Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Scottish Independence
Options
Comments
-
Sure Salmond may be wrong on a number of things but Spain have publicly distanced themselves from Barosso's statements.
Spain are simply playing state politics by not showing their real hand. We'll see that when push comes to shove; which brings me on to ...But sometimes, unlike the game of Battleships, there are consequences for trying to use it. How is the country using it going to look? How is the EU going to look if Scotland is excluded not due to any fault of its own but rather due to the internal failures of certain member states. How is that constructively engaging with an aspirant EU member that has already implemented and is working with most EU legislation to date? And it has already been authoritatively suggested that EU countries have an obligation to engage constructively.
That's an awful lot of rhetoric about the EU and not an awful lot about the consequences for Scotland. But lets play this game for a moment ...
The EU wont look bad at all. It'll be those member states that have blocked accession. The same way that Scotland could if it were a member. A lot of people seem to be making a great deal of noise about how Scotland already has a lot of EU legislation in place therefore shure why can't we be givin' it a bit o'de ault fheesttrack to be shure?! The same way that if Switzerland turned around tomorrow and applied for membership (they wont), they'd have to go through the same process despite having a great deal of compliance with EU law already.
As for those member states that might carry out a veto; they would make negotation as awkward, drawn out, and painful as possible to make matters fail before it got to veto. But if they are that way inclined and convinced having failed to do the above, they will use the veto as a last resort. Nation states act in their own best interests. Sometimes those interests coincide or have benign effects elsewhere, but the bottom line is self-interest. The same self-interest that Salmond has tried to use in threatening both the resf of the UK, the EU, and NATO already vis-a-vis membership or continued access to existing processes/facilities to try and get his way. If he had the power of veto he would have unquestionably used it by now, whatever anyone else thinks be damned.
I'm curious; who is this voice of authority of which you speak?0 -
Spain are simply playing state politics by not showing their real hand. We'll see that when push comes to shove; which brings me on to ...
That's an awful lot of rhetoric about the EU and not an awful lot about the consequences for Scotland. But lets play this game for a moment ...
The EU wont look bad at all. It'll be those member states that have blocked accession. The same way that Scotland could if it were a member. A lot of people seem to be making a great deal of noise about how Scotland already has a lot of EU legislation in place therefore shure why can't we be givin' it a bit o'de ault fheesttrack to be shure?! The same way that if Switzerland turned around tomorrow and applied for membership (they wont), they'd have to go through the same process despite having a great deal of compliance with EU law already.
Scotland and its courts will have had decades of dealing with EU legislation. I think this is probably unique for any aspirant country.As for those member states that might carry out a veto; they would make negotation as awkward, drawn out, and painful as possible to make matters fail before it got to veto.But if they are that way inclined and convinced having failed to do the above, they will use the veto as a last resort. Nation states act in their own best interests. Sometimes those interests coincide or have benign effects elsewhere, but the bottom line is self-interest.
Yes it is true that breakaway nationalists will gain confidence as a result of a yes vote but Spain blocking Scotland from EU entry is not going to change that. If Spain had a legitimate reason for doing so (for example human rights) then that would be one thing but Spain blocking for purely internal political reasons if anything would backfire on them.I'm curious; who is this voice of authority of which you speak?0 -
You are right that we'll see. I would have to see some sort of comparison of compliance with EU law and Swiss law in order to agree with this. They certainly have various free trade agreements in place and this would have involved legislation on their part, but whether it is comparable to the sort of compliance Scotland will have upon independence is another thing.
The Swiss, as part of their free trade agreements, have to comply with EU legislation. An argument that the British anti-EU lobby seem to wilfully ignore in suggesting that Britain can leave the EU but still do free-trade without all the red tape.
I am not sure of any mention of Scotland within the framework of the EU; only Great Britain. So why Salmond seems to think that Scotland can just waltz in is another matter. What about representation? EU offices? etc. etc. None of that exists, and whilst the logistics of it are not a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome; the EU political body representative is another matter. It cannot just be reshaped on the fly to suit any given accession state desire to integrate on their timeframe, not anybody else's.And what do you think the effect this might have on relations within Europe, most of whom don't want to spend time in protracted and pointless negotiations?
Well, that's kind of the point of dragging out negotiations ... everyone else gets fed up and then gives up. And then lo and behold, negotiations either stalemate or collapse. And one set of actors have gotten exactly what they wanted.Whilst I agree that nation's act in their own interests, I think you are defining the interest of the Spanish too narrowly in this regard. Sure in an ideal world from their perspective it would be better not to have any instances of separation in another European country but to believe that they can gain significantly after this has happened by blocking entry of what will be regarded by others as a perfectly legitimate country is another thing entirely.
