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Your right to an Abortion

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12357…32

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    #122
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    wild_cat wrote: »
    I'm just going to leave this thread here. It'll be legal here sooner than you think. A referendum will have to take place soon and ye'll be surprised how much the favour will swing to the pro choice side.

    I do believe there was a poll over in after hours about this a while ago and an over whelming majority polled in favour of it. I know boards doesn't represent the public at large but the figures we're surprising and even when the big market research agencies are polling for elections they only poll 1000 people in most cases.

    I don't mind if it is legal, it won't affect me one bit. It will still be legal to decide to have nothing to do with a girl who has these kind of views towards children...


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    #123
    Magic Beans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭Magic Beans


    Macha wrote: »
    Why are those opposed to abortion pushing the line that women are kicking their heels up after an abortion?
    I haven't seen anybody say that here???
    Macha wrote: »
    Of course they're upset about it but you guys are the last ones who are worried about the mental health of these women. Trying to use this an argument to further your own opinion is total hypocrisy.
    I think it's a bit more than upset. I think the realisation of doing murder to an unborn child would unhinge anybody's mind. Are you saying that a husband or partner would not be worried about his wife's mental health? What sort of hogwash is that?

    There is a lot of hypocrisy going about in this thread but some posters will need to stand a little further back to see it.


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    #124
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Silverfish wrote: »
    Reminder - this is the Ladies Lounge, a forum for women to discuss topics from their point of view.

    What I am seeing in this thread is women defending their point of view to male posters. This is not what this forum is for.

    If you wish to speculate on how some women are wrong for their beliefs, and how it affects you as men, then please use either Humanities or the Gentlemen's Club, as this forum is for women to discuss topics from their perspective.

    I think you should read this thread again! It did not digress into men telling women how wrong they are.

    Not sure if you are saying men shouldn't post here or not.


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    #125
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    I haven't seen anybody say that here???
    It was an example..
    Magic Beans wrote: »
    I think it's a bit more than upset. I think the realisation of doing murder to an unborn child would unhinge anybody's mind. Are you saying that a husband or partner would not be worried about his wife's mental health? What sort of hogwash is that?
    So you're now saying that all women who have abortions are "unhinged". Why are you painting this as a men vs women debate? Most unhelpful.

    Again, why do you think this is a valid argument for you to use when it is evident that the absence of proper, legal abortion services causes a lot of distress and suffering to women?
    Magic Beans wrote: »
    There is a lot of hypocrisy going about in this thread but some posters will need to stand a little further back to see it.
    This seems to be just a vague accusation aimed at posters who don't agree with you. If you'd like to elaborate, please do so.


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    #126
    gargleblaster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭gargleblaster


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    Good luck with finding a man who will truly be happy with your unilateral power to terminate his children. There are not many of them out there.

    Wow, really? The old 'good luck finding a man' canard? And to think, I was shocked by "lifestyle choice".


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    #127
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I don't mind if it is legal, it won't affect me one bit. It will still be legal to decide to have nothing to do with a girl who has these kind of views towards children...

    And how many women do you think want a relationship with a man who would force her to carry a pregnancy she didn't want to term? I've been medically advised not to have any more children as to do so could permanently disable me - my husband and I have discussed it and if all our efforts at preventing pregnancy failed, WE would get an abortion. I'm awfully glad my husband puts the quality of my life before his own right to more progeny.

    It's easy to throw around the rhetoric in both directions - the question was whether women, nationally, should have a legal right to get an abortion - not for demands for justifications from individual posters as to why or how they would choose to exercise that right.


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    #128
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    As a man I would be devastated if a girl I got pregnant got an abortion. Even though I would be willing to be a single father etc, there would be nothing I could do to stop her from getting my child killed.


    Even though I think men do suffer under irish familial laws, and I sympathise, I don't think any man can or should make a woman go through with a pregnancy under any circumstances. Personally speaking, even the mere idea of pregnancy terrifies me, and it's not because I'd have a child to raise at the end of it. It's because my body wouldn't be mine while I was the host to a foetus. It doesn't matter that you would raise the child alone once it's born - you wouldn't be the one to birth it and therefore you should not be the one to make that choice.


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    #129
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    py2006 wrote: »
    I think you should read this thread again! It did not digress into men telling women how wrong they are.

    Not sure if you are saying men shouldn't post here or not.

    Yes, it certainly did, and I assure you I have read the thread.

    And if it continues the way it is currently going, it will result in some poster's access being removed.

