion, but I do think that if you choose to firmly take one "side" of the debate that you should be able to stick with it.
    I hear what you're saying, but I'd love to see people "convert" from being anti-choice to pro-choice, being won over with logic and reason, and it being done with kindness and truth of facts.

    Rather than being stuck on one side, we should work to convince the opposite that there is another way!


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    #901
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The only other poster here who I feel anywhere near being on the same hymn sheet here is drkpower and wibbs' first paragraph in a post he made a couple of pages ago.

    If you are going to be pro choice or pro life or on the fence, at least get out of the denial and maybe it's time to look at facing that life is no longer sacred and sometimes people do end another's life for their own health, sanity, finances, dreams, convenience or to finish a master's or bcause they had an affair with a different race man and want their kids to match, or because you are 60 years old and spent a lot of money on IVF and ended up with a girl when you awnted a boy [yes folks that is true- my friend's landlady had an abortion because she wanted a boy.]

    Maybe that is the ugly truth that most people here are dodging.

    Im going to write a book. 'Get in Touch with Your Inner Nazi.'


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