I shall repeat. Nation states generally act in their self-interest. If that includes veto'ing an accession application so be it. Also, why do you think it's just the Spanish that might have issue?Yes it is true that breakaway nationalists will gain confidence as a result of a yes vote but Spain blocking Scotland from EU entry is not going to change that. If Spain had a legitimate reason for doing so (for example human rights) then that would be one thing but Spain blocking for purely internal political reasons if anything would backfire on them.
Spain (or anyone else) blocking Scotland sets precedent. And that is a very, very important point to note. On top of that, how do you think a veto would backfire on Spain considering that all member states have the power of veto?It is an opinion given by Sir David Edward a former judge with Court of Justice of the European Union, a body with the responsibility of interpreting EU law.
Is that his legal opinion? Or his opinion? And before you rush to respond to that; there is a very significant difference between the two.0 -
You are right that we'll see. I would have to see some sort of comparison of compliance with EU law and Swiss law in order to agree with this. They certainly have various free trade agreements in place and this would have involved legislation on their part, but whether it is comparable to the sort of compliance Scotland will have upon independence is another thing.
Scotland and its courts will have had decades of dealing with EU legislation. I think this is probably unique for any aspirant country.
And what do you think the effect this might have on relations within Europe, most of whom don't want to spend time in protracted and pointless negotiations? Whilst I agree that nation's act in their own interests, I think you are defining the interest of the Spanish too narrowly in this regard. Sure in an ideal world from their perspective it would be better not to have any instances of separation in another European country but to believe that they can gain significantly after this has happened by blocking entry of what will be regarded by others as a perfectly legitimate country is another thing entirely.
Yes it is true that breakaway nationalists will gain confidence as a result of a yes vote but Spain blocking Scotland from EU entry is not going to change that. If Spain had a legitimate reason for doing so (for example human rights) then that would be one thing but Spain blocking for purely internal political reasons if anything would backfire on them.
It is an opinion given by Sir David Edward a former judge with Court of Justice of the European Union, a body with the responsibility of interpreting EU law.
You continue to misunderstand the implications. You are viewing it entirely from the perspective of the Scottish situation, whereas the member states and the EU must consider the wider political and legal consequences.
There is nothing in EU legislation to provide for an application from a country that previously formed part of a member state. Scotland's application will be treated exactly the same way as any other because there is simply no other way to do it. Whatever happens with a Scottish application would form the legal basis and precedent for applications from potentially any number of seccessions, either from current or possible future members. The EU would have to legislate for Scotland in a way that covers every conceivable eventuality. Good news for lawyers but very bad news for everyone else.
It isn't about keeping Scotland out per se. It's about what letting Scotland in would open the door to.0 -
The Swiss, as part of their free trade agreements, have to comply with EU legislation. An argument that the British anti-EU lobby seem to wilfully ignore in suggesting that Britain can leave the EU but still do free-trade without all the red tape.I am not sure of any mention of Scotland within the framework of the EU; only Great Britain. So why Salmond seems to think that Scotland can just waltz in is another matter. What about representation? EU offices? etc. etc. None of that exists, and whilst the logistics of it are not a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome; the EU political body representative is another matter. It cannot just be reshaped on the fly to suit any given accession state desire to integrate on their timeframe, not anybody else's.
As for the timescale, it is also in the interests of the EU to conclude these as quickly as possible to minimise disruption. To have Scotland revert to an independent state and it's citizens abroad lose their rights and EU citizens in Scotland lose theirs would be highly disruptive, embarrassing and unnecessary. Fishing rights and a number of other issues have also been mentioned. There are business relationships between Scotland and member states that would be affected.
As an aside, I think we need to get it out of our heads that there's a general dislike of the idea of Scotland joining the EU. This seems to be an underlying theme here. Even Barroso has not claimed this. I have not seen any evidence for it.Well, that's kind of the point of dragging out negotiations ... everyone else gets fed up and then gives up. And then lo and behold, negotiations either stalemate or collapse. And one set of actors have gotten exactly what they wanted.I shall repeat. Nation states generally act in their self-interest. If that includes veto'ing an accession application so be it. Also, why do you think it's just the Spanish that might have issue?Spain (or anyone else) blocking Scotland sets precedent. And that is a very, very important point to note. On top of that, how do you think a veto would backfire on Spain considering that all member states have the power of veto?Is that his legal opinion? Or his opinion? And before you rush to respond to that; there is a very significant difference between the two.0 -
Advertisement
-
It would set an unfortunate precedent, in my opinion. It would also show that Spain is not always interest in reasonable discussion to resolve their differences. Continuity and lack of disruption and not creating unfortunate precedents will be what the other member states will be trying to achieve and I think Spain, although they have separatist issues, will also be operating along these lines.
.
Spain has been given as one example. They will be joined by many others. Belgium, France, Italy, Greece, Ireland, UK, Romania, Greece, Germany, Poland, will all have problems with Scottish accession for various reasons.
