INTO Directive to teachers-don't work with unqualified subs...

MilkTheGroup

Are teachers really going to follow this directive in practice??

And also on a side-note, would teachers draw any distinction ( in terms of who is an acceptable sub) between someone like myself who has a 2.1 third level degree, a masters and is now starting Hibernia because I really want to be a teacher and say a local mother with just a leaving cert who sees it as a handy way to make some extra bob? If there are no qualified teachers in my area able to get to the school in time if a teacher rings in sick or they haven't made principals aware of their presence, what is the problem in me stepping in just for that one day?

MilkTheGroup

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

Are teachers really going to follow this directive in practice??

And also on a side-note, would teachers draw any distinction ( in terms of who is an acceptable sub) between someone like myself who has a 2.1 third level degree, a masters and is now starting Hibernia because I really want to be a teacher and say a local mother with just a leaving cert who sees it as a handy way to make some extra bob? If there are no qualified teachers in my area able to get to the school in time if a teacher rings in sick or they haven't made principals aware of their presence, what is the problem in me stepping in just for that one day?

I know so many people who are fully qualified teachers and cannot even get an interview for a job. Teachers in schools are becoming more and more aware of the desperate plight of their newly qualified colleagues and many would feel stongly in favour of following this directive in practice.

If it's just for one day, split the class. Send x number of children into Mr/Ms a/b/c's classes. Not ideal but better than having an unqualified person in the room with the children. Even though you are highly educated and soon to be a student teacher the point is you are still unqualified and shouldn't be teaching in a classroom.

E.T.

Yes, this directive will be followed. Having unqualified subs of any kind in has led to a lot of disrespect for teaching as a profession. It doesn't matter how qualified anyone is, if they don't have a teaching qualification, they're not qualified to teach. I would prefer to take extra children in my classroom for the day rather than have someone unqualified paid to "teach".

In terms of distinctions, it completely depends on what area your degree and masters are in. If they are in something like Early Childhood Education or Montessori then obviously this is a lot more acceptable than someone with qualifications in areas unrelated to education.

I completely welcome the new directive because I've had the experience a number of times of meeting people who've subbed in schools, and have taken great pleasure in telling me what a cushy number I have, how they got on so well etc. None of these people did anything beside turn up at the school, do a bit of "teaching" and leave when the bell rang. None of the everyday things that every teacher does - long and short term plans, individual differentiation, liaising with psychologist/OT/social worker etc, sourcing classroom materials, meeting parents etc. Their ignorance of the realities of teaching doesn't stop them telling everyone they meet about how little teachers do. This is why teachers are happy with the directive.

MilkTheGroup

E.T. wrote: »

Yes, this directive will be followed. Having unqualified subs of any kind in has led to a lot of disrespect for teaching as a profession.

I completely welcome the new directive because I've had the experience a number of times of meeting people who've subbed in schools, and have taken great pleasure in telling me what a cushy number I have, how they got on so well etc. Their ignorance of the realities of teaching doesn't stop them telling everyone they meet about how little teachers do. This is why teachers are happy with the directive.

Well actually I have nothing but respect for teaching as a profession. Both my parents, my grandfather and almost all of my aunts and uncles were or are teachers at primary and secondary level. I am fully aware that teaching is an intensive job and that there is an enormous amount of work done that people aren't aware of.

The point of the directive as I understand it is not to stop disrespect, it is intended to help qualified teachers get work.

But lets get real, if myself a soon-to-be trainee teacher and a fully qualified teacher both go into a school and let a principal know we're available for subbing OF COURSE the principal is going to opt for the fully qualified sub!! And OF COURSE he should choose them over me that goes without saying but its not my fault that there isn't any available teachers in my area.

Fully qualified teachers are unemployed because of cuts in school staffing not because of unqualified subs.

mat cauthon

Would you accept an unqualified pilot, because he could fly a bit, and there was no one better?
I do not care how well qualified you say you are, you are not a teacher. I could do a masters in biology, I wouldn't be a doctor.
So - go get qualified, and then when you are left with no work, you will feel very differently about the boss taking on unqualified people.

