Your right to an Abortion

Kimia

It's such a tough one. I am 'pro-choice' in the sense that I completely agree that women should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies. 100%.

However, I am extremely uncomfortable with late term abortions, with abortions being used as contraception etc.

Where's the happy medium? Perhaps in the future there will be man-made incubators and we will have evolved so that no living human can actually host their offspring in their own bodies anymore. Therefore it's a choice to have children rather than a choice not to have them and there will be no unwanted babies.

metrovelvet

Kimia wrote: »

It's such a tough one. I am 'pro-choice' in the sense that I completely agree that women should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies. 100%.

However, I am extremely uncomfortable with late term abortions, with abortions being used as contraception etc.

Where's the happy medium? Perhaps in the future there will be man-made incubators and we will have evolved so that no living human can actually host their offspring in their own bodies anymore. Therefore it's a choice to have children rather than a choice not to have them and there will be no unwanted babies.

Your reasoning is that the baby is dependant on the mother's body and while remains dependant on the mother's body, the mother has the right to end the life. The baby is in the mother's body for thirty eight weeks. So... the logic concludes then... that during that time it is her choice right?

There will always be unplanned children. That is just part of nature's sinsiter plot. Some will be wanted and some will be rejected. Nature doesnt care as long as life continues.

There will also be planned children who are unwanted. People change their minds. This happens more than is morally digestible.

I would hate to think of human incubators. Then all the power of life will be handed over to insitutions and governments.

First thing you learn when you are pregnant and register in a maternity hospital, is your body no longer is yours. It belongs to the hospital. They take over completely. It would go double once you have incubators. Then the parents will have ZERO input.

Kimia

You ask difficult questions Metro and I respect that. I don't know the answers. It's just impossible to know the right answers to these because everyone has a different perspective on what is comfortable for them.

I'm not comfortable with a woman having an abortion when she's 24 weeks for example but I'm also against telling her what to do with her body. I don't know what to say beyond that. I know what my choice would be and that's the only decision I'm comfortable making.

teaandtoast

Is there much help to help women here in crisis pregnancies I know there are phone lines and some organisations, most are pro-life thankGod. Abortion is wrong but those people that are suppose to be preventing women going to england for abortion don't do much to prevent them. What are they actually doing? I just see them standing outside those reproduction choice places and looking at the poor women going in and out of them. If they want to prevent them and see how they could have their baby they would acutally reach out to the women to let them know someone is there for them. What good is a rally going to do? Really.

Why don't they go in to the communities and places where they will find affected by poverty, deprivation and addictions and the welfare offices and the colleges. THey obviously don't live in the real world, many of them have it cushy with family and support around them how would they know what it's like to be alone with nothing and have no one in a situation like that. If they did they would do those things.

I know a few women who had abortions and they are still traumatised and one of the women took it very badly that after, she wanted to have a baby again and tried sleeping with different men, it really took over her she took her own life a few months later. She was not a young teenager she was in her late 20s. Its very sad and makes me very very angry the way how there is not much help for women. I didn't hear of any support group for women here either affected by this

philologos

krudler wrote: »

There are plenty of men who agree with a womans right to choose how and what her body is used for, I'd be one of those but its not relevant, its one of those things where women do come first because we're not the ones going through a physically and mentally changing process like pregnancy is.

Kimia wrote:

Men also have no idea what it's like to face your body being taken over by something else, something that you have no control over. The fear of the birth, the hormones, the fact that you'll now be responsible for that human forever and ever, it's scary, terrifying.

This presumes that there are no women who are pro-life. The idea that women as a whole should be considered pro-choice seems absurd to me.

It's a difficult call for me but ultimately I'm pro-life in so far as I support the most fundamental human right of all, that is the right to life.

Wolfe Tone

Its a shame that no form of contraception is 100% effective. People need to be educated more, but I'm surprised at the number of lads my age who think a condom is 100% effective.

Morag

There is post abortion counselling and medical check ups available to women through the IFPA, well woman's centre and various pro life groups. I know several women who have had abortions, I was someone who had information and phone numbers which I passed on to women who needed them even at a time it was illegal to do so.

I only know 1 woman who regretted it to the extent that she suffered depression and what was due to her partner pressurising her into having the abortion and then before the year was out leaving her for someone he was cheating with and had gotten pregnant.

I think just about every woman who has an abortion has regret, but mostly it is that they are in the siltation where they are experiencing a crises pregnancy and that circumstances are not what they would want them to be.

athtrasna

I believe every person on this planet is genuinely pro-life, not fake pro-life like YD or these campaigners. I say that because pro-choice does not mean anti-life, which is what YD would have you believe. But that doesn't mean women should have to give birth to rapists' babies or go through 40 weeks of bearing a child to give birth to one so badly deformed that they "live" for a matter of hours.

I am pro-choice, which does not mean pro-abortion, nor does it mean I would ever have one. It doesn't mean I would rule it out either. I want to have the choice to make the right decision in the circumstances. An educated, informed choice in my own country.

In this day and age I think it's shameful that Ireland continues to export this problem. How much longer can we ignore the women forced to travel for abortions...for a whole load of reasons.

It also makes my blood boil that the majority of attendees at any of these "pro-life" rallies are of non child bearing potential ie men and pensioners. They do not understand what it's like to be a woman in the 21st century, ditto the church.

It should be up to every woman to make her own decisions - and as a bumper sticker I saw in the US said..."against abortion? don't have one".

philologos

Whether or not it is a right for someone to have the choice to take away a child's life is questionable as far as I see it. People say it's about the mother's body, but this is only true to a limited degree in that it also pertains to the child's body and their life.

Malari

This "against abortion - don't have one" line is missing the point entirely. If someone believes you are taking a life by having an abortion then it's tantamount to saying "against murder - don't kill anyone" to them. They think no-one should have the right to do this.

teaandtoast

Does anyone actually know what happens in an abortion?
Is there anyone here that has actually been affected by abortion?

teaandtoast

Another thing what if your mother decided to not to being you in to the world, or your sister or brothers. How different would your life be without them?

Do you have any kids in your family like neices and nephews, imagine if your cousin decided not bring them in to the world so they would never exist now.

Ellis Dee

In a perfect world there would be no abortions, but we don't live in a perfect world.

Personally, I'm opposed to abortion (not hard, because I'm male and will never need one), largely because I dislike all kinds of waste and really disapprove of people not taking proper precautions to avoid becoming pregnant unless they really want to. Abortion should not be a substitute for birth control.:cool:

However, there are all kinds of pregnancies that, for one reason or another, are problematic. Either screening has revealed major medical problems, the socioeconomic implications of an accidental pregnancy seem insurmountable or the woman is purely and simply not ready or willing to become a mother (yet).

That's why I support women's right to choose, and I also never cease to be amazed at all the talk and heated passion there is about abortion in Ireland. I've lived in central and northern European countries for decades and abortion is available more or less on demand (in addition to which it is rarely even discussed outside the nutbar fringe), but the rates are probably lower than the real rate in Ireland.:)

Doesn't anyone find it odd that the same people who are so opposed to abortion in Ireland are likewise in all probability against sex education, contraception, and so on?

They also seem to be largely right-wingers, so I suppose it's really all about control.:rolleyes:

Morag

teaandtoast wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what happens in an abortion?
Is there anyone here that has actually been affected by abortion?

Oh look it's the other pro life myths.

That women who have abortions and people who are pro choice don't know what happens during medical and surgical abortions.

That only people who have not had an abortion or don't know any one who has had an abortion are pro choice.

lace

Never been personally affected but I know what's involved. I've been shown the pro-life shock-horror videos of fetuses being dismembered and even worse late-term abortions. I think most people (on both sides of the debate) understand what's involved. Just because someone thinks it should be legal, doesn't mean they're ignorant to the reality of the procedure.

Morag

teaandtoast wrote: »

Another thing what if your mother decided to not to being you in to the world, or your sister or brothers. How different would your life be without them?

Do you have any kids in your family like neices and nephews, imagine if your cousin decided not bring them in to the world so they would never exist now.

