State spending €3million on communion rituals

meoklmrk91

In fairness I know of mother who is on social welfare, has never worked a day in her life and there is going to be a limo to take her kid to and from the church. How many times have you seen kids being picked up by limos and horse drawn cartridges on the day of their communion. Its also these little girls who have full spray tans, false eyelashes, hair extensions, acrylic nails, and professionally done make up. It's disgusting in my opinion and to give these people any more money to dress their kids up like little barbie dolls and kens is going too far.

Lucy8080

maybe i have to put a bit of spirit into this converstaion against the money counters.

i know u all have a neighbour /friend u are seething at internally/judging..and its killing ya...its eating u up inside

but the child hasnt a clue where the money comes from.and does not have those stresses u are all suffering from. and if it recalls this when an adult...will make this world a little easier for all who come in contact with him/her.

Lucy8080

ninja...i get a kick out of you.

bertie era...lol.

this is for kids. kids living in a post celtic tiger ireland.

we ve had our communions / confos...changed our beliefs...grown up...had our xmasses...

what of it. whats the game now? deny those innocent days to todays kids because we have read some books?

go after the real thiefs. 3 mill to make sure all kids have days we had ....its nothing.

they will grow up and form their own opinions ...its an unavoidable world with the technology we have....

lets let them keep their innocence ...it will not last as long as ours did.

the best days of their little lives....let em have it. and lets not count the pennies for kids ..when the speculaters ripped billions for themselves.

Bookworm85

Lucy8080 wrote: »

maybe i have to put a bit of spirit into this converstaion against the money counters.

i know u all have a neighbour /friend u are seething at internally/judging..and its killing ya...its eating u up inside

but the child hasnt a clue where the money comes from.and does not have those stresses u are all suffering from. and if it recalls this when an adult...will make this world a little easier for all who come in contact with him/her.

What has this got to do with people abusing a welfare payment meant for people who are in genuine need?

This has nothing to do with what the topic is about!

And yes the child has little/limited/no knowledge of where the money comes from, but does that mean that it is ok for people to defraud the system in order to have a party, regardless of whether it is 'for the childer'.

This whole attitude of 'its only 3 million' is rotten. The 3 million is for people who genuinely need it, not for 'religious' people to have a party and to line their kids pockets!

strobe

I too, am outraged.

Lucy8080

lol,strobe.

Lucy8080

bookworm,

the only people defrauding the system are those who are not entitled to the claim.

if ya go through the system...those defrauding are targeting other areas of the system week in week out.


some good parents need this little one off help out. im sure some dont ...but claim it all the same...nevertheless///ill take the small risk on a one off payment for the child.

the big fraud is in other areas of the social welfare system...

i went to two weddings in one year ....i wasnt claiming the dole...but i declined a third invite because i couldnt afford it.

its a pressure...keeping face.

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

maybe i have to put a bit of spirit into this converstaion against the money counters.

Given the reduced circumstances of our nation, we are all now money counters.

i know u all have a neighbour /friend u are seething at internally/judging..and its killing ya...its eating u up inside

Nope, if I did they'd have been reported for welfare fraud ages ago.
This is nothing personal. It's about the abuse of public money.
The government has no money - it only has our money (taxes) or borrowing (paid by future taxes.)

but the child hasnt a clue where the money comes from.and does not have those stresses u are all suffering from.

Great but we can't be age 7 forever and expect other people to pick up all our bills - or can we?

and if it recalls this when an adult...will make this world a little easier for all who come in contact with him/her.

yeah, that's great, really gives me a warm feeling inside to know that some net drain on society feels better about themselves.

Lucy8080

ninja...ur trying too hard. i think u have a great future ahead of u.


what was that about xmas and pagans again...knocked my socks off.

the reduced circumstances of our nation..omy.

abuse of public money...omy.

cant be 7 forever...omy.

that net drain on society...does that come from treating kids well /or unwell.

i hope u have applied for the civil service...one day u will be minister of finance...and all our probs will be over.

Bookworm85

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bookworm,

the only people defrauding the system are those who are not entitled to the claim.

if ya go through the system...those defrauding are targeting other areas of the system week in week out.


some good parents need this little one off help out. im sure some dont ...but claim it all the same...nevertheless///ill take the small risk on a one off payment for the child.

the big fraud is in other areas of the social welfare system...

i went to two weddings in one year ....i wasnt claiming the dole...but i declined a third invite because i couldnt afford it.

its a pressure...keeping face.