MilkTheGroup

mat cauthon wrote: »

Would you accept an unqualified pilot, because he could fly a bit, and there was no one better?
I do not care how well qualified you say you are, you are not a teacher. I could do a masters in biology, I wouldn't be a doctor.
So - go get qualified, and then when you are left with no work, you will feel very differently about the boss taking on unqualified people.

I NEVER called myself a fully qualified teacher. Again no one has addressed my argument that I am not getting in the way of any qualified teacher. Your analogy between an unqualified teacher and an unqualified pilot is a bit illogical to be honest! A pilot has the lives of people in his hands, I'm supervising a classroom while children are doing work prepared by their teacher in advance.

dambarude

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

But lets get real, if myself a soon-to-be trainee teacher and a fully qualified teacher both go into a school and let a principal know we're available for subbing OF COURSE the principal is going to opt for the fully qualified sub!! And OF COURSE he should choose them over me that goes without saying but its not my fault that there isn't any available teachers in my area.

You can't assume that a principal would choose the qualified sub. I've personally heard of lots of recent cases where unqualified were employed when there were very clearly qualified subs available. Educationposts.ie is full of similar stories. If your relatives are all teachers you'll have heard of the 'principal's niece/nephew/daughter/son/cousin' getting work before anybody else. The same would seem to apply here in some but not all cases. Obviously if there are no subs, it's a different story, but I'd say few if no areas are without primary subs at the moment.

The INTO directive puts even more of an onus on the principal to hire a qualified, so it should hopefully work.

MilkTheGroup

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

I NEVER called myself a fully qualified teacher. Again no one has addressed my argument that I am not getting in the way of any qualified teacher. Your analogy between an unqualified teacher and an unqualified pilot is a bit illogical to be honest! A pilot has the lives of people in his hands, I'm supervising a classroom while children are doing work prepared by their teacher in advance.

In your first post OP didn't you say "If there are no qualified teachers in my area able to get to the school in time if a teacher rings in sick or they haven't made principals aware of their presence, what is the problem in me stepping in just for that one day?" So you're contradictng yourself, if a teacher rang in sick at the last minute they couldn't possible have work prepared in advance for you to 'teach'.

My answer was to split the class. Unqualified subs, student teachers or otherwise, aren't teachers. A friend of mine qualified just last year and considered herself lucky to get a few weeks subbing when there were teachers out with the flu last winter. However, what made her so angry was that all along, while she was sitting by the phone every morning praying that a teacher might be sick and she could step in, there were two Hibernia students 'teaching' maternity leaves in that school - two siblings well in with the principal. Qualified teachers will take a stand against this kind of thing come September and will be very black and white about it - you're either qualified or you're not, no in between.

MilkTheGroup

Deleted User wrote: »

In your first post OP didn't you say "If there are no qualified teachers in my area able to get to the school in time if a teacher rings in sick or they haven't made principals aware of their presence, what is the problem in me stepping in just for that one day?" So you're contradictng yourself, if a teacher rang in sick at the last minute they couldn't possible have work prepared in advance for you to 'teach'.

I didn't contradict myself at all, i have work prepared with my relative teachers for each year group so if I get called I always have work for the class to do if their teacher has not left any. I don't 'teach', I supervise for the day and I'm paid half what a qualified sub is and rightly so.

Also just to mention I'm neither related or 'well-in' with any member of any school, principal or teacher I have subbed in. I'm simply living locally, available at short notice and on Hibernia and theres no qualified teachers in our area who've made themselves known to the principal.

And what are you actually going to do if an unqualified sub comes into ur school? are you going to refuse to work for the rest of the day while they are there? what can you do in reality that would stop this happening??

lily09

There has to be a line drawn somewhere unfortunatly. Anyone who has not completed a degree or postgraduate qualification in education is not a teacher.
To answer your initial question there are very clear guidelines of what a teacher should do in the case of a sub without education qualifications working in their school.
Personally I would not stand for anybody coming into my school who is not qualified. I would prefer to see a class split than cheapen the profession. There is no such thing as an unqualified teacher.
Best of luck in your course.

MilkTheGroup

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

I didn't contradict myself at all, i have work prepared with my relative teachers for each year group so if I get called I always have work for the class to do if their teacher has not left any. I don't 'teach', I supervise for the day and I'm paid half what a qualified sub is and rightly so.

Also just to mention I'm neither related or 'well-in' with any member of any school, principal or teacher I have subbed in. I'm simply living locally, available at short notice and on Hibernia and theres no qualified teachers in our area who've made themselves known to the principal.

And what are you actually going to do if an unqualified sub comes into ur school? are you going to refuse to work for the rest of the day while they are there? what can you do in reality that would stop this happening??

I was only going by what you were saying OP, in that you would be supervising a classroom while children are doing work prepared by their teacher in advance.(which couldn't happen if a teacher called sick at the last minute)...and then in a later post you said you'd have things prepared for the different classes if called in at the last minute. That's why I saw you as contradicting yourself. It wasn't made clear what you were saying, sorry. I don't mean to be harsh on you, I just firmly believe that there shouldn't be an unqualified person on their own in a classroom while there are thousands of qualified teachers crying out for work. Teachers are professionals, the children should be taught by professionals only.

BTW I wasn't getting at you at all when I mentioned those other people who were 'well in' with the principal. I know the unqualified rate is much lower than QT sub rate, and as you said rightly so, who is to know that when the new directive is implemented that the DES won't abolish the unqualified rate altogether ?

You're in an advantageous position OP with Hibernia, as I'm sure you're well aware. The fact it's not wholetime means you can earn a few bob doing whatever to help you get through the course. The people doing the fulltime postgrads in St. Pat's, Mary I etc. won't have those extra hours in the day to do that. Wishing you the very best of luck with the course, these are tough times for us all, and top class education by brilliant teachers like what you will be of our future generations is the key to getting us out of this mess we're in. Our children deserve the best education available by fully qualified teachers.

MilkTheGroup

Unfortunately I will most likely not be working during Hibernia as I've been unemployed since leaving my masters last summer (except for 2 days subbing :P). I havent been able to get any work in the area in which I did my degree and masters so ill probably still be on the dole queue for the two years which thankfully i can claim as its a part-time course! thanks I will do my very best on the course.

MilkTheGroup

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

Unfortunately I will most likely not be working during Hibernia as I've been unemployed since leaving my masters last summer (except for 2 days subbing :P). I havent been able to get any work in the area in which I did my degree and masters so ill probably still be on the dole queue for the two years which thankfully i can claim as its a part-time course! thanks I will do my very best on the course.

That must be soul destroying for you OP, having a masters and being unable to get work in your field. However no point in being qualified in something when you'd rather be doing something elso. Fair play to you after all this for going for it with regard to teaching, you've obviously had lots of time to consider your options, your heart is telling you to teach and your following it.

Brookie123

As a qualified teacher with no work this coming September, I will be subbing unless something comes up. I know some of my friends who are also qualified teachers plan to reports unqualified teachers to the Teaching Council and INTO as they're sick of the situation with unqualifieds subbing in schools and also retired teachers. I think you can report someone without giving away your own identity.

lily09

Brookie123 wrote: »

As a qualified teacher with no work this coming September, I will be subbing unless something comes up. I know some of my friends who are also qualified teachers plan to reports unqualified teachers to the Teaching Council and INTO as they're sick of the situation with unqualifieds subbing in schools and also retired teachers. I think you can report someone without giving away your own identity.

If its any consolation the feeling on the ground is that teachers will not stand for unqualified personnel in schools. We have already made it clear to our principal that we fully intend to carry out the directive. I have no problem giving my name. Best of luck in your search for work, hopefully once the supplementry panel is cleared their will be a better picture of work available.

