Scottish Independence

shadowninty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They are less popular than the euro sceptic Sinn Fein to be honest. Could we then claim that Ireland wants out of the EU, or only if membership meant abortions and conscription to an eu army.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/EU_membership_out_daily_express_poll-2467

^Theres some statistics not from a tabloid or w/e

/Off-Topic

Fratton Fred

shadowninty wrote: »

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/EU_membership_out_daily_express_poll-2467

^Theres some statistics not from a tabloid or w/e

/Off-Topic

Yes, you are right, there are some statistics.

\talking to Anti English troll.

Iwasfrozen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They are less popular than the euro sceptic Sinn Fein to be honest. Could we then claim that Ireland wants out of the EU, or only if membership meant abortions and conscription to an eu army.

No, but the Tories don't have much grá for Europe while Fine Geal do.

Fratton Fred

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, but the Tories don't have much grá for Europe while Fine Geal do.

I think the Toriies are split to an extent. They can see the importance of being in it, but aren't all that keen on the amount of cash forked out to be a member. here is a real perception that a lot of money comes out of British tax payers and into the pocket of French farmers.

shadowninty

Its food production subsidies or pricier food.
Consumers don't want the latter...

Fratton Fred

shadowninty wrote: »

Its food production subsidies or pricier food.
Consumers don't want the latter...

the CAP has very little to do with cheaper food.

shadowninty

Unless you like poverty farming, it does...

Cathal O

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the CAP has very little to do with cheaper food.

Yes it does, it allows a lot more farmers to be kept in the business of farming. without the CAP subsidies a lot of farmers would cease trading and therefore reduce the amount of food available from these farmers, this in turn would lead to an increase in price of the less common foods.

So in short, the CAP has cheapened food, without it, food would become more expensive.

Fratton Fred

Cathal O wrote: »

Yes it does, it allows a lot more farmers to be kept in the business of farming. without the CAP subsidies a lot of farmers would cease trading and therefore reduce the amount of food available from these farmers, this in turn would lead to an increase in price of the less common foods.

So in short, the CAP has cheapened food, without it, food would become more expensive.

50 years ago maybe, but not anymore. it was more about securing supply of food and protecting farmers than it was about providing people with cheap food but it stopped being beneficial and became a farce 20 years ago.

Cathal O

Fratton Fred wrote: »

50 years ago maybe, but not anymore. it was more about securing supply of food and protecting farmers than it was about providing people with cheap food but it stopped being beneficial and became a farce 20 years ago.

While i agree it may not compare to 50 years ago ,its still keeping many farmers in business, especially now with the R word in full force and all , its still very beneficial. Again though i agree it is a bit of a farce in that closer monitoring is needed

Fratton Fred

Cathal O wrote: »

While i agree it may not compare to 50 years ago ,its still keeping many farmers in business, especially now with the R word in full force and all , its still very beneficial. Again though i agree it is a bit of a farce in that closer monitoring is needed

It costs the eu a lot of money and provides relatively few jobs.

There must be better uses for a significant proportion of the eu's money than propping up the farming sector.

SIR PEADO BAILOUT

Wanting to keep Elizabeth Windsor as yer Head of State,now that`s an own goal straightaway there..SNP have snookered themselves by not going the Presidential route..a case of having yer cake and saving it :rolleyes: IMHO

Fratton Fred

SIR PEADO BAILOUT wrote: »

Wanting to keep Elizabeth Windsor as yer Head of State,now that`s an own goal straightaway there..SNP have snookered themselves by not going the Presidential route..a case of having yer cake and saving it :rolleyes: IMHO

It's only an own goal if the majority of people in Scotland want a republic.

The Monarchy is very much an Anglo-Scots Monarchy so removing it would require a major change to their constitution which may be a step too far.

newmug

I wonder what would happen to the "british" army? Would there be an independant Scottish one? Would the british army become the english, Welch, and NI army?

