Urinating in Public

stevie.enright

Hi All, rather unfortunate circumstances that I need to visit this forum.

I'll cut a long story as short as possible. I was out drinking with a friend at the weekend. We were finishing off our last drink in the smoking area outside the front of a bar. I needed to releive myself before we made our way to get a taxi so I asked the doorman if I could go in to go to toilet (In a nice corteous manner I may add). He said no so I asked again, again nicely at which point he left another customer into the bar (a friend of his I can only assume). I pointed this out to him while remaining most corteous and he told me to go down to other door and ask there which I did. I was also refused entry there and told to go to a nearby chipper.

I went up to other door again and asked again and told no. I was absolutely raging at this point, in particular as another guy was let in. I may add that although I had a few drinks on board I was by not means intoxicated and I was corteous up until that point. I then proceeded to pee in front of the door as a form of protest at the time if you will.

With that the doorman quickly ran for me and pulled me to the side of the building. My friend then intervined and tried to pull him off me. More bouncers came and knocked my friend to ground.

They held him down by the throat and I attempted to help him but was restrained. I seen him pleading surrender but they continued to hold him to ground for some time after this. He had difficulty with his troat immediately after and his glasses were twisted about. He coughed up some amount of spittle with blood also. He had considerable discomfort for some time after and could not eat a dinner the day after. His troat is only feeling better now this evening (2 days later). To me it would seem that the bouncer used undue force.

We got away and told them we were going to the Guards which we did. We told the guard what happened but he did not take any statement as we clearly had drink on us (fair enough, thats the protocal). All the same it was quite obvious to me that the Guard was not wanting to help us from his attitude. He arranged to take a statement form my friend earlier today. I could not be around to give a statement today due to work committments.

In the meantime my friend learned through the grapevine yesterday that the Guards and the owner of the pub are hand in hand (after hours lock ins for Guards and other concessions etc etc.)...backward parochial Ireland at its finest.

My friend went into make his statement this evening and the Guard firstly told him that I would receive a summons. He also told my friend in no uncertain terms that he wont be going out of his way to assist him by co-operating with solicitors and whatever else it may entail.

My friend is arranging to speak to a solicitor in the morning. As it happens he didn't actully make a statement to the Guard this evening but has arranged to do so tomorrow afternoon (he said he wants to speak to a solicitor before he makes any statement).

Firstly, could someone advise what are the best legal avenues open to my friend given the current circumstances. Should he be contacting the Garda Ombudsman or another Garda station under the circumstances or otherwise as may be the case.

Secondly, what can I expect myself. Does the fact that I made the admission to the Guard when I had drink on board count for anything in the same manner that he could not take a statement when I had drink on me. Also, the fact is I was not caught by a member of Gardai Suichona urinating in public but I appreciate I am most likely on CCTV footage...Is that enough to secure a conviction against me for the nature of the crime? What could I expect in court regarding a fine and would I have a criminal record as a result of this (I have never being on the wrong side of the law before in my life).

Any inputs or thoughts greatly appreciated and again sorry for the severe length of the post

Owen

No one's going to advise you here. This forum isn't for legal advice, speak to a solicitor.

muboop1

I cannot be 100% certain but this might be better received if it was a hypothetical question?

Marcusm

Yours is the sort of story which appears weekly in most provincial newspapers and I guess only appears as there is an element of incitement on the part of the offender (please don't take offence by this phrase) meaning either that the person is already known to the authorities or they have acted in a flagrant or inciteful manner.

I'm assuming it was past closing time which means that you have no legitimate reason to complain that you were not let into the pub. It might be that they were letting their mates in to use the loo but it's a pity that the story didn't end there. At that stage, a quick slash behind a bush or at the back door would have been the best course of action.

Your friend sounds hard done by but is unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing due to the alcohol factor. I assume that the bouncers dragged you away from the CCTV and that any assault on your friend was not independently witnessed?

You need to speak with a solicitor as having gone to the barracks, I imagine that you have raised the issue to the GArdai's attention and they may consider a prosecution. I imagine a good solicitor might be able to come up with a strategy which either leads to the bouncers calming down, i.e. not presenting evidence or making a formal report (which might be required to commence the prosecution) or alternatively, int he event of a prosecution, to obtain the benefit of the Probation Act.

Next time (and I speak from a position where I both like alcohol and can get on my high horse too) remember to piss before you go outside.

Zambia

You do realise all of this is your fault? Legal aspect aside of course.

MagicSean

I'm curious as to why someone in your position whould be looking to proceed with this when they could be looking at charges for exposing themselves and possibly criminal damage.

I can't understand why people seem to think they have this right to piss wherever they want just because they drank too much and have reverted to child like states. Maybe adult nappies should be sold in pub toilets for these people who can't cope with alcohol.

stevie.enright

Marcusm wrote: »

Yours is the sort of story which appears weekly in most provincial newspapers and I guess only appears as there is an element of incitement on the part of the offender (please don't take offence by this phrase) meaning either that the person is already known to the authorities or they have acted in a flagrant or inciteful manner.

I fully accept my behaviour was unacceptable. For the record I have never being in trouble with the law before. I accept I did act in a flagrant and inciteful manner as you put it Marcusm but such is out of character of me for that matter. I will usually try to avoid confrontation if possible. Although I had 3 and a half pints of light beer on me I was by no means drunk and as I say remainded corteous up to the point where I urinated on footpath. For me being well mannered about the matter and him letting another guy in was like a red rag to a bull with me...just totally pressed the wrong buttons. I appreciate it does not excuse my behaviour though.

Marcusm wrote: »

I'm assuming it was past closing time which means that you have no legitimate reason to complain that you were not let into the pub.

On that point it was not past closing time Marcusm. The DJ announced a closing time of 2:30 earlier...It being a late disco bar type of establishment.

Marcusm wrote: »

Your friend sounds hard done by but is unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing due to the alcohol factor. I assume that the bouncers dragged you away from the CCTV and that any assault on your friend was not independently witnessed?

Very true and I do sincerely wish it was me that was on the receiving end rather than him. The main reason I'm following up on the matter here is that I would like it to pan out that he gets some form of justice out of this. He was at the doctors today and the doctor determined that his troat muscles were strained as a result of the incident. His own solicitor was not in the office today but he has arranged an apointment with her tomorrow. It does not help that the Guards are hand in hand with the pub owner. It would seem its always going to be a loosing battle.

Marcusm wrote: »

Next time (and I speak from a position where I both like alcohol and can get on my high horse too) remember to piss before you go outside.

There certainly won't be a next time in that pub anyway. My friend has heard since from a friend of his that he witnessed a guy being repeatadly kicked while on the ground by 6 bouncers from the same joint. Same guy told him that at least one of the bouncers is a cage fighter. Thanks for your input by the way Marcusm.

stevie.enright

Zambia wrote: »

You do realise all of this is your fault? Legal aspect aside of course.

No I don't. That doorman is certainly answerable too.

stevie.enright

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I'm curious as to why someone in your position whould be looking to proceed with this when they could be looking at charges for exposing themselves and possibly criminal damage.

I am looking for justice for my friend for the way unwarranted force was used against him. Thats my main agenda

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I can't understand why people seem to think they have this right to piss wherever they want just because they drank too much and have reverted to child like states. Maybe adult nappies should be sold in pub toilets for these people who can't cope with alcohol.

You might be nearly too high up on that highhorse of yours to make it down to the keyboard I think. I don't think I have any right to piss wherever. If you read that thread properly you should have picked up on the fact that I was dealt with in a most unfair and oppressive and unfair manner. Granted I do have a weak bladder but the same would be the case if I had being drinking water in any event. I cant say I ever get intoxicated such that I carry on in an antisocial manner (I know my limit and wont surpass it) and the same was the case last Friday night up until the point that I urinated on the footpath. I sincerely hope your bladder never goes weak or you spend time in the company of someone with a weak bladder for that matter by the way. Is yours cast iron?

Zambia

stevie.enright wrote: »

No I don't. That doorman is certainly answerable too.

True.

Del2005

stevie.enright wrote: »

I fully accept my behaviour was unacceptable. For the record I have never being in trouble with the law before. I accept I did act in a flagrant and inciteful manner as you put it Marcusm but such is out of character of me for that matter. I will usually try to avoid confrontation if possible. Although I had 3 and a half pints of light beer on me I was by no means drunk and as I say remainded corteous up to the point where I urinated on footpath. For me being well mannered about the matter and him letting another guy in was like a red rag to a bull with me...just totally pressed the wrong buttons. I appreciate it does not excuse my behaviour though.