Can you give me one example of any EU nation that would welcome Scottish accession?
Can you give me any good reason why the EU would want Scotland, any more than they want Iceland?0 -
Spain has been given as one example. They will be joined by many others. Belgium, France, Italy, Greece, Ireland, UK, Romania, Greece, Germany, Poland, will all have problems with Scottish accession for various reasons.
Can you give me one example of any EU nation that would welcome Scottish accession?Can you give me any good reason why the EU would want Scotland, any more than they want Iceland?0 -
Spain has been given as one example. They will be joined by many others. Belgium, France, Italy, Greece, Ireland, UK, Romania, Greece, Germany, Poland, will all have problems with Scottish accession for various reasons.
Can you give me one example of any EU nation that would welcome Scottish accession?
Can you give me any good reason why the EU would want Scotland, any more than they want Iceland?
The UK does little to endear itself to the rest of the EU at the best of times. The Scottish nonsense is seen as a self indulgent family tiff that threatens all sorts of problems for people with a lot more important things to worry about.
If they think the rest of Europe gives a rats about their insecurities over cultural identity,.or share of oil revenues or anything else they are deluding themselves.0 -
Christ almighty, if the EU want to be spiteful and deny that Scotland is already part of it or deny entry if they feel they are not, well Scotland can live outside of the EU then. A lot of people here sound resentful that the Scots have a vote on independence0
-
Can you give me one example of any EU nation that would welcome Scottish accession?
I don't see why the likes of Denmark, which hasn't joined the Euro etc, should not welcome another country of similar size which also wishes to join the EU.
If the Scottish people wish to reorganise their governmental arrangements in a democratic way, while continuing to respect the EU regulations, the EU loses all credibility if it tries to throw them out or makes it difficult for them.0 -
Advertisement
-
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »Christ almighty, if the EU want to be spiteful and deny that Scotland is already part of it or deny entry if they feel they are not, well Scotland can live outside of the EU then. A lot of people here sound resentful that the Scots have a vote on independence
Really don't care what the Scots do, just trying to add reality to what will happen afterwards.0 -
scotty_irish wrote: »i live in scotland, have a lot of hardcore SNP friends and even they aren't pushing for independence. back when there was lots of oil it would've made economic sense - scotland doesn't have a massive amount of industry - methinks a serious decline in living standards is what independence will translate to. also, not a chance of there being a referendum in the next few years, let alex salmond sprout all the BS he wants - i'll eat my socks if there is - you can hold me to this.0
-
-
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »Christ almighty, if the EU want to be spiteful and deny that Scotland is already part of it or deny entry if they feel they are not, well Scotland can live outside of the EU then. A lot of people here sound resentful that the Scots have a vote on independence
The Scots can vote as often as they like about whatever they like. They would just be well advised to properly consider the consequences. Giving England the two fingers might make some feel good but it isn't a strategy for nation building.
As far as much of Europe is concerned, if Scotland wants to throw it's toys out of it's comfortable pram, it can bloody well pick them up itself.
The message is "take your argument outside boys, we have enough to do without cleaning your blood off our carpet."0 -
Sheldons Brain wrote: »I don't see why the likes of Denmark, which hasn't joined the Euro etc, should not welcome another country of similar size which also wishes to join the EU.
If the Scottish people wish to reorganise their governmental arrangements in a democratic way, while continuing to respect the EU regulations, the EU loses all credibility if it tries to throw them out or makes it difficult for them.
Becoming a different country is somewhat more than "re-organising their governmental arrangements." The EU won't be throwing them out, they will be taking themselves out.
The EU won't be making it any more difficult for them to get in than it will for any other applicant. But it won't be making it any easier either.
But that's just the EU (as in the Commission). The 28 member states will each make up their own mind.0 -
Well as a gamer I get to talk to lots of people around the world and with that I do bump into the few scotish people.
I have yet to meet one that is 100% for it.
So far it was either, do not want to leave or not sure what will happen if they do.
My answer was... "well you guys will sure no what real corruption is if you do leave"
Not much has changed that answer, look at what our own parties have done to our country.
We are basically getting our own oil stolen off us and all being sponsored and backed by the EU.
Also all the laws brought in by the EU to make that last few years "legal".0 -
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »Could have fooled me
you see, I really don't. I have only posted on this thread because it was full of ridiculous assertions that leaving the UK would make no difference to EU membership.
As someone who knows a little about how the EU works and a neutral on the independence referendum, I was just pointing out how naive and silly the belief that nothing would change with regards to the EU.
The UK is a member of the EU. Let us keep it simple.
Leaving the UK = Leaving the EU
Joining the EU (or rejoining) is not a simple process compared to 40 years ago.
A number of member states would have legitimate concerns based around self-interest to lead them to resist Scottish re-entry.
