Your right to an Abortion

krudler

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I see it as a life, a human life, and as such it is entitled to protections and rights. Terminating, or killing, that being is the extinguishing of a human life.

The constitutional position as formulated by the Irish people recognizes that the unborn is a human life, and as such has a right to life, among other things.

Constitutions can be changed though, thats the nice thing about democracies.

I dont get the "i wouldnt be with a pro abortion" woman thing though. I'm not particularly set on having kids, right now I dont.
But in a few years if I met someone and I did and she fell pregnant but wasnt the right time or some complications happened and an abortion was her decision then thats her decision, I'd rather that than have a woman go through an unwanted pregnancy and have an unwanted child. "You got pregnant, just deal with it" isnt exactly an option men should be forcing on women.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And the constitution can change - what the hell does what the current constitution have to do with a discussion in the ladies lounge about whether there SHOULD BE a right to abortion.

Jaysus wept.

You questioned why the right to life didnt cover embryos, I explained.

The current constitutional position was enacted by the Irish people over a twenty odd year period, of course it is relevant.

Morag

What really pisses me off is the fact there are people from other countries medding in our democratic process.

The Government has to legislate for the last high court ruling which states under very limited circumstance a woman can have an abortion in Ireland if continuing the pregnancy is a danger to her life, e.g. in the case of preclampisa or if the is a mortal defect where the baby will not develop and she faces a still birth.

But right wing christian evangelical extremists in other countries the Uk and USA fund raise to run campaigns, posters, websites and rallies ( just like to day) to put pressure on Our Government, there were bus loads of people who came into the country today to be at that rally and bump numbers.

I had someone try to put a pro life sticker on me as today, I told her if she did I would have her arrested for assault. She demanded to know if I was pro abortion, I told her I was pro choice and she then pointed at me and told her daughter who looked about 5 that I was evil.

I pity her daughter and hope she never is faced with the situation that she has to for medical reasons try and travel for an abortion.

Ickle Magoo

HellFireClub wrote: »

Or whatever else = abortion on demand. Or whatever else could mean for any reason or for no reason at all and if that isn't abortion on demand, then I fail to see what on earth is.

So? Without a long list of reasons why women get an abortion, they are all "on demand". Again, what does that have to do with this discussion? Abortions are okay if circumstances where physical quality of life would be diminished but not if any other facet of quality of life or mental health is affected?

HellFireClub wrote: »

So stick to that mantra if you wish, that is your right, but a lot of men who have normal healthy attitudes to having kids, will run a mile from you, so the issue of a right to an abortion in Ireland might be one that will never actually arise for you.

Who are you to dictate who has the healthy attitudes?

And then you get personal and insulting about precious men running away from me cos they is so normal and healthy, seriously now, it's playground stuff.

krudler

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You questioned why the right to life didnt cover embryos, I explained.

The current constitutional position was enacted by the Irish people over a twenty odd year period, of course it is relevant.

at one time it was in the constitution that you couldnt get divorced, peoples opinions change

Wolfe Tone

iguana wrote: »

I post about how people like those ralliers make grieving potential parents feel and you have the foolhardy audacity to tell me to wise up and cop on to remember the "baby." Are you for real? Seriously?

You have very little clue about what you are arguing about and you have no comprehension about how to debate or discuss like a mature adult. You are full of nonsense hyperbole, ignorance of other people's experiences and statements. I doubt dignifying your close-mindedness with a thought out response would be worth the waste of my time but I'll make a stab at it.

(Sort of anyway, it's a repost of a comment I made on a thread on a similar debate.)

Leaving aside your insults, I'm very sorry to hear about what happened.

Its a reminder that no one knows the personal experiences of posters. You don't know mine, and as such you cant say that I have no idea about what I am talking about. Brave of you to post about your experiences like that, I won't be doing so.

iguana

HellFireClub wrote: »

So stick to that mantra if you wish, that is your right, but a lot of men who have normal healthy attitudes to having kids, will run a mile from you, so the issue of a right to an abortion in Ireland might be one that will never actually arise for you.

Actual laugh out loud!:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Ickle Magoo is a married woman, in what appears to be a wonderfully healthy and happy marriage so I really doubt she could care less about finding a man. How do you think that threatening a happily married woman, who has described what is clearly a sexually active marriage, with a lonely future of celibate, spinsterhood works?

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Macha

King of Kings wrote: »

I would love to know why the hatred toward the anti abortion view?

Because they want to take away my right to choose. My body, my choice. It's that simple.

Silverfish

HellFireClub wrote: »

So stick to that mantra if you wish, that is your right, but a lot of men who have normal healthy attitudes to having kids, will run a mile from you, so the issue of a right to an abortion in Ireland might be one that will never actually arise for you.