    I understand some men posting here are extremely anti-abortion, but this is not the thread nor the forum for their views.


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    #130
    Magic Beans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭Magic Beans


    I have seen topics killed before but this particular topic has been aborted. Only the viewpoint of a certain subset of women is acceptable.

    Shakes head and leaves.


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    #131
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    I have seen topics killed before but this particular topic has been aborted. Only the viewpoint of a certain subset of women is acceptable.

    Shakes head and leaves.

    It is a forum for women to discuss topics affecting them from their point of view.


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    #132
    gargleblaster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭gargleblaster


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    Abortion is a good choice if your aim is to be hospitalised due to the mental trauma associated with the knowledge that you have terminated the life of your unborn child.

    Details. More Details

    I could post more links like that all day. The facts they contain far outweigh the glib pro-abortion arguments being trotted out here.

    Let's hear from someone who has had an abortion. Tell us about it, be honest, be really honest.

    You're using anti-choice references to back up your claim that you're concerned about the welfare of the pregnant woman and you're asking others to be honest? That's rich!

    Try checking the scientific data. The most reliable research shows women's mental health either unchanged or changed for the better after abortion.


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    #133
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    I have seen topics killed before but this particular topic has been aborted. Only the viewpoint of a certain subset of women is acceptable.

    Shakes head and leaves.
    How incredibly patronizing.

    You failed to convince others of your point of view - that is all.


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    #134
    gargleblaster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭gargleblaster


    Macha wrote: »
    How incredibly patronizing.

    And also unsurprising.


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    #135
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    I have seen topics killed before but this particular topic has been aborted. Only the viewpoint of a certain subset of women is acceptable.

    Shakes head and leaves.

    Are you leaving because no one is bowing down to what you said?

    I left as I knew a ban would be coming my way with what I really felt like posting.


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    #136
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Silverfish wrote: »
    Yes, it certainly did, and I assure you I have read the thread.

    And if it continues the way it is currently going, it will result in some poster's access being removed.

    I understand some men posting here are extremely anti-abortion, but this is not the thread nor the forum for their views.

    Well that would be a shame! I think you would be very wrong here. You obviously disagree with somebody's opinion here (presumably a man). But I have read nothing offensive, childish, insulting or trolling? Maybe I missed it.

    I find this thread fascinating. Abortion isn't a black and white issue.


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    #137
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    Okay folks let's not personalise this please.

    Please keep on topic thanks.


    py2006, moderating decisions aren't up for discussion on-thread. Please read the charter of this forum and abide by it.


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    #138
    gargleblaster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭gargleblaster


    py2006 wrote: »
    Well that would be a shame! I think you would be very wrong here. You obviously disagree with somebody's opinion here (presumably a man). But I have read nothing offensive, childish, insulting or trolling? Maybe I missed it.

    I find this thread fascinating. Abortion isn't a black and white issue.

    Referring to a woman having to spend a not insignificant amount of money to make a special trip to undergo a medical procedure that weighs heavily on most women's minds as a 'lifestyle choice' is offensive as hell.

    And that's where I'd better step off before I earn myself an infraction.


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    #139
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    py2006 wrote: »
    Wow, that must have been devastating!! She prob would have done it even if she discussed it with him!

    The thing is, women often think that the discussion ends with the right to have an abortion being proven.

    In this case, an abortion was procured by the girl, and when it was, the relationship was over, and for what??? Because the girl didn't want to have to tell her mother that she was expecting outside of marriage because she didn't feel that her family would support her if she was not married and pregnant...


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    #140
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    The thing is, women often think that the discussion ends with the right to have an abortion being proven.

    In this case, an abortion was procured by the girl, and when it was, the relationship was over, and for what??? Because the girl didn't want to have to tell her mother that she was expecting outside of marriage because she didn't feel that her family would support her if she was not married and pregnant...

    And my personal anecdote cancels out your personal anecdote - so we're back to the wider discussion...


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    #141
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    true-or-false wrote: »
    Could you explain how you see a foetus as a person?

    Things round here have gotten a bit aggressive, so don't misunderstand me, I mean this as a genuine question. It is the main point of the argument really, as the pro-choice people here aren't trying to condone murder, it's just that we don't see it as murder, whereas clearly you do, and I'd like to understand why.
    I see it as a life, a human life, and as such it is entitled to protections and rights. Terminating, or killing, that being is the extinguishing of a human life.

    The constitutional position as formulated by the Irish people recognizes that the unborn is a human life, and as such has a right to life, among other things.


