Scottish Independence

Harry Angstrom

smcgiff wrote: »

He's only worried about the Basques.

He'll help out Cameron and Osborne as well. Politicians are as thick as thieves. You can see this in the Dail. FG tear strips out of FF in the Dail chamber and vice versa, but in the Dail Bar they're all great buddies.

smcgiff

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

He'll help out Cameron and Osborne as well. Politicians are as thick as thieves. You can see this in the Dail. FG tear strips out of FF in the Dail chamber and vice versa, but in the Dail Bar they're all great buddies.

Isn't Salmond a politician?

Plus, I don't think there's any great love between Spain and UK right now, look at Gibraltar.

Nah, I think it's mostly due to their own self interest with want away regions.

Harry Angstrom

smcgiff wrote: »

Isn't Salmond a politician?

Plus, I don't think there's any great love between Spain and UK right now, look at Gibraltar.

Nah, I think it's mostly due to their own self interest with want away regions.

As I said, these people put maintaining the status quo above any other issues.

First Up

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

As I said, these people put maintaining the status quo above any other issues.

Some people might see it as taking a mature, reflective and wide perspective of the consequences of a decision that to be frank, is being treated more like the result of a football match in some quarters.

COYW

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Barroso is a typical EU bureaucrat. He just wants to maintain the status quo.

I think that is a little unfair Harry Angstrom. Firstly, he was very cautious about his response and he also re-iterated that the question was theoretical as the decision lies with the Scottish people at the moment.

What he did do was add a layer of reality to the debate, a layer which seems to have disappeared of late and the whole referendum debate seems to have turned into some silly game of playground style one-upmanship. This decision will shape the lives of many young Scottish people for decades to come, it isn't Scotland v England at Hampden.

feargale

Would an independent Scotland have to apply to join the Commonwealth? If so, and if the answer were no, Balmoral might be going for a handy price.

Fratton Fred

feargale wrote: »

Would an independent Scotland have to apply to join the Commonwealth? If so, and if the answer were no, Balmoral might be going for a handy price.

You do know being in the comonwealth does not equal having Liz as monarch right?

Besides, being a republic has never been an option I believe.

djpbarry

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Barroso is a typical EU bureaucrat. He just wants to maintain the status quo.

In the sense that he doesn't want various regions around the EU declaring independence and expecting to be allowed straight back in to the club? Yeah, I guess he does.

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Cameron and Osborne must have been delighted to hear him saying that...

Because they're such big fans of the EU?

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

...just like Osborne saying that Scotland wouldn't necessarily be guaranteed to still be part of sterling if it gained its independence.

Which is surely just stating the bloody obvious?

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Muddying the waters and causing unnecessary public alarm is a great way of getting the electorate to vote No.

But the waters are muddy. Really muddy. Salmond would like everyone to believe that independence will lead to some sort of utopia in which Scotland get whatever it wants, whenever it wants. The Tories want everyone to believe that an independent Scotland will sink into the North Sea. The reality is somewhere in between, but nobody really knows where – there are a lot of unknowns and serious issues that are not being addressed in any meaningful way.

First Up

djpbarry wrote: »

In the sense that he doesn't want various regions around the EU declaring independence and expecting to be allowed straight back in to the club? Yeah, I guess he does.
Because they're such big fans of the EU?
Which is surely just stating the bloody obvious?
But the waters are muddy. Really muddy. Salmond would like everyone to believe that independence will lead to some sort of utopia in which Scotland get whatever it wants, whenever it wants. The Tories want everyone to believe that an independent Scotland will sink into the North Sea. The reality is somewhere in between, but nobody really knows where – there are a lot of unknowns and serious issues that are not being addressed in any meaningful way.

It reminds me of the "debates" over various referendums we've held, with their ritual opponents who accuse anyone who points out a fact they don't like as "scaremongering".

Like the Irish anti EU (and anti most things) lobby, they think that anyone who tries to consider all the consequences of a decision is being a spoilsport.

First Up

smcgiff wrote: »

He's only worried about the Basques.

Catalans

spank_inferno

Just watching BBC lunchtime news.

It seems the BBC have made up their mind to not be impartial.

Very editorialising.

First Up

spank_inferno wrote: »

Just watching BBC lunchtime news.

It seems the BBC have made up their mind to not be impartial.

Very editorialising.

In what way?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smcgiff wrote: »

He's only worried about the Basques.

Why would the Basques worry him? You do know he is Portuguese not Spanish?

First Up

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Why would the Basques worry him? You do know he is Portuguese not Spanish?

I assume he meant setting a precedent for other regions with nationalistic/seperatist leanings.

Fratton Fred

Is there a consitution in the white paper? There are a number of mandatory laws Scotland would require before entering the EU. Whilst these are fairly straightforward, without them being in place it is impossible to say for certain they could join.

feargale

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You do know being in the comonwealth does not equal having Liz as monarch right?

I do. I do. But one thing can lead to another. So, would Scotland have to apply to join the Commonwealth?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Besides, being a republic has never been an option I believe.

You'd never know what them pesky Scots would get up to if they were outside the EU.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

I do. I do. But one thing can lead to another. So, would Scotland have to apply to join the Commonwealth?



You'd never know what them pesky Scots would get up to if they were outside the EU.

No, the precedent set by Ireland would suggest Scotland would remain in the Commonwealth unless they chose to leave it.

Maybe but I doubt it, there are far too many royalists in Scotland to go down that path. Also Canada and Australia are outside the EU, still monarchies.

smcgiff

First Up wrote: »

I assume he meant setting a precedent for other regions with nationalistic/seperatist leanings.

No, I'm really that stupid.

But, that's the gist of it.

ardmacha

The people of Scotland are EU citizens, they should have a continued right to remain in the EU even if they reorganise their government, provided that they continue to conform to EU rules in other respects. They should certainly have an equal right to the rump UK, which is no different from them, only bigger.

Fratton Fred

feargale wrote: »

I do. I do. But one thing can lead to another. So, would Scotland have to apply to join the Commonwealth?.

I wouldn't have thought so, it will continue to be a commonwealth realm.

Fratton Fred

ardmacha wrote: »

The people of Scotland are EU citizens, they should have a continued right to remain in the EU even if they reorganise their government, provided that they continue to conform to EU rules in other respects. They should certainly have an equal right to the rump UK, which is no different from them, only bigger.

Reorganize their government? It's a tad more than that.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

The people of Scotland are EU citizens, they should have a continued right to remain in the EU even if they reorganise their government, provided that they continue to conform to EU rules in other respects. They should certainly have an equal right to the rump UK, which is no different from them, only bigger.

Scottish people will remain EU citizens through their UK citizenship even if a yes vote is passed.

Fratton Fred

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scottish people will remain EU citizens through their UK citizenship even if a yes vote is passed.

Will they?

It's an interesting point actually. An Irish person living in Scotland gets to vote for independence, but will retain their eu citizenship, but a Scot living in Ireland, who can't vote, could lose their eu rights.

Gotta love democracy.

jmayo

Lemming wrote: »

Not so much a threat as captain obvious stating the obvious. As partial to Scotland as I am, on this Westminster are smack on the money. Among all of the rest of wee 'ecs wooly statements, insisting that Scotland can walk away from the union so it can be independent yet still tied with the bank of England completely undermines any desire for independence.

In the past when the euro appeared a much better bet, weren't Scottish independence proponents of a mind to switch to the Euro.
Of course the bank of England would have also learnt from the PIIGS Euro fiasco.

Lemming wrote: »

The words "cake" and,"eat" spring to mind...

AFAIK some proponents of an independent Quebec were of the opinion that they could leave Canada with their debt cancelled.
Of course that did not go down so well with richer provinces like Alberta and Ontario who would be the ones coughing up.

First Up wrote: »

Catalans

There is potential for the breakup of EU member states.
Barroso is playing politics and making sure he doesn't rock the boat and end up getting stern calls from Madrid and Brussels.
If Scotland breaks away and goes straight into EU then it offers hope to the likes of the Catalans and Basques.

It does beg the question what would happen to EQ headquarters and all the institutions of the EU based in Brussels if Belgium split.

I have to admit I would certainly find it a bit weird to find one of our nearest neighbours out in the cold while the likes of Turkey and the Ukraine were being courted as new members.

jmayo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Will they?

It's an interesting point actually. An Irish person living in Scotland gets to vote for independence, but will retain their eu citizenship, but a Scot living in Ireland, who can't vote, could lose their eu rights.

Gotta love democracy.

That sounds like the position of the Faroe Islands, which even though under control of Denmark, are not in EU and Danes living there are not EU citizens.

Iwasfrozen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Will they?

It's an interesting point actually. An Irish person living in Scotland gets to vote for independence, but will retain their eu citizenship, but a Scot living in Ireland, who can't vote, could lose their eu rights.

Gotta love democracy.

No chance will the UK withdraw citizenship from Scottish people. I wouldn't be surprised actually if they extend the right to people born in Scotland for the next twenty years actually.

Iwasfrozen

jmayo wrote: »

It does beg the question what would happen to EQ headquarters and all the institutions of the EU based in Brussels if Belgium split.

It would be interesting to see the EU take over direct control of Brussels like Washington DC in America.

djpbarry

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scottish people will remain EU citizens through their UK citizenship even if a yes vote is passed.

Will they? There's no guarantee of that as far as I'm aware.

First Up

djpbarry wrote: »

Will they? There's no guarantee of that as far as I'm aware.

If Scotland left the UK, Scots would cease to be UK citizens. I'm sure the SNP would want some deal on that (more cake to go with retention of the pound) but if they are so keen on their own nationality, the least they could do is accept the consequences.

Iwasfrozen

djpbarry wrote: »

Will they? There's no guarantee of that as far as I'm aware.

No guarantee but realistically that's what will happen. Ireland is a precedent.