Banned for 7 days.

I do not post moderator warnings in threads for no reason.

I have asked posters not to personalise the debate, any further personal insults / digs / snide comments in this thread will be met with a ban

krudler

I'm starting a business selling cats to pro choice/abortion/murder whatever you want to call viewing women, I'll make a fortune once their miserable, man-less lives are in full swing after their views are heard and their lives become a barren wasteland where no man will want her.

good grief.

There are plenty of men who agree with a womans right to choose how and what her body is used for, I'd be one of those but its not relevant, its one of those things where women do come first because we're not the ones going through a physically and mentally changing process like pregnancy is.

Hermione*

HellFireClub wrote: »

Say the views that are being presented on here, which are pretty much all pro-abortion.

Being pro-choice does not automatically mean being pro-abortion.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yes, we all have choice - one of those choices is abortion. Well spotted.

I lol'd!

iguana wrote: »

The problem is that we keep on having referendums but for the most part the referendums are actually about tightening up the current anti-abortion legislation, not liberalising it. Referendums which keep on losing. The few times we have had referendums to liberalise the laws, to ensure the right to travel and full medical information, we have voted in favour. However the government didn't like it so just ignored the constitutional change and never passed laws to enact the rights the people have chosen. All because Bertie made a promise to his dying mammy.

I have always argued this point! There has never been a serious pro-choice referendum on abortion. As far as I can tell, they have all been focused on making something which is already illegal more illegal. It baffles me.

quickbeam

King of Kings wrote: »

Although this is a ladies forum - and I apologise for being a man - I find it difficult to see a thread where some poster feel free to ridicule my beliefs without commenting.

I'm not religious in the traditional orgainsed sense - and I'm not youth defence. I prefer the non-religious argument to standing against abortion.
I prefer a society that takes a stand and says this is unacceptable rather than allowing a free for all. Although I'm quite liberal in terms of other areas like drug use etc....
I think abortion is murder and I reserve the right to protest and proclaim those views.
I don't however call women who have had abortions murderers - I do have some friends who have had them - I recognise a break in my logic but I am ok with that.
I wouldn't be set in my views at abortion for rape cases - poor baby but nobody is a winner in that situation.

Each week some union/ socialist , animal rights, students are protesting but nobody rages against them.
Why anti - abortion protests?

Most anti abortion people aren't overtly religious - they are protrayed as that cos it makes good copy in the media - who single out the active minority rather than the silent majority. In other word the fringe elements get the
the headlines - kinda like the gay pride march when people unfamiliar with gays etc....would believe that all gay people dress in outrageous costumes etc.... when it's not like that.

I would love to know why the hatred toward the anti abortion view?

I dislike youth defence but they're no worse than any of the militant socialists or the republican in their tactics.

Why do I feel commited to being anti abortion -
I think it's morally wrong .. I don't accept that it's a woman's body etc....2 quick reasons that the father should have a say and that the foetus is a living functioning organism. I genuinely believe ireland is a better place without it. That's the short version but we'll leave it for that now.

I was just drafting a post, but you pretty much said everything I was going to say, especially the bits in bold. The only difference is that I am female. Not all females are pro-choice and the counter-demo does not represent all Irish women. I don't usually contribute to threads about abortion as they're so emotive and nobody is ever convinced of the opposing view but I do think it's important to not to stereotype anti-abortionists as right-wing, male, religions nuts.

Morag

Magic Beans wrote: »

I think it's a bit more than upset. I think the realisation of doing murder to an unborn child would unhinge anybody's mind. Are you saying that a husband or partner would not be worried about his wife's mental health? What sort of hogwash is that?

This is the new BullShít.

It used to be said having an abortion would make a woman sterile and ruin her womb and she would not be able to have kids afterwards. This was proven to be a pack of lies.

It used to be said that having an abortion increased the chances of a woman getting breast cancer. This was also proven to be a pack of lies.

The new 'risk' for women which is being bandied about is the risk to a woman's mental health and we are now seeing the women hurt by abortion campaign being rolled out with posters in Dublin city centre.

Again more Bullshít.

What hurts women is the taboo and hidden nature of abortion among Irish women. Aprox, 6,000 a year for the last 20 years have had abortions.
That's means the chances are someone you know or are related to has had an abortion or at least everyday a woman you pass on the street.

The condemnation which has stopped women from getting help and support from friends and family hurts women, having to hide the fact they had an abortion so they don't get called Evil hurts women.

In other countries women do not suffer the same sort of post abortion emotional issues as abortion is legal and women's choices are respected and women are not subject to people calling them baby murders, in person , on the street or in online discussion.

iguana

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Leaving aside your insults, I'm very sorry to hear about what happened.

Its a reminder that no one knows the personal experiences of posters. You don't know mine, and as such you cant say that I have no idea about what I am talking about. Brave of you to post about your experiences like that, I won't be doing so.

I said you have no idea of what you are talking about when you tell someone who has twice posted concerns about the grief experienced by couples who have lost a wanted pregnancy to wise up as they aren't talking about tattoos. I could not have been more clear in that I was discussing pregnancy and the potential baby which may result from the pregnancy. So continually doing the internet equivalent of howling about how I wasn't thinking about the "baby" was terrible debating, which insulted nobody but yourself.

As I said, I understand why "pro-life" people feel how they do. That the zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus are all all equal to a born human and that to end that life is murder. Just the same way that I understand how other people feel that way about cows, pigs and chickens. But I don't agree with them and my understanding for their philosophical position does not mean that their insistence of imposing their beliefs on other people's bodies is ok.

G86

An unwanted pregnancy is hard enough to deal with, without having the added financial worry of having to get over to the UK as soon as possible.

What about the contraception pill, or the MAP which is available over the counter here now, what do the pro-lifers think of that? Does that count as a 'murder'? If not, then what about the abortion pill? The MAP can be taken for up to 72 hours, so if you're ok with that, and someone takes the abortion pill after 100 hours where do they stand then? Where do you draw the line?

I favour early terminations as I think later stage abortions are much more traumatic on the mother, as the foetus is more developed, but in all cases I think first of the mother and her choice.

I understand that pro-lifers have an opinion, and I agree that they're entitled to that opinion, but what I'm asking is that EVERYONE'S opinion be listened to and that they don't force theirs down my throat.

Wibbs

Hermione* wrote: »

Being pro-choice does not automatically mean being pro-abortion.

+1 I'm broadly against abortion for a few reasons, but I'm also pro-choice for a few more.

Morag

If they really wanted to stop abortions why are they not pro proper sex and sexual health education?

Why are they not pushing for free contraception for everyone under the age of 25?

ztoical

King of Kings wrote: »

I think it's morally wrong .. I don't accept that it's a woman's body etc....2 quick reasons that the father should have a say and that the foetus is a living functioning organism.

I'm sorry but basic biology has decided that I have control of what goes on in my body. By this logic the state or the father has the right to stop me doing all sorts of things while pregnant. Should we now start locking up women who smoke, drink or take drugs while pregnant? How about those who don't eat correctly during pregnancy or who take risks like, o I don't know, going outside. I mean she's free to put her own life at risk but what choice has the 'baby'? Someone must look after it. And what about after birth surely by this logic a woman can be forced to breast feed by the state or father even if they don't wish to after all only her body can produce the food that the baby should be living on. Yes lets treat women's bodies like property and breed and milk them for the good of the country.

King of Kings wrote: »

I genuinely believe ireland is a better place without it.

I really hate this view point as Ireland is not without abortion. Wither you are yes or no, pro choice or pro life or what ever bloody term people feel comfortable using the facts are this Irish women are having abortions. Between those who travel to the UK or further to those who are having dangerous illegal ones it goes on and I for one don't think it makes Ireland a better place to stick our head in the sand and pretend we are some great moral high ground compared to the rest of world because we don't legally allow abortions to happen within our borders. 10 years ago when I was a student I was in a house share with a girl who found out she was pregnant and was told by some other girls if she drank a certain combination of household chemicals she would have a miscarriage so of course that's just what she did and yes she had a miscarriage and a very long stay in hospital after she did untold damage to her organs not to mention mental well being. This is not an isolated case. Many young girls will opt to try something drastic like this as they are afraid of trying to go to the UK or some person has twisted it in their head....abortion murder - miscarriage 'act of god'.

lace

Sharrow wrote: »

If they really wanted to stop abortions why are they not pro proper sex and sexual health education?

Why are they not pushing for free contraception for everyone under the age of 25?

This is what I don't understand. Most pro-choice organisations also campaign for better sex ed etc. Most pro-life ones concentrate on the right/wrong, baby/foetus arguments and ignore the lack of education etc. Wouldn't it be better for pro-life campaigners to try to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies seeing as (at the moment) abortion isn't legal in this country anyway?

Wibbs

G86 wrote: »

What about the contraception pill, or the MAP which is available over the counter here now, what do the pro-lifers think of that? Does that count as a 'murder'?

