Scottish Independence

bear1

This whole independence story is really interesting.
I'm somewhat sceptical that the yes vote will win but i wonder what would then happen to the rest of the UK if Scotland actually did leave.
NI would now be surrounded by independent states so I imagine the UI debate would pop up.
Which would leave Wales and England. Extremely interesting.
I do get the feeling though that London and now Brussels are bullying Scotland into the no vote to retain control of an important part of the UK and Brussels so that Madrid can stay happy.

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

It most certainly is not.
Britain is a geographic entity. They are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland is no longer part of that country, the conferring of citizenship would amount to a territorial claim unless agreed to by the government of a sovereign Scotland.
Either way, it makes a nonsense of "independence"

Whether Britain is a geographic entity is entirely irrelevant to the fact Britain can extend citizenship to people born in Scottish territory. Irish people were entitled to British citizenship prior to the 1949.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

and he was very clear to say it was his opinion

I would hold the opinion of the President of the Commission as a very good indication. who do you think knows more about EU legislation, Salmond or the man charged with its enforcement?

Iwasfrozen

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Barroso is a bureaucrat, first and foremost. Scotland won't be like your average Eastern European country applying for EU membership. They're already members of the EU. If Scotland gains its independence, I don't see why their application to renew its membership of the EU couldn't be fast-tracked. It's not like Turkey FFS.

You're right, Scotland isn't Turkey. Turkey has along with Great Britain the most powerful armed forces in Europe and the most powerful navy in the Mediterranean. From a geopolitical point of view Turkey also holds the key to unfettered access to the Middle East and Caspian Sea.

It won't be fast-tracked because requires unanimous permission of all European countries to enter and Spain has declared it won't give that permission.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ninja edit, original really shows what you think of Scotland. Why do you want them to stay in the union?

---End Quote---
You're right, Scotland's much poorer.

COYW

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

If Scotland gains its independence, I don't see why their application to renew its membership of the EU couldn't be fast-tracked. It's not like Turkey FFS.

I don't get why people are saying this. There is no fast tracking. All 28 member states have to agree on the entry for a new member state. That is the requirement. We all know that all 28 member states will not agree to an independent Scotland joining the EU.

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Whether Britain is a geographic entity is entirely irrelevant to the fact Britain can extend citizenship to people born in Scottish territory. Irish people were entitled to British citizenship prior to the 1949.


I would hold the opinion of the President of the Commission as a very good indication. who do you think knows more about EU legislation, Salmond or the man charged with its enforcement?

I suggest you read up on the issue of post 1922 Ireland and British citizenship before assuming it is a precedent for an independent Scotland - or deciding what is or isn't in the control of a Scottish government.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Ninja edit, original really shows what you think of Scotland. Why do you want them to stay in the union?

---End Quote---
You're right, Scotland's much poorer.

It's not a matter of what I think of Scotland. Which Union are you talking about?

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

I suggest you read up on the issue of post 1922 Ireland and British citizenship before assuming it is a precedent for an independent Scotland - or deciding what is or isn't in the control of a Scottish government.

I've done plenty of reading on that issue, I doubt a few hours extra will be prophetic but you seem to know better so please explain.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not a matter of what I think of Scotland. Which Union are you talking about?

This one

Harry Angstrom

COYW wrote: »

I don't get why people are saying this. There is no fast tracking. All 28 member states have to agree on the entry for a new member state. That is the requirement. We all know that all 28 member states will not agree to an independent Scotland joining the EU.

Why do you think that? I can't see why too many EU member states would want to veto Scotland's application for EU membership, particularly considering Scotland will have its North Sea oil fields; and do you really think that Westminster would be petty enough to veto Scotland if the rest of the EU member states are in favour of Scotland's application for membership??

househero

Scotlands been screwed by England for so long, now the oil and gas have all but been stolen by England, they get the 'chance' to vote for their independence???

Scotland could have been rich if it kept its oil.

England wouldn't have been so great without Macadam roads, the bicycle, pnumatic tyre, tubular steel, overhead cam petrol engines (1928!) condensing steam engines, the passenger steam boat, iron hulls, cast steel, wire rope, hot blast ovens, threshing machines, the BBC, universal standard time, the telephone, TV, printers.

All Scottish inventions and discoveries. ALL claimed by the 'UK' and Great Britain!

