Scottish Independence

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is it daft? Why shouldn't English people be given the same rights as the Scots or the Welsh? Why should the English put up with Scottish interference in matters that only affect England?

I've seen that argument made and it is a valid enough response to the nationalist rhetoric from various quarters. The English can point to this as evidence of their commitment to a mutually supportive and beneficial union.
As by far the largest member of the union it is hardly surprising they dominate in many areas but it's worth noting that the last two Labour Prime Ministers were Scottish born and Cameron has his Scottish connections.

Madam

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is it daft? Why shouldn't English people be given the same rights as the Scots or the Welsh? Why should the English put up with Scottish interference in matters that only affect England?

Don't see any reason why not but don't you see that we in the other 'wee' countries see the English as the rulers of all of our destiny's, and in reality they do call the shots in what happens all over the UK. No matter how many Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish token MP's there are in Westminister!

http://wingsoverscotland.com/come-on-labour-voters/#more-48675

http://noscotland.net/

Both sites make for some interesting reading:)

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

I've seen that argument made and it is a valid enough response to the nationalist rhetoric from various quarters. The English can point to this as evidence of their commitment to a mutually supportive and beneficial union.
As by far the largest member of the union it is hardly surprising they dominate in many areas but it's worth noting that the last two Labour Prime Ministers were Scottish born and Cameron has his Scottish connections.

Off the top of my head, Tony Blair's first cabinet included the PM, chancellor of the exchequer, Foreign Secretary and Secretary for defence, all Scottish born and bred. Four of the top six jobs.

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

Don't see any reason why not but don't you see that we in the other 'wee' countries see the English as the rulers of all of our destiny's, and in reality they do call the shots in what happens all over the UK. No matter how many Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish token MP's there are in Westminister!

http://wingsoverscotland.com/come-on-labour-voters/#more-48675

http://noscotland.net/

Both sites make for some interesting reading:)

As pointed out above, they aren't tokens.

First Up

Madam wrote: »

Don't see any reason why not but don't you see that we in the other 'wee' countries see the English as the rulers of all of our destiny's, and in reality they do call the shots in what happens all over the UK. No matter how many Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish token MP's there are in Westminister!

http://wingsoverscotland.com/come-on-labour-voters/#more-48675

http://noscotland.net/

Both sites make for some interesting reading:)

Kind of amusing that your argument echoes the anti- EU stance taken by the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP, of which the SNP and many other Scots are so critical.

If you grasp the concept of shared sovereignty in order to build a bigger and better whole, then you accept the give and take involved. If you are focused only on your own little patch, then you will always find something not to your liking.

smcgiff

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not independence, more federalisation, which is effectively what devo max would bring about for Scotland.

Need to tackle The Midlothian Question as well.

sfakiaman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not independence, more federalisation, which is effectively what devo max would bring about for Scotland.

Salmond wanted Devo Max as the third option in the referendum, this was refused by Cameron who realised that the vast majority of voters in Scotland would vote for it. Cameron has gambled that Project Fear will cause a no vote after which Westminster will be able will be able to claw back some of the benefits which have accrued to Scotland since devolution.

Fratton Fred

sfakiaman wrote: »

Salmond wanted Devo Max as the third option in the referendum, this was refused by Cameron who realised that the vast majority of voters in Scotland would vote for it. Cameron has gambled that Project Fear will cause a no vote after which Westminster will be able will be able to claw back some of the benefits which have accrued to Scotland since devolution.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

A Dub in Glasgo

Why?

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why?

Why should a privileged few be entitled to free prescriptions and university places?

Why should Scottish MPs be allowed to vote on matters in Westminster that only affect England?

A Dub in Glasgo

On the one hand you appear to support Devo Max or Federalism and then on the other hand you question why should the Scottish Government spend money in a different priority to the UK Government in England. Your position does not make sense

sfakiaman

smcgiff wrote: »

Need to tackle The Midlothian Question as well.

You probably mean the West Lothian question possited by Tam (the bam) Dalyell whose first seat was West Lothian.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/17/what-is-west-lothian-question

And not the Midlothian Question as mistakenly referred to my Michael Portillo in his error ridden article for the Sunday Times

http://www.michaelportillo.co.uk/articles/art_nipress/scotland.htm

A vote for independence will automatically make the West Lothian question irrelevant.

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

On the one hand you appear to support Devo Max or Federalism and then on the other hand you question why should the Scottish Government spend money in a different priority to the UK Government in England. Your position does not make sense

Unlike the SNP, I support everyone in the UK being treated equally, not a small minority being given lots of freebies in return for votes, which are, in turn, paid for by the majority.

We either have a federal UK or we don't, not some ala carte mish mash to suit the residents of Scotland.

A Dub in Glasgo

Actually the mish mash is at the behest of the Unionists, why are they afraid of a Devo Max or Federal arrangement? You betray your bigotry coming out with the above regarding the decisions of the Scottish Government who are more democratically elected than the UK Government

sfakiaman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Unlike the SNP, I support everyone in the UK being treated equally, not a small minority being given lots of freebies in return for votes, which are, in turn, paid for by the majority.

In that case I presume you will be campaigning for the abolition of the House of Lords. The attached article suggests that Scottish Lords are in fact British lords and if they moved their residence south of the border after independence they could still claim their £300 a day attendance fee and expenses, all while enjoying a jolly good feed in the House of Lords restaurant for £9.95.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8466-scottish-lords-can-keep-titles-after-independence-says-lib-dem-peer

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Actually the mish mash is at the behest of the Unionists, why are they afraid of a Devo Max or Federal arrangement? You betray your bigotry coming out with the above regarding the decisions of the Scottish Government who are more democratically elected than the UK Government

Bigotry? That's a joke, surely?

Why, because I think providing free university places to all eu citizens, except the English, Welsh or Northern Irish is wrong?

Quite what the electoral system of the UK has to do with the subject I don't know, just you looking for an excuse to find fault, again.

And he calls me a bigot
LoL.

Fratton Fred

sfakiaman wrote: »

In that case I presume you will be campaigning for the abolition of the House of Lords. The attached article suggests that Scottish Lords are in fact British lords and if they moved their residence south of the border after independence they could still claim their £300 a day attendance fee and expenses, all while enjoying a jolly good feed in the House of Lords restaurant for £9.95.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8466-scottish-lords-can-keep-titles-after-independence-says-lib-dem-peer

This is just another example of the whole ala carte thing tbh.

Yeah, we'd like independence
And our privileged jobs
And titles

They can piss off.

sfakiaman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is just another example of the whole ala carte thing tbh.

Yeah, we'd like independence
And our privileged jobs
And titles

They can piss off.

I think you'll find that the lords are opposed to independence for Scotland but I will agree with you that they want their privileged jobs and titles (which many of them paid for) and I totally agree that they can piss off. The problem for you is that they will piss off south of the border as there will be no house of lords in an independent Scotland.

I'm reminded of the end of the song "The Simple Highland Lairdie"

And if the Gaels return
And I am forced to flee
Let me be down in London town
Nearer my God to Thee.

Fratton Fred

sfakiaman wrote: »

I think you'll find that the lords are opposed to independence for Scotland but I will agree with you that they want their privileged jobs and titles (which many of them paid for) and I totally agree that they can piss off. The problem for you is that they will piss off south of the border as there will be no house of lords in an independent Scotland.

I'm reminded of the end of the song "The Simple Highland Lairdie"

And if the Gaels return
And I am forced to flee
Let me be down in London town
Nearer my God to Thee.

Which is why I think the whole thing is a crock of ****.

Simple yes or no question in Scotland, no gets it but there are enough yes votes to open the discussion on the wider future of the UK, not just the northern bit.

The English Democrats are having a tough time picking up the right sort of support at the moment, but it won't be long before they start giving ukip and bnp a run for their money and sensible people can start supporting a proper English nationalist party that isn't a pseudo fascist organisation.

sfakiaman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The English Democrats are having a tough time picking up the right sort of support at the moment, but it won't be long before they start giving ukip and bnp a run for their money and sensible people can start supporting a proper English nationalist party that isn't a pseudo fascist organisation.

Would you not consider that a successful independent Scotland with a democratically elected parliament would serve as an example to the many English regions that suffer under Westminster rule just as much as Scotland has. I don't know what English democrats you're thinking of, but the SNP gained votes because of a unique selling proposition and a willingness to be in it for the long haul.

If northern English democrats (say Manchester upwards) started to look at their area the same way as the SNP looked at Scotland, they might find that they have huge potential in agriculture, fisheries, tourism, water resources, potential hydro power etc, that given their own devolved government they could exploit to the benefit of the local population. This could lead to a useful federal system in England, Wales and NI to the benefit of all.

For Scotland it still has to be a yes vote.

Fratton Fred

sfakiaman wrote: »

Would you not consider that a successful independent Scotland with a democratically elected parliament would serve as an example to the many English regions that suffer under Westminster rule just as much as Scotland has. I don't know what English democrats you're thinking of, but the SNP gained votes because of a unique selling proposition and a willingness to be in it for the long haul.

If northern English democrats (say Manchester upwards) started to look at their area the same way as the SNP looked at Scotland, they might find that they have huge potential in agriculture, fisheries, tourism, water resources, potential hydro power etc, that given their own devolved government they could exploit to the benefit of the local population. This could lead to a useful federal system in England, Wales and NI to the benefit of all.

For Scotland it still has to be a yes vote.

The only area that benefits under that model is London and the south east.

sfakiaman

Rule Britannia, Britannia Waives the Rules.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-yes-might-not-mean-yes-1-3306137#

SCOTLAND may not get independence even if the Yes campaign wins the referendum, it was claimed today.

An unnamed senior colleague of Prime Minister David Cameron was quoted saying a Yes vote would not guarantee independence if negotiations between Edinburgh and London could not be completed satisfactorily, adding that the status quo would be “the default option”.

The campaign is really set to get down and dirty now. Remember 1979 when dead people got to vote NO!

norrie rugger

I can easily imagine it getting heated.
Who owns the airforce, navy, army equipment? Would England/Wales try to lay claim to all that?

Iwasfrozen

norrie rugger wrote: »

I can easily imagine it getting heated.
Who owns the airforce, navy, army equipment? Would England/Wales try to lay claim to all that?

Certainly. There's a large naval base on the west coast of Scotland where all the ships if not the base itself would need to remain English.

You have to remember the Scottish economy is tiny compared to Englands. It would be very hard for them to argue their claim on any shared infrastructure on economic terms. They'd have to resort to territorial claims which the English are very likely to simply ignore.

sfakiaman

norrie rugger wrote: »

I can easily imagine it getting heated.
Who owns the airforce, navy, army equipment? Would England/Wales try to lay claim to all that?

Logically and morally Scotland owns a percentage of all UK assets and owes a percentage of UK liabilities based on population or tax paid basis. I'm sure Westminster will regard all military assets as British, arguing that its the British Army, unlike for instance Police Scotland which has a separate national identity. Scottish members of the armed forces may take a different view and I'm sure that if Westminster tried to annex Redford Barracks in Edinburgh that strong words might be said.

djpbarry

sfakiaman wrote: »

Rule Britannia, Britannia Waives the Rules.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-yes-might-not-mean-yes-1-3306137#

SCOTLAND may not get independence even if the Yes campaign wins the referendum, it was claimed today.

An unnamed senior colleague of Prime Minister David Cameron was quoted saying a Yes vote would not guarantee independence if negotiations between Edinburgh and London could not be completed satisfactorily, adding that the status quo would be “the default option”.

Surely this is stating the obvious? Do people really think that Scotland will automatically become independent overnight in the event that the referendum returns a 'Yes'?

djpbarry

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's a large naval base on the west coast of Scotland where all the ships if not the base itself would need to remain English.

You mean remain British?

sfakiaman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Certainly. There's a large naval base on the west coast of Scotland where all the ships if not the base itself would need to remain English.

You have to remember the Scottish economy is tiny compared to Englands. It would be very hard for them to argue their claim on any shared infrastructure on economic terms. They'd have to resort to territorial claims which the English are very likely to simply ignore.

where all the ships if not the base itself would need to remain English
And there you have the Westminster thinking, its all English, besides if they want Trident back they can have it with Scotlands blessing.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Certainly. There's a large naval base on the west coast of Scotland where all the ships if not the base itself would need to remain English.

That would be Faslane & Coulport where WMD are stored & deployed. These will have to be relocated to somewhere else in England, Wales or NI should Scotland become independent

You have to remember the Scottish economy is tiny compared to Englands. It would be very hard for them to argue their claim on any shared infrastructure on economic terms. They'd have to resort to territorial claims which the English are very likely to simply ignore.

In other words, ignore democracy?

sfakiaman

djpbarry wrote: »

Surely this is stating the obvious? Do people really think that Scotland will automatically become independent overnight in the event that the referendum returns a 'Yes'?

24th March 2016 will be independence day in the event of a yes vote so Scotland will not become independent overnight. There will be a period of genuine negotiation after the Yes vote but Scotland will become independent.