And what about a new Scottish flag? Would they just use the St. Andrews cross or come up with something totally different?

irishh_bob

wont happen , most scots deep down long for the embrace of the union , the appetite for independance is overstated , always has been

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

It occurred because Scottish, Welsh and Irish representation was insignificant in Westminster.

Nonsense. Until 2005 Scotland was over-represented at Westminster. It had more MPs per capita than England had.

RandomName2

SIR PEADO BAILOUT wrote: »

Wanting to keep Elizabeth Windsor as yer Head of State,now that`s an own goal straightaway there..SNP have snookered themselves by not going the Presidential route..a case of having yer cake and saving it :rolleyes: IMHO

Well unless they could grab a whole heap of natural resources and move out of the EU and establish themselves as a very different type of economy within the British Isles, independence would be irrelevant, expensive, and solely the product of blinkered nationalism.

IMO if a group of people wants independence then they should have it - far better than them being antagonistic or feeling alienated within a state they do not feel that they belong to. Mind you, I find it hard to fathom why they would seek independence: there are few grounds for it culturally, economically, ethnically, politically, resligious, or militarily.

Win-win for the Tories either way. If independence is voted down they can claim to have strengthened the union. If Scotland gets independence, the UK makes a net-saving (notwithstanding possible loss of natural resources) and the Conservatives permanently increase their relative representation in Parliament!

A Dub in Glasgo

Why all the furore about Salmond and the SNP if

1. Losing Scotland would be a political asset to the Tories
2. Scottish people are constantly being told that the English taxpayers are subsidising them
3. Scottish people being told that nationalism is an outdated concept

snafuk35

England's Edward I invaded Scotland in 1296, Robert De Bruce won Scottish Independence in 1314. The Scottish Stuart family become rulers of England in 1603 until 1714 and now in 2012 the Scots want to jump ship again? Will the Scots make up their bloody minds?

Lantus

scotland faces a tought choice if it leaves. retain the pound but no power over it financially. i.e. interest rates controlled from london. Or join the euro. both are economically poor choices. Salmon has beaten the independance drum like a zealot and is blinded by it. scotland is by it's natue a rural country with no natural resources and no real industry. Most if it's key businesses are english operating in scotland as part of the uk and may not wish to be forced into the EU.

le us not forget that scotland joined the union because it was ruined financially. It's development to the modern country we know today is because of the union.

I think that scotland would go backwards big time. Business would not invest in a new country, huge cuts would need to be made to public services, the poeple would revolt and it would inevitably have to come crawling back and beg for re-admission into the union again.

the power to decide what exactly by being independant? it's all really silly and if the scotish people have any sense they will throw it out rather than let a lunatic lead them to ruin.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lantus wrote: »

with no natural resources and no real industry.

:rolleyes: stopped reading after that bit

irishh_bob

Lantus wrote: »

scotland faces a tought choice if it leaves. retain the pound but no power over it financially. i.e. interest rates controlled from london. Or join the euro. both are economically poor choices. Salmon has beaten the independance drum like a zealot and is blinded by it. scotland is by it's natue a rural country with no natural resources and no real industry. Most if it's key businesses are english operating in scotland as part of the uk and may not wish to be forced into the EU.

le us not forget that scotland joined the union because it was ruined financially. It's development to the modern country we know today is because of the union.

I think that scotland would go backwards big time. Business would not invest in a new country, huge cuts would need to be made to public services, the poeple would revolt and it would inevitably have to come crawling back and beg for re-admission into the union again.

the power to decide what exactly by being independant? it's all really silly and if the scotish people have any sense they will throw it out rather than let a lunatic lead them to ruin.

agreed , it hasnt much of anything that could make it successfully stand alone

Sunnyisland

Why does the question of scottish Independence only have to do with economics, Does scotland and the scottish people not have the right to re-establish its national identity on the International stage, I know there is a valid issue in asking if an Independent scotland would be viable but if countries were just about economics then could england not seek a union with germany,There is a lot more to having your country an Independent state than economics.

Batsy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

:rolleyes: stopped reading after that bit

As was pointed out in the other Scottish independence thread, Scotland's main export at the moment is toxic banking.

The UK's financial crisis originated largely in Scotland, not the City of London.

Batsy

realies wrote: »

Why does the question of scottish Independence only have to do with economics, Does scotland and the scottish people not have the right to re-establish its national identity on the International stage, I know there is a valid issue in asking if an Independent scotland would be viable but if countries were just about economics then could england not seek a union with germany,There is a lot more to having your country an Independent state than economics.

What's the point of Scotland seceding from the Union if it will make it poorer? Surely that is something to take into account. And a new poll has shown that the main worry for Scots is that independence will make Scotland poorer.

irishh_bob

realies wrote: »

Why does the question of scottish Independence only have to do with economics, Does scotland and the scottish people not have the right to re-establish its national identity on the International stage, I know there is a valid issue in asking if an Independent scotland would be viable but if countries were just about economics then could england not seek a union with germany,There is a lot more to having your country an Independent state than economics.

most scotts are unionists as will prove the case in any referendum

like has been said in after hours , irish people have this completley baseless idea of scotland and how its politics and charecther is almost idential to our own , this is completley untrue , the only scots who have anything in common with irish people are celtic supporters and those of irish ancestry , the majority of scots are very similar to the unionists who live in northern ireland , staunch presbyterians who ( truth be told ) are dour , conservative and not all that gone on us irish , nowhere outside of northern ireland will you experience more anti irish prejudice than in scotland , take it from me

btw , if i was english , id be itching to get rid of my grumbling neighbours to the north , aint going to happen though

also , if i was catholic and lived in scotland , i would vote against independance , a catholic minority in an independant scotland has much to fear , vast majority of catholics in scotland are opposed to independance , they know the english are not bigots

europa11

irishh_bob wrote: »

.......the majority of scots are very similar to the unionists who live in northern ireland , staunch presbyterians who ( truth be told ) are dour , conservative and not all that gone on us irish , nowhere outside of northern ireland will you experience more anti irish prejudice than in scotland , take it from me ..........they know the english are not bigots

Have bitter experience of that having been in Scotland on a few occasions during the NI "Troubles" and more often than not the atmosphere was openly hostile when an Irish accent was detected.

Sorry for generalising but give me England and the more open-minded English any day.

irishh_bob

europa11 wrote: »

Have bitter experience of that having been in Scotland on a few occasions during the NI "Troubles" and more often than not the atmosphere was openly hostile when an Irish accent was detected.

Sorry for generalising but give me England and the more open-minded English any day.

always had great time for the english myself unlike thier small minded petty neighbours to the north

Broxi_Bear_Eire

europa11 wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

.......the majority of scots are very similar to the unionists who live in northern ireland , staunch presbyterians who ( truth be told ) are dour , conservative and not all that gone on us irish , nowhere outside of northern ireland will you experience more anti irish prejudice than in scotland , take it from me ..........they know the english are not bigots

Have bitter experience of that having been in Scotland on a few occasions during the NI "Troubles" and more often than not the atmosphere was openly hostile when an Irish accent was detected.

Sorry for generalising but give me England and the more open-minded English any day.

Yours and the post above are absolute tosh in my experience which was a lengthy one the Scots could not have been more friendly I had no problems with any of them now to be fair you will get morons and idiots from any country we have them here but please don't try and tarnish a whole nation because I can tell you stories about our own island if we are going down that route I personally thought the thread was about independence

irishh_bob

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Yours and the post above are absolute tosh in my experience which was a lengthy one the Scots could not have been more friendly I had no problems with any of them now to be fair you will get morons and idiots from any country we have them here but please don't try and tarnish a whole nation because I can tell you stories about our own island if we are going down that route I personally thought the thread was about independence

well you would say that , your a rangers supporting unionist who happens to live in donegal