Scotland has had its place in history stolen along with its mineral riches. Its about time they took control of their destiny. After all, the UK has been bankrupt since the 2nd world war.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This one

Ah that one. Why ask me why I want Scotland to stay in the Union? I don't believe I've expressed an opinion on the matter.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ah that one. Why ask me why I want Scotland to stay in the Union? I don't believe I've expressed an opinion on the matter.

You are currently ranked number 2 for most posts in this thread. Post 11 provides an opinion

Harry Angstrom

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're right, Scotland isn't Turkey. Turkey has along with Great Britain the most powerful armed forces in Europe and the most powerful navy in the Mediterranean. From a geopolitical point of view Turkey also holds the key to unfettered access to the Middle East and Caspian Sea.

Yeah, and Turkey also has an appalling record of human rights violations. Somehow I don't think Scotland will ever be high on the list of Amnesty International tables for human rights abuses.....

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/turkey-accused-gross-human-rights-violations-gezi-park-protests-2013-10-02

COYW

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Why do you think that? I can't see why too many EU member states would want to veto Scotland's application for EU membership, particularly considering Scotland will have its North Sea oil fields; and do you really think that Westminster would be petty enough to veto Scotland if the rest of the EU member states are in favour of Scotland's application for membership??

Most will have absolutely no problem with them joining, I agree but the likes of Spain is not going to vote for Scotland to join the EU. It would open up a can of worms for them nationally. They have said that they won't vote for Scotland to join the EU. For Scotland to become a member, all 28 members must say 'Yes' to them. That is not going to happen and that is exactly what Barroso was saying.

Harry Angstrom

COYW wrote: »

Most will have absolutely no problem with them joining, I agree but the likes of Spain is not going to vote for Scotland to join the EU. It would open up a can of worms for them nationally. They have said that they won't vote for Scotland to join the EU. For Scotland to become a member, all 28 members must say 'Yes' to them. That is not going to happen and that is exactly what Barroso was saying.

It's quite likely that the current mickey mouse Spanish Prime Minister will be out of office by the time an independent Scotland applies for EU membership (providing the referendum is passed).

Fratton Fred

househero wrote: »

Scotlands been screwed by England for so long, now the oil and gas have all but been stolen by England, they get the 'chance' to vote for their independence???

Scotland could have been rich if it kept its oil.

England wouldn't have been so great without Macadam roads, the bicycle, pnumatic tyre, tubular steel, overhead cam petrol engines (1928!) condensing steam engines, the passenger steam boat, iron hulls, cast steel, wire rope, hot blast ovens, threshing machines, the BBC, universal standard time, the telephone, TV, printers.

All Scottish inventions and discoveries. ALL claimed by the 'UK' and Great Britain!

Scotland has had its place in history stolen along with its mineral riches. Its about time they took control of their destiny. After all, the UK has been bankrupt since the 2nd world war.

You might want to read up on the Darien Scheme, just for a start.

Oh, you might also have a quick read up on RBS and how they managed to **** up the world's banking system.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are currently ranked number 2 for most posts in this thread. Post 11 provides an opinion

2011? Wow I had forgotten about that. Good thing I have you to keep track of things.

Hotblack Desiato

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From Scotland's perspective yes, but not from the EU's perspective. As far as their concerned all member nations must be unanimously voted in by the other member states.

Yes but that was not what Fred was referring to - the requirement for an accession state to align its laws with EU law before it can enter. Scotland already has all of the required law in place.

First Up wrote: »

So apart from holding on to the pound, the UK passport and free trade with England whether in or out of the EU, Scotland will be a totally independent country.

I see; very good.

Ireland post-1922:

Head of state: King of the United Kingdom (until 1938 / 1948 depending on your POV)
Currency : Pound Sterling (until 1979) Interest rates set by the Bank of England.
Citizenship : British citizenship was available by right to any Irish-born person until 1949.
Common Travel Area with the UK : Still in place. Irish citizens are not regarded as 'foreign' for the purposes of UK residency law

If you don't regard what is proposed for Scotland as independence, then clearly Ireland wasn't independent either, in 1923. So at what point would you agree that Ireland became independent?

Scofflaw

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

It's quite likely that the current mickey mouse Spanish Prime Minister will be out of office by the time an independent Scotland applies for EU membership (providing the referendum is passed).

It's unlikely that a future Spanish PM will feel much differently on the subject of encouraging Catalonian independence, though. And there are other countries which would have similar views because of similar problems.

cordially,
Scofflaw

First Up

ninja900 wrote: »

Yes but that was not what Fred was referring to - the requirement for an accession state to align its laws with EU law before it can enter. Scotland already has all of the required law in place.