This wouldn't necessarily manifest itself in vetos but in making negotiations difficult.
For example, it wouldn't be beyond Spain to insist on a renegotiation in its favour of certain fishing rights deals around these islands in order to permit Scottish re-entry.0 -
For example, it wouldn't be beyond Spain to insist on a renegotiation in its favour of certain fishing rights deals around these islands in order to permit Scottish re-entry.
Scotland should get 10% of Gibraltar and they could give this to Spain.0 -
-
Well as a gamer I get to talk to lots of people around the world and with that I do bump into the few scotish people.
I have yet to meet one that is 100% for it.
So far it was either, do not want to leave or not sure what will happen if they do.
My answer was... "well you guys will sure no what real corruption is if you do leave"
Not much has changed that answer, look at what our own parties have done to our country.
We are basically getting our own oil stolen off us and all being sponsored and backed by the EU.
Also all the laws brought in by the EU to make that last few years "legal".
What supposed EU laws are these, and what exactly are they supposed to do? Are you referring to the obligation to hold strategic reserves of oil and gas?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Advertisement
-
Once the "crisis" kicked in there was new laws passed with in the EU.
The exact names of these laws I don't know and tbh don't really want to either.
However if they did not bring in these new "laws" then a lot of the illegal death that was not ours.
Could not be passed on to us and thus things had to change.
Was brought in during the whole entire "need to monitor funs" approach which EU still don't.
Would have been nice to bring in laws that made those who are dealing with EU funds, responsible under EU court.
But that would only bring in some more justice.
During a time were making illegal unguaranteed loans from England/Netherlands and other main EU states a top priority.0 -
Once the "crisis" kicked in there was new laws passed with in the EU.
The exact names of these laws I don't know and tbh don't really want to either.
However if they did not bring in these new "laws" then a lot of the illegal death that was not ours.
Could not be passed on to us and thus things had to change.
Was brought in during the whole entire "need to monitor funs" approach which EU still don't.
Would have been nice to bring in laws that made those who are dealing with EU funds, responsible under EU court.
But that would only bring in some more justice.
During a time were making illegal unguaranteed loans from England/Netherlands and other main EU states a top priority.0 -
this thread is about scotland and really if you have no idea what im talking about then you might not get the information your looking for.
google european crisis brings in new laws
quick list of new laws
very long read but lots of info, covers way more then just the crisis
During this time in Europe, which a lot of people don't know is that there was a really high chance of a banking systems being created that was above ALL laws within Europe.
My point is scotland will really know what corruption is, because a lot of ours is backed by the European Union as it created loopholes for them to go play with.0 -
this thread is about scotland and really if you have no idea what im talking about then you might not get the information your looking for.
google european crisis brings in new laws
quick list of new laws
very long read but lots of info, covers way more then just the crisis
During this time in Europe, which a lot of people don't know is that there was a really high chance of a banking systems being created that was above ALL laws within Europe.
My point is scotland will really know what corruption is, because a lot of ours is backed by the European Union as it created loopholes for them to go play with.
Nope, sorry, not good enough. If you have a point to make, then make it. Vague references and allegations and pointing to websites mean noting.0 -
says you, I'm sorry for not "holding hands" here.
Do not believe I'm hear to make things easier on you.
If its not good enough, try using google your self.
Scotland will know what real corruption is like.
We have one of the worse oil deals in the world and all backed by european union.0 -
says you, I'm sorry for not "holding hands" here.
Do not believe I'm hear to make things easier on you.
If its not good enough, try using google your self.
Scotland will know what real corruption is like.
We have one of the worse oil deals in the world and all backed by european union.
If you make a claim or accusation here and you want people to take what you say seriously instead of just soapbox. Then you have to be able to back up and support your claims with facts and evidence when challenged. Pointing people to Google, especially when you don't even know the name of these supposed laws is simply not sufficient.0 -
Tbh I'm guna stop after this but you guys are wrong.
I'm not posting this here for you.
If you don't see things like me that is fine, just short and sweet to those who do.
Not creating spoapbox just pointing things out.
Most things people call facts I do not, vice a versa..0 -
-
that is also a good point, not sure how much different dealings the would get.
Since scotland is just a part of an island, according the google its 5mil in population so its not economic power house at all.
Even with Ireland and oil deal, we do get a lot of funds of the EU (even with out the crisis).
For all of my life (30) Ive seen plenty of "projects" paid for by the EU.
I would dare say that scotland would get even less "support", which might not be such a bad thing :P0 -
Advertisement
-
This is a good point but I think there's a danger of assuming that Scotland would be dealing with the EU in the same way as Ireland.
No it is not a "good point", it is inane drivel as the EU has nothing whatsoever to do with oil deals concluded by the individual member states of the EU (so long as those deals don't directly contravene EU law).0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement