Scottish Independence

djpbarry

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No guarantee but realistically that's what will happen. Ireland is a precedent.

Not really - Ireland gained independence pre-EU.

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No guarantee but realistically that's what will happen. Ireland is a precedent.

I think you need to be careful about using the word "realistically".

Cork boy 55

Is Hadrians wall operational as a defense line , ideal job for the EU battlegroups to secure it in the short term post indo. The roman empire did without them(scotti) and so can the EU

Harry Angstrom

Hasn't Cameron promised a referendum on the UK's EU membership if The Conservatives are returned to power at the next general election? Would be kinda ironic if the good people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland decided to withdraw from the EU in a few years time.....

First Up

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Hasn't Cameron promised a referendum on the UK's EU membership if The Conservatives are returned to power at the next general election? Would be kinda ironic if the good people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland decided to withdraw from the EU in a few years time.....

And an irony that the SNP is using that possibility as an argument for independence, saying that Scotland needs unfettered access to the French, German etc markets. They skip the fact that unfettered access to the English market is considerably more important.
It would be monumentally stupid of the UK to leave the EU. In fact the only withdrawal that would be even more stupid is......

feargale

First Up wrote: »

And an irony that the SNP is using that possibility as an argument for independence, saying that Scotland needs unfettered access to the French, German etc markets. They skip the fact that unfettered access to the English market is considerably more important.
It would be monumentally stupid of the UK to leave the EU. In fact the only withdrawal that would be even more stupid is......

Is Scottish access to the English market more important than English access to the Scottish market?

First Up

feargale wrote: »

Is Scottish access to the English market more important than English access to the Scottish market?

Eh, yes.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

First Up wrote: »

Eh, yes.

Think you better ask all the English business's that do business in Scotland if they feel that way

Iwasfrozen

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Think you better ask all the English business's that do business in Scotland if they feel that way

Why are you looking at it from the prospective of individual businesses rather than the country as a whole like everyone else was?

But even if you do insist in looking at it from the prospective of an individual business consider the fact an English business reliant on trade from Scotland has much more opportunities to redirect their business than a Scottish business reliant on trade from England. For starters the former will still be in the EU.

A Dub in Glasgo

Buckfast Abbey will be displeased

First Up

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Think you better ask all the English business's that do business in Scotland if they feel that way

The English market is 55 million. The Scottish market is 5.5 million - the same same as the West Midlands and a lot more widely dispersed.

feargale

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Buckfast Abbey will be displeased

Worse still, imagine all those lords drinking absinthe instead of Glenfiddich.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why are you looking at it from the prospective of individual businesses rather than the country as a whole like everyone else was?

But even if you do insist in looking at it from the prospective of an individual business consider the fact an English business reliant on trade from Scotland has much more opportunities to redirect their business than a Scottish business reliant on trade from England. For starters the former will still be in the EU.

And you know for a fact Scotland won't and just how long will England be in it if and when Cameron has his referendum.
Its all so simple isn't it. Many companies while being able to redirect there business elsewhere may feel losing out on lucrative contracts is not going to be viable and yes many will feel they can afford it but in todays world economy who knows.

At the end of the day we are both speculating to an extent

Broxi_Bear_Eire

First Up wrote: »

The English market is 55 million. The Scottish market is 5.5 million - the same same as the West Midlands and a lot more widely dispersed.

Yup but many small English companies rely on their Scottish contracts its all swings and roundabouts.
When it comes down to it if Scotland does vote yes then and only then will we see the overall effect

Iwasfrozen

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

And you know for a fact Scotland won't and just how long will England be in it if and when Cameron has his referendum.

Now you're assuming Cameron's referendum on leaving the EU will be successful, even if he has one. A big assumption.

Its all so simple isn't it. Many companies while being able to redirect there business elsewhere may feel losing out on lucrative contracts is not going to be viable and yes many will feel they can afford it but in todays world economy who knows.

Why are you looking at it from the point of view of individual companies? No one ever said England wouldn't suffer from trade barriers between themselves and Scotland, they will, but they will suffer much less proportionally.

Fact is England is much less reliant on Scotland than Scotland is on England.

At the end of the day we are both speculating to an extent

That Scotland will suffer more from trade barriers than England is not speculation.

First Up

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Yup but many small English companies rely on their Scottish contracts its all swings and roundabouts.
When it comes down to it if Scotland does vote yes then and only then will we see the overall effect

That's right. Ten English swings for every Scottish roundabout.

Hotblack Desiato

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is there a consitution in the white paper? There are a number of mandatory laws Scotland would require before entering the EU. Whilst these are fairly straightforward, without them being in place it is impossible to say for certain they could join.

Just like we did, all law in place at independence would remain there unless repealed. So all the legal requirements for EU membership would already be in place.

First Up wrote: »

If Scotland left the UK, Scots would cease to be UK citizens. I'm sure the SNP would want some deal on that (more cake to go with retention of the pound) but if they are so keen on their own nationality, the least they could do is accept the consequences.

People born in what was to become the Republic of Ireland retained an automatic right to British citizenship until 1949.

First Up

ninja900 wrote: »

People born in what was to become the Republic of Ireland retained an automatic right to British citizenship until 1949.

So apart from holding on to the pound, the UK passport and free trade with England whether in or out of the EU, Scotland will be a totally independent country.

I see; very good.

Iwasfrozen

ninja900 wrote: »

Just like we did, all law in place at independence would remain there unless repealed. So all the legal requirements for EU membership would already be in place.

From Scotland's perspective yes, but not from the EU's perspective. As far as their concerned all member nations must be unanimously voted in by the other member states.

There's no debate on this. Barroso has made it very clear.

ninja900 wrote: »

People born in what was to become the Republic of Ireland retained an automatic right to British citizenship until 1949.

Yeah I can see something very similar happening in Scotland.

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From Scotland's perspective yes, but not from the EU's perspective. As far as their concerned all member nations must be unanimously voted in by the other member states.

There's no debate on this. Barroso has made it very clear.



Yeah I can see something very similar happening in Scotland.

So do they want to be independent or not?

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

So do they want to be independent or not?

Whether Britain chooses to allow British current British citizens living in Scotland to remain British citizens after independence is out of Scotland's control.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From Scotland's perspective yes, but not from the EU's perspective. As far as their concerned all member nations must be unanimously voted in by the other member states.

There's no debate on this. Barroso has made it very clear.

Of course there is debate on that point. Barroso is an unelected bureaucrat. The Scottish Government has asked the UK Government to ask the EU for the legal status of Scotland coming out of the union in GB. The UK Government has refused to ask.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Of course there is debate on that point. Barroso is an unelected bureaucrat. The Scottish Government has asked the UK Government to ask the EU for the legal status of Scotland coming out of the union in GB. The UK Government has refused to ask.

Barroso is President of the European commission. The man responsible for the correct interpenetration and enforcement of European treaties and legislation. He's a very good source.

A Dub in Glasgo

and he was very clear to say it was his opinion

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Whether Britain chooses to allow British current British citizens living in Scotland to remain British citizens after independence is out of Scotland's control.

It most certainly is not.
Britain is a geographic entity. They are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland is no longer part of that country, the conferring of citizenship would amount to a territorial claim unless agreed to by the government of a sovereign Scotland.
Either way, it makes a nonsense of "independence"

cmore123

It's fascinating to examine what effect this might have for Ireland. The unionists in the north quite naturally feel a lot more in common with the Scots, generally speaking.

Will a separate Scotland make them become more belligerent locally, as their fears about the security of the UK are given more fuel? Will they try to join the new Scotland and leave the rest of the UK, both for cultural ties and to distance themselves further - as they might see it - from the rest of Ireland? Might they find themselves examining their own views in new ways?

First Up

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

and he was very clear to say it was his opinion

Which I'm sure he plucked out of thin air.

Harry Angstrom

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Barroso is President of the European commission. The man responsible for the correct interpenetration and enforcement of European treaties and legislation. He's a very good source.

Barroso is a bureaucrat, first and foremost. Scotland won't be like your average Eastern European country applying for EU membership. They're already members of the EU. If Scotland gains its independence, I don't see why their application to renew its membership of the EU couldn't be fast-tracked. It's not like Turkey FFS.

A Dub in Glasgo

First Up wrote: »

Which I'm sure he plucked out of thin air.

I'm sure you are right

First Up

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I'm sure you are right

Hold on to that dream.