Ireland post-1922:

Head of state: King of the United Kingdom (until 1938 / 1948 depending on your POV)
Currency : Pound Sterling (until 1979) Interest rates set by the Bank of England.
Citizenship : British citizenship was available by right to any Irish-born person until 1949.
Common Travel Area with the UK : Still in place. Irish citizens are not regarded as 'foreign' for the purposes of UK residency law

If you don't regard what is proposed for Scotland as independence, then clearly Ireland wasn't independent either, in 1923. So at what point would you agree that Ireland became independent?

The Irish/British nationality question was considerably more complicated than that, with major differences in how it was construed under Irish Nationality law and British Nationality law. There was also the highly sensitive and technical matter of Northern Ireland over which the Free State and later Republic exerted a territorial claim and a third of whose citizens claimed another allegiance.

The issue under discussion here is to what extent Scotland's (and Scots') status in the EU can be dictated by Scotland's eventual relations with England. Ireland 1922-1937, 1937-1949 and since carries no precedent for that.

Hotblack Desiato

That's just completely dodging the issue tbh.

First Up

ninja900 wrote: »

That's just completely dodging the issue tbh.

Dodging what issue???

jmayo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're right, Scotland isn't Turkey. Turkey has along with Great Britain the most powerful armed forces in Europe and the most powerful navy in the Mediterranean. From a geopolitical point of view Turkey also holds the key to unfettered access to the Middle East and Caspian Sea.

Why does the size of Turkey's military always come up when their proposed membership of the EU is mentioned.
Are we just looking to expand the EU's military capability ?
Having unfetted access to a basket case of an area might not be all that it is cracked up to be.
I suppose it might make it easier for all the refugees from the continous wars to enter the EU. :rolleyes:

And you might want to get another map.
Turkey has to go through Georgia, Armenia, Russia, Azerbaijan and/or Iran to get to the Caspian Sea.

And if you are talking about the Black Sea, have you forgotten about Bulgaria
and Romania ?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It won't be fast-tracked because requires unanimous permission of all European countries to enter and Spain has declared it won't give that permission.

There is no way in hell a Spanish government would vote for free independent Scotland to easily join EU.
And there are a few other countries like Italy, France that would probably vote similarly.

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Why do you think that? I can't see why too many EU member states would want to veto Scotland's application for EU membership, particularly considering Scotland will have its North Sea oil fields; and do you really think that Westminster would be petty enough to veto Scotland if the rest of the EU member states are in favour of Scotland's application for membership??

Ehh Spain, Italy for starters.
Both have breakaway contenders who wouldn't need more inducements.

househero wrote: »

Scotlands been screwed by England for so long, now the oil and gas have all but been stolen by England, they get the 'chance' to vote for their independence???

Scotland could have been rich if it kept its oil.

England wouldn't have been so great without Macadam roads, the bicycle, pnumatic tyre, tubular steel, overhead cam petrol engines (1928!) condensing steam engines, the passenger steam boat, iron hulls, cast steel, wire rope, hot blast ovens, threshing machines, the BBC, universal standard time, the telephone, TV, printers.

All Scottish inventions and discoveries. ALL claimed by the 'UK' and Great Britain!

Scotland has had its place in history stolen along with its mineral riches. Its about time they took control of their destiny. After all, the UK has been bankrupt since the 2nd world war.

Sorry to take issue with you, but the Scot who invented the telephone didn't.
He just nicked the idea from some poor Italian whose patent had run out.
And I am not sure about the invention of printers either ?

And you forgot the battered mars bar and tikka masala.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You might want to read up on the Darien Scheme, just for a start.

Oh, you might also have a quick read up on RBS and how they managed to **** up the world's banking system.

Ah come on.
There are a lot of other banks out there who can take credit for that.
Remember fianna fails favourite, those lehman boys.
And besides how much of RBS is now Scottish owned ?

Godge

jmayo wrote: »

There is no way in hell a Spanish government would vote for free independent Scotland to easily join EU.
And there are a few other countries like Italy, France that would probably vote similarly.



Ehh Spain, Italy for starters.
Both have breakaway contenders who wouldn't need more inducements.

Other than Spain, the Belgians would have the strongest problems because of the Flemish/Walloon issue

The Germans would share French concerns about Alsace-Lorraine before you even consider the East and some people hankering back to the good old days.