And?

Yes life would be different but you'd not know any different as there is no way to compare.

Wolfe Tone

Ellis Dee wrote: »

In a perfect world there would be no abortions, but we don't live in a perfect world.

Personally, I'm opposed to abortion (not hard, because I'm male and will never need one), largely because I dislike all kinds of waste and really disapprove of people not taking proper precautions to avoid becoming pregnant unless they really want to. Abortion should not be a substitute for birth control.:cool:

However, there are all kinds of pregnancies that, for one reason or another, are problematic. Either screening has revealed major medical problems, the socioeconomic implications of an accidental pregnancy seem insurmountable or the woman is purely and simply not ready or willing to become a mother (yet).

That's why I support women's right to choose, and I also never cease to be amazed at all the talk and heated passion there is about abortion in Ireland. I've lived in central and northern European countries for decades and abortion is available more or less on demand (in addition to which it is rarely even discussed outside the nutbar fringe), but the rates are probably lower than the real rate in Ireland.:)

Doesn't anyone find it odd that the same people who are so opposed to abortion in Ireland are likewise in all probability against sex education, contraception, and so on?

They also seem to be largely right-wingers, so I suppose it's really all about control.:rolleyes:

lol, thats simply wrong

coffee_cake

teaandtoast wrote: »

Another thing what if your mother decided to not to being you in to the world, or your sister or brothers. How different would your life be without them?

Do you have any kids in your family like neices and nephews, imagine if your cousin decided not bring them in to the world so they would never exist now.

Then you'd be having this debate with someone else

Seriously, can you not do any better than these stupid ridiculous old excuses for arguments

Wolfe Tone

Listening to Luke Kellys version of "Scorn not his simplicity" here, and it got me thinking, do people here think that if its clear a child will be handicapped, downs syndrome or whatever, it should be aborted?

teaandtoast

Abortion Methods Described

Suction Abortion: Used during the first three months of pregnancy - A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C): Used at the end of the third month of pregnancy (approximately 12 weeks) - The cervix is dialated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife in a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows.
Dilation and Extraction (D&E): Used after 13 weeks - The cervix is dialated and the unborn child is dismembered with plier-like forceps. Force is needed to pull the baby apart. The instrument is used to seize a leg or other part of the body and then, with a twisting motion, tear it from the baby's body. The baby's spine is snapped and the skull crushed. After the baby parts are removed, they are reassembled outside the womb to be sure all are removed. Frequently baby parts are left inside the mother's womb. This can cause serious complications and sometimes death.


Partial-Birth Abortion: Partial-Birth Abortions are used from the 4th month through the end of the 9th month of pregnancy. These late-term abortions are regularly used to kill healthy babies that pose no danger or threat to their mother.
For this abortion, the abortionist uses ultrasound to locate the unborn baby's legs. Forceps are then used to pull the baby's legs through the birth canal, delivering the baby feet first, except for the head. Scissors are then used to puncture the base of the back of the head. A suction device is then inserted to suction out the baby's brain so the skull will easily collapse. The dead baby is then removed.



Thats what happens in abortion..

Wolfe Tone

Man I didnt want to read that, its just distressing

metrovelvet

Well it's important to know that so people have an informed choice. You should know what you are choosing.

teaandtoast

bluewolf wrote: »

Then you'd be having this debate with someone else

Seriously, can you not do any better than these stupid ridiculous old excuses for arguments

Well i am making a general point. If your mother, or cousin or whoever went ahead and had an abortion then your sister, cousin, friend etc wouldn't exist.

teaandtoast

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Man I didnt want to read that, its just distressing

They are the facts and ignorance is bliss to many people

beeftotheheels

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Listening to Luke Kellys version of "Scorn not his simplicity" here, and it got me thinking, do people here think that if its clear a child will be handicapped, downs syndrome or whatever, it should be aborted?

I think this is a grey area. My personal opinion would be that a child with downs syndrome can be a blessing. But, if the parents were elderly/ already had handicapped children and had genuine concerns that they would be able to raise and support their handicapped/ another handicapped child then that should be up to them.

