Working for free...

BlastedGlute

I have no problem with it. In fact I feel less pressure and I also think the people I work with feel more relaxed when there is no financial tomfoolery involved. Plus I'm not pro and dont really deserve the cash as its just a hobby! I'm starting into a project thats very dear to my heart. I know that this circuit only has one or maybe 2 other photogs in Ireland doing the same work and making money from their efforts. I will be approaching this as a photographer and also as someone involved in the subject itself.

I'm just wondering, as I will be working for free and the other photogs certainly do not, what kind of dynamic will this have on my place at the events I will be attending. Will I be hated for what I'm doing? I already have the support of 2 leading professionals and they are very excited to work closely with me. Knowing I have not photographed this kind of work before but willing to do practice runs before competitions and such to make sure I have a better of idea of what to do. They like my current work even though it's not relative to what we will be doing.

Anyway I think my question is, is it just dirty business to be working for free, possible taking away business from a working paid professional who's been on the circuit for a long time. Or is it simply that if my work is just as good or better and im willing to give it away to the subject for free, and leave them not wanting to pay for the other work that has been done(as it is their choice if afterwards they would like to purchase prints) then that is ok to?


I dont know if I explained any of this very well but im trying not to mention what the actual subject is as I dont want to talk about individuals involved as thats not what im here for. I just want some advice from the folks here!

Tactical

What's the subject?

It would help me to make an informed comment on your post rather than a general comment.

jpb1974

<Prepares self for photography forums greatest ever groundhog debate>

Reoil

Your photography could be ****, in which case nobody would want to pay for it.
Charge for your work.

PCPhoto

thats tough to read ..... can you use paragraphs or something ?

from what I understand you are asking how you will be viewed by other photographers if you are shooting at an event for free.

Firstly - who will know you are doing it for free, its not like you walk around with a neon sign stating how much you are getting for being there so only the people you tell will know.

Secondly - you can do what you want !! its your life.

Thirdly - "Most" professionals are overpriced but charge big money because they are professionals and as such they usually (or at least they should) know how to do the job and get the best results for the client....there are plenty of people who have taken photography up as a hobby and offer themselves as a cheap alternative to professionals - sometimes they know what they are doing - sometimes they don't.

Fourthly (I'm on a roll here!!) .... its possible that someone (A professional) may have lost money on you doing the job for free ... but on the flipside , its also possible that someone else would have done it for free if you didn't.

Photography as a career is dying because people do not value the art of taking an image,
- cameras are more and more sophisticated and can handle tricky lighting situations,
- cameras are cheaper and more available to the general public.
- Professional techniques/tricks are widely available to learn (you tube etc)


on the other hand - if you are taking photographs you are devaluing your camera if someone wants you to take photos for them - you should at least cover your expenses.

its not free to travel to and from any event, it takes time to look through your images and choose which ones to give to the person who asked you to take them ..... will the person use the images to make money (I mean to sell on to a client or use them for promotion of the event etc) ...... if so they are making money from you and you are getting taken advantage of.

DaireQuinlan

In graphical form ...

http://shouldiworkforfree.com/

Also, ++on the paragraphs. I only read the thread title, your post is impossible to parse.

oshead

BlastedGlute wrote: »

I have no problem with it. In fact I feel less pressure and I also think the people I work with feel more relaxed when there is no financial tomfoolery involved. Plus I'm not pro and dont really deserve the cash as its just a hobby!

Financial tomfoolery puts food on the plate and clothes on your back. Having the punter not pay removes value from your efforts in their eyes.

Just a little word of advise, always try to get a least a little bit of tomfoolery into your work, it really pays in the longrun.

smelltheglove

Honestly, charge some sort of fee, otherwise you will be inundated with hassle for nothing... and it costs you money, in gear devaluation, petrol even down to electricity for editing your work.

As for the professionals, well do you want to be on their good side? I have done some small jobs for local clubs for free, I refuse to allow them to submit the work to papers for free, as this is filling the papers pages with free images rather than images supplied by the working photojournalists.

BlastedGlute

Sorry for the paragraphs and typos. Writing this on a phone under a desk at work trying not to get caught. Text formatting on this is impossible. Cant really reply properly right now but just wanted to say i dont want to come across as disrespectful to any pro/working photog on here by calling money tomfoolery. I love this culture and hobby and respect the opinions of those on the forum thats why i asked here!

The Snipe

Well, With me personally, I take it on a case per case basis. Sometimes I'll do a shoot for free, if its for something close to me, (Eg. Milford Hospice in Limerick, I will do anything for free for, because its close to everyone in Limerick, and the surrounding area); And then there is others where I will get paid Benefit-In-Kind, Eg. Working for my Regular (As in a bar), I do a few photos or a poster every now and then, And I get my drinks, or my dinners in there for free for a few weeks, and then I do some more - cause I'd end up spending more in there, then what I'm making off them in that space of time!

sheesh

So from your original post.

you are photographing an event or series of events, the images you take will be used in some commercial capacity and you will receive no payment.

There will be professional photographers there.

Are you taking the images for an individual or and organisation?

Should you work for free?
It depends. Is the person you are doing the photographs for getting paid for your work? If they are you are just doing someones job for them and letting them get paid for it. you are a schmuck.

Does this photographic work get you access to places that you would otherwise not see or have to pay to see. then you are getting something. thats ok.

Is it for some organisation that your are interested in supporting and you hope that by doing some photographs for them you will save/earn some money for this organisation. Thats ok.

Eirebear

The biggest issue for me is the value you put on your own work, your own time, and your own equipment.
I understand that you are doing it because you enjoy it, and for many that is a great buzz - not to mention the chance to see something of your own used in print form or whatever.

However, what you also need to remember is that by valuing your work as something that you give away for free - you are also devaluing the work of everyone who does something similar and i feel that should always be taken into account.

brightspark

Eirebear wrote: »

The biggest issue for me is the value you put on your own work, your own time, and your own equipment.
I understand that you are doing it because you enjoy it, and for many that is a great buzz - not to mention the chance to see something of your own used in print form or whatever.

However, what you also need to remember is that by valuing your work as something that you give away for free - you are also devaluing the work of everyone who does something similar and i feel that should always be taken into account.

Do GAA players devalue the work of professional soccer players?
Does amateur acting devalue the work of professional actors?
Does the guy who sings/plays his party piece devalue professional musicians?

There are many more examples of people who enjoy something as a hobby and are willing to pay for the pleasure of enjoying that hobby.
Maybe they dream of it as a career, but many are also aware that there are downsides to most careers, e.g. working hours and lack of guaranteed income.

The value of a professional generally is their ability to consistantly produce results, something an amateur doesn't have to worry about (not saying they don't try their best of course).

That is why people pay photographers for weddings, sports etc, where there is no second chance to get the shot right.

Eirebear

brightspark wrote: »

Do GAA players devalue the work of professional soccer players?
Does amateur acting devalue the work of professional actors?
Does the guy who sings/plays his party piece devalue professional musicians?

There are many more examples of people who enjoy something as a hobby and are willing to pay for the pleasure of enjoying that hobby.
Maybe they dream of it as a career, but many are also aware that there are downsides to most careers, e.g. working hours and lack of guaranteed income.

The value of a professional generally is their ability to consistantly produce results, something an amateur doesn't have to worry about (not saying they don't try their best of course).

That is why people pay photographers for weddings, sports etc, where there is no second chance to get the shot right.

Your analogies make no sense.
GAA players play a different sport from Soccer players, how would it affect them?
Amateur actors don't work for free when their is commercial gain elsewhere, you wont get any AmDram Player offering their talents to a West End Musical for free - that's why Equity exists.
Same goes for the guy doing his kareoke version of My Way.

As i say, it should always be taken into account.
If the people who are getting a photographer to work for free stand to make commercial gain from the work he does, then it devalues his work, and the work of other proffesionals if he works for free.

brightspark

I can't find where in the OP it said that commercial gain was being made from the images taken by the pros. just that currently pros have been providing the service up to now.

There are a lot of people who play soccer as a hobby too, my point about GAA players is that many of them though unpaid put a lot of time, effort and money into doing something similar to what others get paid for doing.

Equity exists to stop people going on stage for nothing. I know there are a lot of Amdram actors who wouldn't hesitate if offered a chance to appear on the west end even if unpaid. Equity is the actors union, perhaps pro photographers should get together and boycott those papers etc which don't pay for all photos submitted.

The guy doing the karoke version of 'my way' is doing it purely to entertain his friends etc. Isn't he stopping the cover act band from getting paid work?


Of course given the choice between doing something for free and doing the same thing and get paid, almost everyone would take the money.

But if not given that choice many will still enjoy doing their hobby unpaid! Monetary gain isn't the only form of reward/motivation.

Of course you are right in that if someone else is making money as a result of your work you should get your share.

Professionals in any area of life will always be in demand and hence always earn a living, by professionals I mean those that consistently produce the goods for which people are willing to pay a premium.

magicbastarder

there's a very simple rule as far as i am concerned - if someone else is going to make money using your work, then so should you.

I think that, because there are so many people out there with cameras touting themselves as professionals and working cheaply, that most people will generally have to do a bit of stuff for free starting out, before they can start charging people anything.


Photography is very easily accessible to everyone. In my opinion, working for free is a way of getting your foot on the ladder.

BlastedGlute

sheesh wrote: »

Is it for some organisation that your are interested in supporting and you hope that by doing some photographs for them you will save/earn some money for this organisation. Thats ok.

I guess this is about right. It's a bit of an organization. But one that doesnt really make any money. The individuals spend their lives dedicating themselves to being involved, spend a lot of their own money and make many sacrifices in their personal lives to get there. I love it and am partially as dedicated. I love to talk to the people involved and generally get amongst it. I'm hoping I can help them out to document their lives and achievements along the way. I wont be printing work for them, and if I do they will pay the cost price of the print, and I know a great printers and what size they will work at etc. I want my own little place in an industry that is a bit fringe.

ditpaintball

Here is a good link on the subject: http://shouldiworkforfree.com/

ted1

If its work charge. If its a hobby is pastime you enjoy don't charge. If someone is profiting from your art then ask them not or look for something in return. If its a hotel get a free night. A shop get a free product etc etc