Just to point out. Light beer is low calorie beer, you still have a high alcohol content in light beers.

I like the fact that you remained courteous till you started p!ssing outside their door. You've no right to enter a pub. How would you react if someone started p!ssing in front of you and possibly on you? They see nice people turn nasty ever night of the week.


In saying all that, what the bouncers did was out of order.

blueythebear

stevie.enright wrote: »

You might be nearly too high up on that highhorse of yours to make it down to the keyboard I think. I don't think I have any right to piss wherever. If you read that thread properly you should have picked up on the fact that I was dealt with in a most unfair and oppressive and unfair manner. Granted I do have a weak bladder but the same would be the case if I had being drinking water in any event. I cant say I ever get intoxicated such that I carry on in an antisocial manner (I know my limit and wont surpass it) and the same was the case last Friday night up until the point that I urinated on the footpath. I sincerely hope your bladder never goes weak or you spend time in the company of someone with a weak bladder for that matter by the way. Is yours cast iron?

I don't think weak bladders come into it and that type of comment/excuse does your cause no help whatsoever. I'm not taking a stance on the incident itself but what is likely to follow if proceedings issue:

You said you went to the guards and they refused to deal with it due to the fact that you obviously had drink on you. So if a Garda witness was called on your friend's behalf, he could attest to the fact that you and your friend had obviously been drinking and it was to such an extent that he refused to deal with you both.

CCTV, if available, will most likely show you p***ing in the door or near it "as a form of protest" so i'm sure it was well within sight of the bouncer and possibly even on him or on the pub itself, either way, in a manner designed to insult or goad him. It will then show one bouncer grab you and bring you round the side. Then your friend tried to intervene and was taken down. It is likely that CCTV doesn't cover the side of the building or is not that helpful to you. The bouncers will tell a consistent story that they used reasonable force in the circumstances and will all attest to the fact they felt you were both drunk.

The Garda who you contacted may also be asked to give evidence that you were drunk.

This isn't legal advice, rather just how I see it panning out and this is not an incident worth pursuing legal proceedings over. Apart from the above problems, the whole thing is not worth an awful lot in compensation for the risk you run. If you really are exercised about it, write to the bar and complain but I wouldn't recommend him suing.

Zambia

I have a question under law is urinating at somebody a form of assault?

I mean spitting is an offence
http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/27774

http://www.corkman.ie/news/conviction-no80-for-spitting-in-gardas-face-2389682.html

Is urinating at somebody or close enough to someone that a reasonable person would fear being urinated on?

OP this might be worth looking at in relation to offences
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0006.html#zza2y1994s6

Reloc8

Yes it is quite possible that urinating at some one constitutes an assault.

The OP has no axe to grind here at all. He pissed at someone's premises, which is against the law, constituting a breach of the peace at least. He was restrained from doing so. He makes absolutely no complaint of undue force being used to restrain him.

His friend then foolishly intervened and was knocked to the ground by other bouncers, and restrained. His friend and the OP both believe the bouncers to have used excessive force in doing this. Any question of them doing so arises solely between the OP's friend and the bouncers.

The OP's friend is clearly going down the claims route - that's a matter for him.

The OP seems to want to press charges against the bouncers. However, he has no grievance directly against them aside from being a witness to an alleged assault on his mate, and having committed an offence himself.

The OP's friend seems to have engaged a solicitor.

Which is ultimately what the OP should do in the very near future.

QED ?

Finnbar01

Slightly off topic but is spitting in public actually legal? I think it was my father who told me that it used to be/is banned as it spread diseases like TB.

Also saliva is much more dangerous than urine.

Reloc8

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Slightly off topic but is spitting in public actually legal?

Section 6 Criminal Justice Public Order Act 1994 would cover it.

Finnbar01

Reloc8 wrote: »

Section 6 Criminal Justice Public Order Act 1994 would cover it.

I mean if I'm walking down the road and I just spit down unto the ground, could I be down for that?