Imagine forcing an elderly couple to bring a handicapped child into the world knowing that they are, in all likelihood going to have to abandon that child to state services? Having disabled relatives I've seen the distress of not being able to look after your handicapped child as an elderly parent, I've seen the distress caused by younger parents having to accept they could not look after their severely (not DS) handicapped child. I wouldn't be concerned about arguments that looking after a handicapped child can be difficult, looking after any child can be difficult, so what.

I would be concerned by arguments about not being able to look after a handicapped child who you love can be completely heart breaking, especially when you see that child having no quality of life but are powerless to do anything about it.

So it remains grey for me and I err towards personal choice.

But, I type this as a woman who, at both ends of the spectrum of life, believes life exists only when it has a chance of being self supporting so I have no problem with first trimester terminations, just as I have no problem with unplugging a life support machine. If babies at 25 weeks have survived then the line has to be drawn well back from that to allow for the advancement of medical science so first trimester strikes me as the balance.

Morag

teaandtoast wrote: »

They are the facts and ignorance is bliss to many people

So teaandtoast are you now or have you ever been a member of YouthDefense/Spuc/mother&child/natural law party?


And how do you feel about the state sanctioned abortions which are carried out for ectopic pregnancies?

seenitall

teaandtoast wrote: »

ignorance is bliss to many people

I wouldn't be so sure about that, but thank you for the info you posted anyway. I have read it and am still firmly pro-choice, though. On the basis of which I can't see many women who are determined to end their pregnancies reconsidering in the light of "what happens in an abortion". I would imagine that for a woman who wants to be rid of a pregnancy, what happens first and foremost, is she gets rid of a developing organism she doesn't want to play host to. As they say, you can't put a price on freedom.

Or maybe I am completely wrong, a total exception, and an unfeeling monster to boot?

Silverfish

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Listening to Luke Kellys version of "Scorn not his simplicity" here, and it got me thinking, do people here think that if its clear a child will be handicapped, downs syndrome or whatever, it should be aborted?

I don't think anyone in this thread proposed that all foetuses less than 'perfect' must be aborted.

Some people have proposed that there should be a choice there if the parent(s) feel they cannot carry the foetus to term, for whatever reason.

Malari

teaandtoast wrote: »

Well i am making a general point. If your mother, or cousin or whoever went ahead and had an abortion then your sister, cousin, friend etc wouldn't exist.

For all I know they did! And it has affected my life not at all. As another poster said, you have nothing to compare it to so you don't know any different. It's like the Beethoven murder fallacy. Imagine if every time your mother/sister/cousin had sex they got pregnant - how many more friends/nephews/nieces/siblings would you have then!?

astrofool

teaandtoast wrote: »

Abortion Methods Described

Suction Abortion: Used during the first three months of pregnancy - A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C): Used at the end of the third month of pregnancy (approximately 12 weeks) - The cervix is dialated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife in a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows.
Dilation and Extraction (D&E): Used after 13 weeks - The cervix is dialated and the unborn child is dismembered with plier-like forceps. Force is needed to pull the baby apart. The instrument is used to seize a leg or other part of the body and then, with a twisting motion, tear it from the baby's body. The baby's spine is snapped and the skull crushed. After the baby parts are removed, they are reassembled outside the womb to be sure all are removed. Frequently baby parts are left inside the mother's womb. This can cause serious complications and sometimes death.


Partial-Birth Abortion: Partial-Birth Abortions are used from the 4th month through the end of the 9th month of pregnancy. These late-term abortions are regularly used to kill healthy babies that pose no danger or threat to their mother.
For this abortion, the abortionist uses ultrasound to locate the unborn baby's legs. Forceps are then used to pull the baby's legs through the birth canal, delivering the baby feet first, except for the head. Scissors are then used to puncture the base of the back of the head. A suction device is then inserted to suction out the baby's brain so the skull will easily collapse. The dead baby is then removed.



Thats what happens in abortion..

If you want to be shocking, at least post the full list of methods (or link to a site that lists them more comprehensively).