+1 again. I know a couple of pro lifer women who are on the pill and this doesn't seem to register with them. The pill can work by preventing implantation, not conception, so if the moment of conception is life to them, then likely they're terminating foetuses every so often. It's a grey area that doesn't bear much thought or debate for them, or their partners who may be equally pro life.

I favour early terminations as I think later stage abortions are much more traumatic on the mother, as the foetus is more developed, but in all cases I think first of the mother and her choice.

This is where we'd differ or maybe draw the lines differently. I do think of the potential mother but also of the potential baby. Extreme late stage where the foetus might survive outside of the womb for me is a line too far. Of course that is the extreme and oft jumped upon by the pro lifers, but it's not the norm.

I understand that pro-lifers have an opinion, and I agree that they're entitled to that opinion, but what I'm asking is that EVERYONE'S opinion be listened to and that they don't force theirs down my throat.

Wibbs

lace wrote: »

This is what I don't understand. Most pro-choice organisations also campaign for better sex ed etc. Most pro-life ones concentrate on the right/wrong, baby/foetus arguments and ignore the lack of education etc. Wouldn't it be better for pro-life campaigners to try to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies seeing as (at the moment) abortion isn't legal in this country anyway?

Oh well yea L, that would be logical indeed if they were truly pro life. But because often(not always) Gaaawd is coming along for the ride you're on a hiding to nothing. The anti sexuality and contraception Gaaawd. The keep your legs together method of population and sexual control.

G86

G86 wrote: »

I understand that pro-lifers have an opinion, and I agree that they're entitled to that opinion, but what I'm asking is that EVERYONE'S opinion be listened to and that they don't force theirs down my throat.

Good point.

If abortion was legal, then pro-life people could choose not to get abortions, and pro-choice people could choose to make choices about whether or not to get abortions. In other words, legalizing abortion would give both parties the freedom to hold their own opinions and to be able to act on those opinions. With abortion illegal, both pro-life and pro-choice are forced to comply to a pro-life view.

I'd also like to address "pro-abortion". No one (in the general public) is pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice and I find it offensive that some pro-life people paint pro-choice people as being encouraging of abortion. An abortion is an unfortunate thing to have to go through with, and in the vast majority of cases is taken after very serious consideration. Moreover, as a pro-choice person, if I got pregnant accidentally, I'd keep the baby. Just because I'm pro-choice doesn't mean I want an abortion. It just means that I think that following through on a pregnancy should be the choice of the mother, and quite frankly I find it terrifying that some women don't manage to get an abortion when they want one, and are forced to give birth.

Morag

If it was legal here they would be picketing the clincs/hosptials and taking pictures of women going into them. They were taking pics and video today of people at the pro choice rally, it's one of the intimidation tactics used.

krudler

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh well yea L, that would be logical indeed if they were truly pro life. But because often(not always) Gaaawd is coming along for the ride you're on a hiding to nothing. The anti sexuality and contraception Gaaawd. The keep your legs together method of population and sexual control.

the same Gawd who spends most of the Old Testament wiping people, including children, out and asks people sacrifice their infants to test their love of him? facepsalm.

nicola09

I hope the Rally for Choice went well OP, sorry I couldn't attend!:)
I hope the media also gives due attention to the people who attended, I know in the past Youth Defence/COIR have tried to downplay the extent to which people turned up to counter their own rally. I think a noticeable difference between the demographics of both sides at the rally is that the Choice side normally contains more women of childbearing age who were more than likely too young to vote in the last referendum on the issue. Conversely, the anti-choice side has an awful lot of elderly people, mothers with children in buggies and interest groups drafted in often from abroad to bolster the "pro-lifes" numbers. I would be very interested to see the result of a referendum conducted right now; we have such a young population many of whom have never given an opinion on the issue.

Two years ago I saw one woman point at her child and shout "You can't murder her!!" Eh sorry but constitutional issues aside (and the fact that abortion never purports to "murder" other peoples children), in the criminal law having an illegal abortion on Irish soil wouldn't even amount to murder as a substantive offence; it is the specific offence of procuring an unlawful misscarriage under 19th century legislation. Travelling to the UK for an abortion isn't "murder" under their legislation either. Bringing kids on these protests is actually perverse. So is giving anti-choice literature to pre-pubescent girls, as has happened to me on O'Connell Street as a child! The MINIMUM the legislature needs to do is legislate for the X case and the ABC ECHR decision, but I personally would welcome a referendum to bring safe and legal abortion to Ireland in line with UK policy.

Wolfe Tone

true-or-false wrote: »

Good point.

If abortion was legal, then pro-life people could choose not to get abortions, and pro-choice people could choose to make choices about whether or not to get abortions. In other words, legalizing abortion would give both parties the freedom to hold their own opinions and to be able to act on those opinions. With abortion illegal, both pro-life and pro-choice are forced to comply to a pro-life view.