Is that a dig at me lucy? I have no problem openly admitting that I went to weddings when I was in receipt of my claim, however if you read my original post on this thread again you will see that there were others that I was invited to but didn't go to because I couldn't afford it. At no time did I consider asking the Social Welfare to give me extra funds to send me off to enjoy a party, or to dress myself for these occassions. I budgeted and saved what I could and used these savings to attend.

Ok maybe fraud was the wrong choice of words, maybe 'taking advantage' would suit my stance properly.

Like I said before I have no problem with people claiming this payment if the GENUINELY need it, but to claim such funds when you have had years to budget and save is morally wrong. I could care less if its 'for the kids', that money is for people who are genuinely suffering hardship, not for people wanting to get dressed up for a 'religious/cultural' event

I have no doubt that there is real 'fraud' going on within the SW system, and if I ever come across anybody committing such fraud I'll have no hesitation in reporting them to the authorities.

You still haven't answered my question in my last post to you.

Lucy8080

bookworm

actually ,it was not a dig, im sure ur claims were legitimate. but im sure also you could have forseen being invited to weddings when you hit a certain age.

like i could. but i didnt save for them.

the fact u were claiming and i was not when they occurred , is neither here nor there.

the expense was beyond both our means to accept all invites.

for some parents the expense of a communnion hits them...despite their unplanned circumstances....


and aint it much easier for me or you to lose face personally...

in comparison to losing face for a child of ours. that hurts. ask a parent.

apologies if my last post to you was worded in a way that gave offence.

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

the expense was beyond both our means to accept all invites.

Suck it up. My brother in law works very hard, never on the dole in his life, but can't afford to accept all the wedding invitations he's got in the last couple of years.

Lucy8080

ninja...you make me laugh. #.

MrPudding

@Lucy8080, you seem to think that people are suggesting we cancel communion. No one is saying that. No one is saying kids can't have their special day. All that is being said is the taxpayer should not be paying for it.

I think your attempt to connect SW payments for communion with economic activity is a little odd as well. I presume you are joking? Either way, why would the amount of money a child collects from relatives be dependent on whether or not the family received a SW payment towards the event?

The communion is not cancelled if they don't receive the payment, it still goes ahead.

People should be lobbying their priests to convince them to make communion more affordable for families. They have the power to dictate what can be worn for the ceremony, and many of them already have a school uniform only policy.

The tax payer should not be paying for this, so I am quite happy with the reduction, though I would have been happier with the payments stopping completely.

On a related note, the article also mentions the cutting of funding for furniture for many. I am less happy with this as I think that is something that is justifiable in certain circumstances.

MrP

magicbastarder

MrPudding wrote: »

The tax payer should not be paying for this, so I am quite happy with the reduction, though I would have been happier with the payments stopping completely.

i still think this is a sideshow compared to the fact that communion is an opt-out rather than an opt-in in 90% of schools in ireland.

i'd be curious to hear (though i doubt records are kept) of how many parents choose to remove their kids from communion preparations. do i remember reading a thread on here about someone who met with resistance from the school on the matter?

Ickle Magoo

Even if the ceremony IS opt-out - which part of a €20 gown requires hundreds of euros of tax-payers money being taken from coffers set aside for those with genuine exceptional needs.

How many nurses or SNA's would three million a year fund? It's just mind boggling in this apparent "austerity" when cuts are being made in education, health, adult education - things that can really change peoples lives that €3mil gets thrown away on something as frivolous as a knees up for one religion and there are actually people defending that practice. Mind boggling.

Delirium

Indeed. Must have been a right kick in the teeth to people who have relatives on trolleys in hospitals when they heard about this payment.

Hotblack Desiato

Only the 'professional' SW claimants would have been aware of this payment up until now.

Given all the publicity, the number of claims this year is probably going to go through the roof... senseless to acknowledge that a payment is unjustified but then cut it instead of abolishing it entirely. Senseless, but typical.

This government has no cojones (thanks to Labour). Mini-budget on the way as the optimistic growth figures get shown up. More taxes on working people so the 'vulnerable' professional SW claimaints can continue in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.

The longer this sort of crap continues, the greater the likelihood of an Irish Thatcher coming along to really shake things up

magicbastarder

and then we'll *really* be ****ed.

iguana

koth wrote: »

Indeed. Must have been a right kick in the teeth to people who have relatives on trolleys in hospitals when they heard about this payment.

Too true. I was in Tallaght hospital last month, having spenty first night on a trolley by a door, following a sixteen hour wait in a&e, when it was announced on the news that 50 beds were to be shut. It's utterly sickening that this money is being wasted when our health care system is such mess.

SerialComplaint

ninja900 wrote: »

This government has no cojones (thanks to Labour).

You're referring to the current Government which has cut back dramatically on this particular allowance for the first time in a generation?

ninja900 wrote: »

The longer this sort of crap continues, the greater the likelihood of an Irish Thatcher coming along to really shake things up

We've had the Irish Thatcher, and the good people of Ireland sent Harney and the PDs and their promises to 'be radical' packing.

Kivaro

iguana wrote: »

Too true. I was in Tallaght hospital last month, having spenty first night on a trolley by a door, following a sixteen hour wait in a&e, when it was announced on the news that 50 beds were to be shut. It's utterly sickening that this money is being wasted when our health care system is such mess.

Being out foreign, I had a friend from Ireland visiting me during the week. On the highway we passed a digital sign that stated a '5 minute' wait at our local hospital ER. On they way back, it was '12 minutes'. He was dumbfounded.

Just sayin' .................... things can be 'fixed' with the right mentality.

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

You're referring to the current Government which has cut back dramatically on this particular allowance for the first time in a generation?

But didn't have the balls to abolish it entirely, as they should have done.

We've had the Irish Thatcher, and the good people of Ireland sent Harney and the PDs and their promises to 'be radical' packing.

Are you kidding me? Harney and her party enabled 'socialist' Bertie to whack up public expenditure like it was going out of style, including massive SW increases which are politically very difficult to claw back. She agreed with the idiotic decentralisation scheme that wasted well over €1 billion. She was a member of the government which introduced benchmarking and allowed public sector numbers to grow strongly. She herself introduced the minimum wage and then increased to a high level compared with our competitors. Do these sound like the actions of a so-called right winger?

Galvasean

Hmmm, last 5 or 6 pages have consisted of Lucy8080 repeating the argument "But it's nice!!" while displaying no concept of priorities.
3 million per year is nothing? How many Gardaí or nurses could the state employ to do some actual good with that money?

Delirium

the fund should be renamed from "exceptional needs payment" to "keeping up appearances/with the Joneses payment"

gcgirl

Take communion and confirmation out of schools completely, if you want to teach your kids do it yourself on your own back, I can garentee less people will be making their communion/confirmation as most don't even bother with Sunday mass and then you will see less claims being made

magicbastarder

Galvasean wrote: »

3 million per year is nothing? How many Gardaí or nurses could the state employ to do some actual good with that money?

50, possibly.
i know of a single public organisation - and not the largest one by any stretch - which has according to my source, 39 people employed in the recruitment section in HR. they haven't hired anyone in about three years.

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

50, possibly.
i know of a single public organisation - and not the largest one by any stretch - which has according to my source, 39 people employed in the recruitment section in HR. they haven't hired anyone in about three years.

How can they when we're giving 3 million euro away to people so they can buy dresses?

magicbastarder

all we need to do is fix the communion dress problem and we'll be able to reinstate the metro programme and give bertie back his state car.

SerialComplaint

magicbastarder wrote: »

50, possibly.
i know of a single public organisation - and not the largest one by any stretch - which has according to my source, 39 people employed in the recruitment section in HR. they haven't hired anyone in about three years.

Please name the public organisation. You're not breaching any confidentiality, as the staffing of public bodies is in the public domain.

ninja900 wrote: »

But didn't have the balls to abolish it entirely, as they should have done.

You need to bring people with you in politics. There is no point in doing the right thing if you get so many people's backs up that you lose control of your agenda. At a guess, the significant cutback was test, and the complete elimination will be a year or two down the line.

ninja900 wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Harney and her party enabled 'socialist' Bertie to whack up public expenditure like it was going out of style, including massive SW increases which are politically very difficult to claw back. She agreed with the idiotic decentralisation scheme that wasted well over €1 billion. She was a member of the government which introduced benchmarking and allowed public sector numbers to grow strongly. She herself introduced the minimum wage and then increased to a high level compared with our competitors. Do these sound like the actions of a so-called right winger?

Harney privatised anything she could, and forced the HSE and public bodies to spend a fortune on preparing for her pet project - co-location. She lowered taxes on the rich and bought in a wide variety of tax breaks for the wealthy. The Irish people kicked her out.

magicbastarder

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Please name the public organisation. You're not breaching any confidentiality, as the staffing of public bodies is in the public domain.

dublin city council.

qrrgprgua

mikemac wrote: »

Wearing the school uniform would solve a lot of this.

I don't know why every school board of management doesn't start that rule.
Maybe some parents are objecting.

EXACTLY!!!!! While I am Catholic, I 100% think that the focus is turned on stupid secondary issues like "the dress"... and to add insult to it all the state is funding those who can't afford the over the top dress.

School uniform is absolutely fine.

In Poland they use a simple white rob that the Church supplies. All kids the same, no family expense.

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

You need to bring people with you in politics. There is no point in doing the right thing if you get so many people's backs up that you lose control of your agenda. At a guess, the significant cutback was test, and the complete elimination will be a year or two down the line.

From what I can see (meatspace not just boards ) the Irish public are strongly in favour of the immediate elimination of this payment.

Harney privatised anything she could, and forced the HSE and public bodies to spend a fortune on preparing for her pet project - co-location. She lowered taxes on the rich and bought in a wide variety of tax breaks for the wealthy. The Irish peopl/i]e kicked her out.

That is just a load of propaganda.
Harney didn't privatise anything. We still have an economy with a heavy state-owned element (even ignoring the banks) the only real privatisation was Eircom and that was Mammy O'Rourke's baby.
Co-location was a great idea in principle. There is no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients - let them go to a private hospital and free up public beds for public patients. That in essence is all that co-location was, but the leftist propaganda against it painted it as something else entirely. It was very interesting to hear Joe Higgins and Mary Lou giving out about VHI increases the other day...

Basically MH was demonised because she didn't buy into the soft-left consensus, she was a woman, and she was somewhat overweight.

Lucy8080

mr. p,

i dont think people are suggesting cancelling communion.

if ya dont like my attempts to connect communion day with economic activity...let me hand you over to ninja...

who rightly pointed out...that in straightened times we are in...most people were not aware of this payment.

now they are.

even if the entitlement is halved....i bet the claims quadruple.

most athiests down the pub....if they have a little 7 yr old daughter coming up for communion this yr...are going to kit her out.

but now...those who were saving...have just realised an entitlment they were unaware of.

i hope every family claims it.

a gov. department going for 7 yr olds ...for publicity purposes ...i hope it backfires

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

most athiests down the pub....if they have a little 7 yr old daughter coming up for communion this yr...are going to kit her out.

Explain to me why an atheist would allow their child take part in a religious ritual?

Lucy8080

grrg,

i hope as a polish person ur experience of ireland is positive.

i find the polish an addition to this country.

but this is ireland...i want to take the catholic church out of this discussion...and put it on a cultural footing...

we have been doing the white dress thing for 7 yr old irish girls for generations. even before the celtic tiger arose and disappeared.

im sure even before the celtic tiger there was this payment for families who were struggling...during the celtic tiger nobody gave a toss .....and now ...we want to bitch about communion dresses and a little fund that always existed for irish families.

in other countries families make communion within their parish....in ireland its a classmate thing. we do it with the class.

i think the times are changing...and the custom may go out of the classroom ...but while 7 yr old are making their communion with clasmates...as their parent and grandparents did...that social pressure should be considered by the state.

like it always has been.

its a hard pressure on a parent in these times we are in.

if it was purely a parish thing...the parent could wait and save.

Oracle

About Dublin City Council and the HR that is surprising, although HR do more than just hire people. The department does sound very over-staffed, maybe some could be re-deployed elsewhere.

Lucy8080

god love all here who think ur gonna get 50 nurses .

lol.

Lucy8080

galvasean,

but it is nice galvasean. little white dresses in the may sunshine. you auld curmudgen.

of course ..we should strip em all...and fund the guards and hospitals...

we will all live to one hundred in a safe and peaceful ireland .

i dunno how we didnt spot the enemy within before...in their lil white dresses and communion suits.

time to man the g.p.o. again...next communion day.

Sarky

Your ability to miss the point is truly astounding sometimes.

Lucy8080

ninja,
you asked me to explain why an athiest would allow their child to take part in communion?

get real. some of them are married (the wife).. some of them have parents and grandparents...and feel its not worth the hassle. some of them are just easy going and suspect their kids will not care much for religion as they grow...and will fill em in as they age.

and there are many more reasons....

but as i have suggested time and time again....there is a cultural aspect to the communion day...

and even athiests can be easy osey about it.

it doesnt make em hippocrites...no more than if they like the sound christmas carol in december.


and ur burying ur head in the sand if u think there is not this dichotomy amongst athiests and the culture they grew up in.

they dont throw everything out. some have a balance in their outlook on life.

Lucy8080

whats the point sarky?

ur ability for black and white scenarios / im right ur wrong...

i find that astounding.

maybe u miss the point sometimes my friend.

SerialComplaint

magicbastarder wrote: »

50, possibly.
i know of a single public organisation - and not the largest one by any stretch - which has according to my source, 39 people employed in the recruitment section in HR. they haven't hired anyone in about three years.

magicbastarder wrote: »

dublin city council.

The staffing of the DCC's HR dept can be found at Page 40 of http://www.dublincity.ie/p20/DCCServices.pdf There is nothing near to 39 people in the entire HR dept. There is nobody in the HR dept looking after recruitment. Don't believe everything you hear in the pub.

ninja900 wrote: »

From what I can see (meatspace not just boards ) the Irish public are strongly in favour of the immediate elimination of this payment.

Right, so you see how that worked - they've brought people with them, and set up for the complete elimination of the payment next time round.

ninja900 wrote: »

That is just a load of propaganda.
Harney didn't privatise anything. We still have an economy with a heavy state-owned element (even ignoring the banks) the only real privatisation was Eircom and that was Mammy O'Rourke's baby.
Co-location was a great idea in principle. There is no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients - let them go to a private hospital and free up public beds for public patients. That in essence is all that co-location was, but the leftist propaganda against it painted it as something else entirely. It was very interesting to hear Joe Higgins and Mary Lou giving out about VHI increases the other day...
.

Nice to see we can agree on oone thing - there is indeed no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients. So why did Harney and McCreevy create special tax breaks for private hospitals, private nursing homes, private sports clinics? Let private medical services stand on its own two feet and not be subsidised by the State.

Harney inflated the budget of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which made sure that consultants were paid twice for treating the same patient - first as a public patient, and then as a private patient. Harney created the HSE, the dysfunctional mammoth organisation that has screwed up management of our health services for a generation. Harney created HIQA, which then conveniently gave their PR contract to Harney's husband's firm - coincidence I'm sure. I guess he was running out of public funds as his term as Chairperson of FAS (appointed by Harney just months before their marriage) was running out.

ninja900 wrote: »

Basically MH was demonised because she didn't buy into the soft-left consensus, she was a woman, and she was somewhat overweight.

Harney was demonised because she had the blood of Susie Long and others who died waiting for services in Harney's dysfunctional public health system on her hands.

Galvasean

Lucy8080 wrote: »

galvasean,

but it is nice galvasean. little white dresses in the may sunshine. you auld curmudgen.

of course ..we should strip em all...and fund the guards and hospitals...

we will all live to one hundred in a safe and peaceful ireland .

i dunno how we didnt spot the enemy within before...in their lil white dresses and communion suits.

time to man the g.p.o. again...next communion day.

You posts are growing more and more idiotic. There is simply no way to sugarcoat it at this point.

number10a

Not sure if I would be taking this off-topic by saying this, but I love being the bearer of good news.

I'm almost qualified as a primary school teacher at this stage, and going through the religious education part of the training, I was told by someone who would be close to Diarmuid Martin that the plan is that within the next ten years to take communion and confirmation preparation out of the classroom on a phased basis (à la moving communion from 1st to 2nd class) and into something like Sunday school. Apparently it is being piloted in three parishes in the Dublin commuter belt already and it is seriously reducing the number of cultural Catholics taking part because Mass attendance is monitored etc. Dress code is also an issue that is being tackled with the school uniform being the default choice for the ocassion.

So the sooner this day comes, the better.

Now, I'll let ye get back on topic.

Gurgle

number10a wrote: »

the plan is that within the next ten years to take communion and confirmation preparation out of the classroom on a phased basis (à la moving communion from 1st to 2nd class) and into something like Sunday school.

Oh please let this be true.

magicbastarder

SerialComplaint wrote: »

The staffing of the DCC's HR dept can be found at Page 40 of http://www.dublincity.ie/p20/DCCServices.pdf There is nothing near to 39 people in the entire HR dept. There is nobody in the HR dept looking after recruitment. Don't believe everything you hear in the pub.

fair cop, i checked and it turns out i misunderstood my source, who said they understand HR has 39 in total; i thought they'd said 39 in recruitment.

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

get real. some of them are married (the wife).. some of them have parents and grandparents...and feel its not worth the hassle. some of them are just easy going and suspect their kids will not care much for religion as they grow...and will fill em in as they age.

Either you have a principle, or you don't. Few religious people wouldn't let their kid take part in ceremonies that admit them to a different religion, why would atheists be any different?

but as i have suggested time and time again....there is a cultural aspect to the communion day...

and even athiests can be easy osey about it.

it doesnt make em hippocrites...no more than if they like the sound christmas carol in december.

It absolutely is hypocrisy to take part in a religious ceremony you don't believe in, or make your kids take part in one you don't believe in. This is widespread though, a lot of parents and godparents go to baptisms and make promises about the kid's religious upbringing they have no intention of keeping. These are cultural catholics who don't really believe, don't take part but aren't willing to be 'different' and not put their kids through the rituals. They are not people who identify as atheists.

A few atheists might be willing to go along with these ceremonies due to spousal/family pressure but they're unlikely to be happy about it.

and ur burying ur head in the sand if u think there is not this dichotomy amongst athiests and the culture they grew up in.

they dont throw everything out. some have a balance in their outlook on life.

There is absolutely a dichotomy, but among the cultural catholics, not people who actually identify as atheists.
Do you think atheists don't have a balanced outlook on life - I'm not sure what's that supposed to mean.

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Nice to see we can agree on oone thing - there is indeed no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients. So why did Harney and McCreevy create special tax breaks for private hospitals, private nursing homes, private sports clinics? Let private medical services stand on its own two feet and not be subsidised by the State.

There should have been no property tax breaks of any kind, especially when it became clear that a property boom was developing.

Harney inflated the budget of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which made sure that consultants were paid twice for treating the same patient - first as a public patient, and then as a private patient.

Agreed but there was a lot of political pressure to get waiting lists down. The system of dual public/private practising is dysfunctional and should be eliminated. The new contract for consultants is better in that regard (but overpays them...)

Harney created the HSE, the dysfunctional mammoth organisation that has screwed up management of our health services for a generation.

The problem with the HSE was that it just absorbed the existing admin structures (and staff) of the old health boards and then tried to reform them. The old HB structures were completely dysfuntional and financially wasteful. The HSE should have been set up with a completely different structure and HB admin staff should have been invited to apply for jobs in the HSE (50% succeed and the other 50% let go) but under union pressure she guaranteed that no jobs would be eliminated.

Harney created HIQA, which then conveniently gave their PR contract to Harney's husband's firm - coincidence I'm sure. I guess he was running out of public funds as his term as Chairperson of FAS (appointed by Harney just months before their marriage) was running out.

That's simply not acceptable.

Harney was demonised because she had the blood of Susie Long and others who died waiting for services in Harney's dysfunctional public health system on her hands.

Yeah and people said the same things about Noonan and others before her. At least she tried to change a completely dysfunctional organisational structure, FG had talked about abolishing HBs for years but in govt they did nothing. She failed due to lack of backing in cabinet imho (think: Bertie populism) and the opposition of the health unions. The interests of patients and taxpayers come some way down the list compared to the vested interests of consultants, nurses, unions etc.

Her failure wasn't that she was right wing, it's that she wasn't nearly right wing enough and didn't have the backing in cabinet to make and enforce hard decisions.

SerialComplaint

ninja900 wrote: »

There should have been no property tax breaks of any kind, especially when it became clear that a property boom was developing.

Agreed but there was a lot of political pressure to get waiting lists down. The system of dual public/private practising is dysfunctional and should be eliminated. The new contract for consultants is better in that regard (but overpays them...)

The problem with the HSE was that it just absorbed the existing admin structures (and staff) of the old health boards and then tried to reform them. The old HB structures were completely dysfuntional and financially wasteful. The HSE should have been set up with a completely different structure and HB admin staff should have been invited to apply for jobs in the HSE (50% succeed and the other 50% let go) but under union pressure she guaranteed that no jobs would be eliminated.

That's simply not acceptable.

There is more than a touch of Life of Brian with much of your post. Remember the 'So apart from the aqueduct, health, education and law and order, what did the Romans ever do for us?' bits. So apart from Harney's monumental screw-ups and personal feathering of nests, she was really great - right?

ninja900 wrote: »

She failed due to lack of backing in cabinet imho (think: Bertie populism) and the opposition of the health unions. The interests of patients and taxpayers come some way down the list compared to the vested interests of consultants, nurses, unions etc.

Her failure wasn't that she was right wing, it's that she wasn't nearly right wing enough and didn't have the backing in cabinet to make and enforce hard decisions.

She failed because she was ideologically driven, not evidence driven. She implemented the policies that she really, really wanted to work. She should have looked at what worked elsewhere, and implemented that.