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    #142
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    And how many women do you think want a relationship with a man who would force her to carry a pregnancy she didn't want to term? I've been medically advised not to have any more children as to do so could permanently disable me - my husband and I have discussed it and if all our efforts at preventing pregnancy failed, WE would get an abortion. I'm awfully glad my husband puts the quality of my life before his own right to more progeny.

    It's easy to throw around the rhetoric in both directions - the question was whether women, nationally, should have a legal right to get an abortion - not for demands for justifications from individual posters as to why or how they would choose to exercise that right.

    This isn't why the vast vast majority of women procure an abortion. I can't think of any man who would urge a woman to proceed with a pregnancy on the basis that you've set out above.

    But that's not the kind of rhetoric I'm reading on here, what I'm reading here is "our bodies our choice"...

    All I'm saying to the pro-abortion folks is, please stop codding us who do not agree with abortion on demand. It isn't about women being left disabled after a child, and it isn't about victims of rape being forced to have the rapists child and it isn't about incest and a girl being forced to carry her brothers or fathers child.

    It's about abortion on demand, so let's start the discussion from there and not some other imagined place.


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    #143
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I see it as a life, a human life, and as such it is entitled to protections and rights. Terminating, or killing, that being is the extinguishing of a human life.

    The constitutional position as formulated by the Irish people recognizes that the unborn is a human life, and as such has a right to life, among other things.

    But doesn't a fertilised egg curry the same potential for human life? And what about those embryos being frozen and destroyed in that IVF you approve of? The constitution accepts the use of contraceptives that prevent a fertilised egg implanting and the morning after pill - that's hardly "right to life" is it?


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    #144
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Well then maybe you will wise up and cop that its not all about the woman and her rights, there is a second person involved too, who has a right to life, and that right needs to be protected.

    I post about how people like those ralliers make grieving potential parents feel and you have the foolhardy audacity to tell me to wise up and cop on to remember the "baby." Are you for real? Seriously?

    You have very little clue about what you are arguing about and you have no comprehension about how to debate or discuss like a mature adult. You are full of nonsense hyperbole, ignorance of other people's experiences and statements. I doubt dignifying your close-mindedness with a thought out response would be worth the waste of my time but I'll make a stab at it.

    (Sort of anyway, it's a repost of a comment I made on a thread on a similar debate.)
    Iguana - DECEMBER 2009 wrote:
    Ok, I've debated adding this to the thread as it's one of those personal things that has coloured my feelings on the issue. It hasn't changed my stance, as I would have thought it might, but instead solidified it.

    I've been pregnant. I planned for that baby and I loved it with everything I've got from as soon as it was conceived. I gave it a silly nickname, I talked to it, I bought it things. I got it a toy womble because I live in Wimbledon and I wanted it to have a memento of where it was conceived and would be born. I saw my baby's whole life, to me it was a boy, to my husband a girl. I pictured it playing with the womble and saving it when it was raggedy and one eyed, sitting on a shelf in my grown baby's teenage bedroom. And when I miscarried it ripped something out of me that's never come back.

    It was 14 months ago but on Sunday when I was putting up my christmas decorations I sobbed the whole way through because it should have been my baby's first christmas. It should have been 7 months old, propped up in a seat watching me hang shiney things. (Or more likely wail the entire time so I got nothing done.) I still think about it everyday, Great Uncle Bulgaria sits on my locker (after a period of being banished to the back of the wardrobe because I couldn't look at it) and has become a memorial rather than a memento. If I have another baby he will be a gift from their big brother or sister. I still talk to my baby, I tell it what it should have been doing if it had lived. If I have a good night's sleep I am sad because I should have been kept up all night with it's crying. And there are still days that I just don't know how to get through without it.

    But I saw what came out of me and it was not a human being, nor had it ever been. It was my baby but it was not A baby. It was a clump of something that sort of resembled a sea monkey. I felt like it was my baby, I saved it, put it in a box and cremated it. My husband and I scattered the ashes in a small ceremony in the marsh where we'd scattered our dog's ashes nearly two years before. I treated it like a baby because it was a baby to me. But it wasn't a person, it never could have been without me. Granted my foetus couldn't be a person even with me either. But I've seen lots of pictures of what my foetus should have looked like at that stage and it looked the same - so I know it wasn't deformed or disintegrated.

    I feel like my baby died and in a way it did, but what really died was my dreams of a baby I created in my head and heart, not a little boy or girl. I would never dream of comparing how awful losing my baby is to what it is like for a parent who's baby dies after it has been born. It's just not comparable. Losing a baby who you've looked at and held in your arms, who's personality you have seen developing. Losing a child who has looked you in the eye and smiled or laughed at the sound of your voice or when you tickle it. It's not even close. It might be the same sport but it ain't the same league.

    And that is because a foetus, certainly a first trimester foetus, is not a person. It is a cluster of cells with the probable potential to be a human being. But it isn't a living human yet.


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    #145
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    HellFireClub wrote: »

    It's about abortion on demand.

    If that's what YOU! think it is... I have no problem with this either.


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    #146
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    It's about abortion on demand, so let's start the discussion from there and not some other imagined place.

    No. It's not about whatever you want decide it's about.

    It's about women who want the right to their own bodies; whether that right be due to failed contraception, a failed relationship, rape, possible medical results or whatever else.


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    #147
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    Abortion is a good choice if your aim is to be hospitalised due to the mental trauma associated with the knowledge that you have terminated the life of your unborn child.

    Details. More Details

    I could post more links like that all day. The facts they contain far outweigh the glib pro-abortion arguments being trotted out here.

    Aye, you could spend all day posting links to nonsense propaganda that has been debunked repeatedly by professionals about "syndromes" that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of. The internet is great like that.


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    #148
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    But doesn't a fertilised egg curry the same potential for human life? And what about those embryos being frozen and destroyed in that IVF you approve of? The constitution accepts the use of contraceptives that prevent a fertilised egg implanting and the morning after pill - that's hardly "right to life" is it?

    The constitutional position is that someone is only "unborn" after implantation hence embryos dont have a right to life.


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    #149
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    No. It's not about whatever you want decide it's about.

    It's about women who want the right to their own bodies; whether that right be due to failed contraception, a failed relationship, rape, possible medical results or whatever else.

    Or whatever else = abortion on demand. Or whatever else could mean for any reason or for no reason at all and if that isn't abortion on demand, then I fail to see what on earth is.

    As a guy, a woman who says I might need an abortion if contraception failed and there was a risk to my health = normal. A woman who says she wants to reserve her right to have an abortion for any reason or for no reason at all, should only be in a relationship with a man who definitely does not have any notions of having a family, that is, where the woman is in a hetrosexual relationship.

    The vast majority of men I know who have healthy positive attitudes towards having children, would run a mile from a woman who wants to reserve her right to have an abortion for any reason or no particular reason at all, i.e. abortion on demand.

    So stick to that mantra if you wish, that is your right, but a lot of men who have normal healthy attitudes to having kids, will run a mile from you, so the issue of a right to an abortion in Ireland might be one that will never actually arise for you.


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    #150
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    The constitutional position is that someone is only "unborn" after implantation hence embryos dont have a right to life.

    And the constitution can change - what the hell does what the current constitution have to do with a discussion in the ladies lounge about whether there SHOULD BE a right to abortion.

    Jaysus wept.


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    #151
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    Although this is a ladies forum - and I apologise for being a man - I find it difficult to see a thread where some poster feel free to ridicule my beliefs without commenting.

    I'm not religious in the traditional orgainsed sense - and I'm not youth defence. I prefer the non-religious argument to standing against abortion.
    I prefer a society that takes a stand and says this is unacceptable rather than allowing a free for all. Although I'm quite liberal in terms of other areas like drug use etc....
    I think abortion is murder and I reserve the right to protest and proclaim those views.
    I don't however call women who have had abortions murderers - I do have some friends who have had them - I recognise a break in my logic but I am ok with that.
    I wouldn't be set in my views at abortion for rape cases - poor baby but nobody is a winner in that situation.

    Each week some union/ socialist , animal rights, students are protesting but nobody rages against them.
    Why anti - abortion protests?

    Most anti abortion people aren't overtly religious - they are protrayed as that cos it makes good copy in the media - who single out the active minority rather than the silent majority. In other word the fringe elements get the
    the headlines - kinda like the gay pride march when people unfamiliar with gays etc....would believe that all gay people dress in outrageous costumes etc.... when it's not like that.

    I would love to know why the hatred toward the anti abortion view?

    I dislike youth defence but they're no worse than any of the militant socialists or the republican in their tactics.

    Why do I feel commited to being anti abortion -
    I think it's morally wrong .. I don't accept that it's a woman's body etc....2 quick reasons that the father should have a say and that the foetus is a living functioning organism. I genuinely believe ireland is a better place without it. That's the short version but we'll leave it for that now.


    gargleblaster wrote: »
    I call them anti-choice myself.
    fair play to ya willie!


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