Cannot seek the Greeks giving their northern province of Macedonia any encouragement to join the other Macedonia.

As you say the spanish have the Basques and Catalans to worry about.

On a less serious note, we could even have to start worrying about the People's Republic of Cork:D:D:D

First Up

Godge wrote: »

Other than Spain, the Belgians would have the strongest problems because of the Flemish/Walloon issue

The Germans would share French concerns about Alsace-Lorraine before you even consider the East and some people hankering back to the good old days.

Cannot seek the Greeks giving their northern province of Macedonia any encouragement to join the other Macedonia.

As you say the spanish have the Basques and Catalans to worry about.

On a less serious note, we could even have to start worrying about the People's Republic of Cork:D:D:D

There is also a potential minefield among various candidate and aspiring EU candidate countries in the Balkans and Caucasus and elsewhere in Central/Eastern Europe.

Bosnia & Herzegovina has potentially three entities that could each claim the right to secede. We already have Kosovo which set an extremely dangerous precedent and which could yet come back to haunt negotiations with Serbia. Macedonia is at loggerheads with Greece; Moldova has an independent, Ukrainian speaking region that wants nothing to do with the Romanian speaking rest of the country; Georgia has two breakaway regions, each recognised by Russia; Armenia and Azerbaijan are still fighting over Nagorno Karabakh and as we can see on our TV screens, Ukraine is in danger of splitting into western and Russian oriented factions.

Those who blithely expect an independent Scotland to be fast-tracked, or to ride in on the coat-tails of its former status as part of the UK need to understand that all of these regions, as well as their current governments will be watching like a hawk and will seize on whatever decisions are taken in order to take any legal or political advantage they can.

Barroso only hinted at the half of it.

MakeMyFriend

househero wrote: »

Scotlands been screwed by England for so long, now the oil and gas have all but been stolen by England, they get the 'chance' to vote for their independence???

Scotland could have been rich if it kept its oil.

England wouldn't have been so great without Macadam roads, the bicycle, pnumatic tyre, tubular steel, overhead cam petrol engines (1928!) condensing steam engines, the passenger steam boat, iron hulls, cast steel, wire rope, hot blast ovens, threshing machines, the BBC, universal standard time, the telephone, TV, printers.

All Scottish inventions and discoveries. ALL claimed by the 'UK' and Great Britain!

Scotland has had its place in history stolen along with its mineral riches. Its about time they took control of their destiny. After all, the UK has been bankrupt since the 2nd world war.

That really was a bunch of nationalistic guff. None of these things you have listed are "Scottish" inventions (because that doesn't mean anything), they're inventions, by individual people, their nationality is completely irrelevant. The culture they were brought up maybe influenced them, but culture is not bound to nationality, especially nowadays. Stop using other peoples' achievements as a way to pointlessly divide people into separate groups based on nothing.

First Up

If the pro independence arguments get any woollier, the workers at the mills of Hawick and Galashiels will be redundant.

dlouth15

Godge wrote: »

Other than Spain, the Belgians would have the strongest problems because of the Flemish/Walloon issue

The Germans would share French concerns about Alsace-Lorraine before you even consider the East and some people hankering back to the good old days.

Cannot seek the Greeks giving their northern province of Macedonia any encouragement to join the other Macedonia.

As you say the spanish have the Basques and Catalans to worry about.

On a less serious note, we could even have to start worrying about the People's Republic of Cork:D:D:D

I would expect some of these countries to pipe up prior to the referendum in September in an attempt to influence the vote, but I think it's important to remember that post referendum, should the Scots vote yes, these countries will be required under EU law to negotiate Scotland's entry in good faith. Arguing that an already independent Scotland can't join because of the Basques or the Walloons or what have you won't cut it. It is, after all, not Scotland's fault that some of these countries have problems with separatist movements.

First Up

dlouth15 wrote: »

I would expect some of these countries to pipe up prior to the referendum in September in an attempt to influence the vote, but I think it's important to remember that post referendum, should the Scots vote yes, these countries will be required under EU law to negotiate Scotland's entry in good faith. Arguing that an already independent Scotland can't join because of the Basques or the Walloons or what have you won't cut it. It is, after all, not Scotland's fault that some of these countries have problems with separatist movements.

They don't have to argue it, nor does their argument have to "cut it". Each member has the power of veto if it believes admitting a candidate country would damage it's interests. Spain or Belgium could well feel that admitting Scotland would cause them problems and they would be entitled to use their veto in that case.