I'd also like to address "pro-abortion". No one (in the general public) is pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice and I find it offensive that some pro-life people paint pro-choice people as being encouraging of abortion. An abortion is an unfortunate thing to have to go through with, and in the vast majority of cases is taken after very serious consideration. Moreover, as a pro-choice person, if I got pregnant accidentally, I'd keep the baby. Just because I'm pro-choice doesn't mean I want an abortion. It just means that I think that following through on a pregnancy should be the choice of the mother, and quite frankly I find it terrifying that some women don't manage to get an abortion when they want one, and are forced to give birth.

Its not as simple as "if you don't want one don't get one" as it involves another human life which has rights. That human life has no voice, others must speak up for it. Whether thats the state, as it is in Ireland, or pro life groups.

The unborn are one of the most vulnerable groups in society, hence why they, and their rights, are protected by law.

I don't buy the "don't force your views on others" spin when it comes to abortion. Religion sure, Gay and trans issues deffo, drug use, maybe.

Wolfe Tone

nicola09 wrote: »

I hope the Rally for Choice went well OP, sorry I couldn't attend!:)
I hope the media also gives due attention to the people who attended, I know in the past Youth Defence/COIR have tried to downplay the extent to which people turned up to counter their own rally. I think a noticeable difference between the demographics of both sides at the rally is that the Choice side normally contains more women of childbearing age who were more than likely too young to vote in the last referendum on the issue. Conversely, the anti-choice side has an awful lot of elderly people, mothers with children in buggies and interest groups drafted in often from abroad to bolster the "pro-lifes" numbers. I would be very interested to see the result of a referendum conducted right now; we have such a young population many of whom have never given an opinion on the issue.

Two years ago I saw one woman point at her child and shout "You can't murder her!!" Eh sorry but constitutional issues aside (and the fact that abortion never purports to "murder" other peoples children), in the criminal law having an illegal abortion on Irish soil wouldn't even amount to murder as a substantive offence; it is the specific offence of procuring an unlawful misscarriage under 19th century legislation. Travelling to the UK for an abortion isn't "murder" under their legislation either. Bringing kids on these protests is actually perverse. So is giving anti-choice literature to pre-pubescent girls, as has happened to me on O'Connell Street as a child! The MINIMUM the legislature needs to do is legislate for the X case and the ABC ECHR decision, but I personally would welcome a referendum to bring safe and legal abortion to Ireland in line with UK policy.

Im a young fella, and I know lots of people my age who would share my opinion.

Its not strictly the old, or religious, who are against abortion. In fact the religious element damages the argument because people are so anti RCC these days that they view the ban on abortion a religious thing, when it is anything but.

drkpower

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I asked you tbf, why do you allow it??

Because the mother is already an independent life in being; the foetus is not. But as you agree with me on the mother's roghts trumping the foetus, there is little point in pursuing an avenue where we already agree.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Does the foetus suddenly get a right to life at 10 weeks? Why not before? Should that right not be protected before ten weeks? Why not?

I have already told you that the 10 week limit is smething that I am open to discussion on. My own view is that 8-10 weeks is about right because it gives the mother sufficient time (in most cases) to exercise her rights. And I have already given my rationale for the use of a limit.

Ickle Magoo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its not as simple as "if you don't want one don't get one" as it involves another human life which has rights. That human life has no voice, others must speak up for it. Whether thats the state, as it is in Ireland, or pro life groups.

The unborn are one of the most vulnerable groups in society, hence why they, and their rights, are protected by law.

I don't buy the "don't force your views on others" spin when it comes to abortion. Religion sure, Gay and trans issues deffo, drug use, maybe.

Which is why making it perfectly legal to have contraceptives & MAPs that rely on creating an atmosphere likely to kill and prevent the implantation of perfectly viable zygotes is such a contradiction - as is finding it perfectly acceptable to harvest and destroy embryos in IVF but claiming doing the same in utero is murder and should be illegal.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Which is why making it perfectly legal to have contraceptives & MAPs that rely on creating an atmosphere likely to kill and prevent the implantation of perfectly viable zygotes is such a contradiction - as is finding it perfectly acceptable to harvest and destroy embryos in IVF but claiming doing the same in utero is murder and should be illegal.

Yeah I would largely agree that it is a contradiction, as I said earlier I have some issues with my own position.

IVF is a bit different in that the aim of that is to create life(maybe it already exists from fertilization?) not destroy it.

Does a embtyo have a right to life? The courts say no, I dont know and havent decided.