Brookie123

Thanks lily09, it's great to see there's teachers out there who will stand up for us teachers without jobs.

killbillvol2

lily09 wrote: »

If its any consolation the feeling on the ground is that teachers will not stand for unqualified personnel in schools. We have already made it clear to our principal that we fully intend to carry out the directive. I have no problem giving my name. Best of luck in your search for work, hopefully once the supplementry panel is cleared their will be a better picture of work available.

Brookie123 wrote: »

Thanks lily09, it's great to see there's teachers out there who will stand up for us teachers without jobs.

There are lots of teachers who are sick and tired of every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering in the door to babysit and then telling us how easy the job was. I'd find it easy if all I did was show Harry Potter movies!

A lot of us also remember how difficult it was to get a job when we started.

This has been INTO policy for as long as I remember and this directive leaves no wriggle room - there's a separate directive telling principals "not to certify any unregistered person as competent and capable of acting in a teaching capacity".

There won't be any non-teachers in our school from September and from talking to colleagues that's very much the general view.

E.T.

There's a group who seem to be very active and have contacted schools re the FÁS WPP and unqualified people in schools - if anyone knows of unqualified people working in schools, or schools advertising for the FÁS scheme, you can let the group know at their facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/INTO.NQTs

Cat Melodeon

I know this affects primary and pre schools rather than secondary, but what are teachers' positions re unqualified persons doing home tuition? I've had 5 hrs a week this year working with a chronically ill LCA student. The hours were split over 2 evenings and Sundays. I'm in a pretty rural area and the job was heavily advertised but no one, qualified or unqualified, came forward to do it when they saw how fractured the hours were. I've fully enjoyed doing the work. The class teachers were very poor at passing on any materials and although I tried my best to liaise with them, very little assistance was forthcoming so I did about 95% of the planning and prep myself. Perhaps the reluctance to help was due to my unqualified status? That would be pretty unprofessional considering there was no one else willing to take the position. There may always be exceptional circumstances where qualified teachers simply can't be found, should the pupils suffer? Particularly where they need extra support and can't simply be shunted into another classroom?

MilkTheGroup

killbillvol2 wrote: »

There are lots of teachers who are sick and tired of every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering in the door to babysit

I recently spoke to a teacher who has been teaching for 40 years and this is what she told me about a common scenario in her school....

Its winter, 7 teachers are out one day. the principal can only get 2 qualified teachers in to sub. He has the option either to split the remainder of the students into other classes or ring an unqualified sub.

This teacher told me that she and many other teachers on her staff would much prefer if they'd call an unqualifed sub because its MORE WORK for them having lots of extra students in the class. They would MUCH prefer if an unqualified sub was called.

Of course its not an ideal situation having an unqualified person but this teacher told me she would feel abused if whenever someone was sick she would have to take on a large number of extra students.

If I was a qualified teacher with no work I would be pounding the pavement heading from school to school letting principals now I'm available and can get to the school in time. Alot of unemployed teachers dont seem to be doing this. One newly qualified teacher told me most of her class without work don't do this. Its not my fault that they haven't let themselves known to the school I've subbed in.

killbillvol2

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

I recently spoke to a teacher who has been teaching for 40 years and this is what she told me about a common scenario in her school....

Its winter, 7 teachers are out one day. the principal can only get 2 qualified teachers in to sub. He has the option either to split the remainder of the students into other classes or ring an unqualified sub.

This teacher told me that she and many other teachers on her staff would much prefer if they'd call an unqualifed sub because its MORE WORK for them having lots of extra students in the class. They would MUCH prefer if an unqualified sub was called.

Of course its not an ideal situation having an unqualified person but this teacher told me she would feel abused if whenever someone was sick she would have to take on a large number of extra students.

If I was a qualified teacher with no work I would be pounding the pavement heading from school to school letting principals now I'm available and can get to the school in time. Alot of unemployed teachers dont seem to be doing this. One newly qualified teacher told me most of her class without work don't do this. Its not my fault that they haven't let themselves known to the school I've subbed in.

Obviously that teacher places no value on her profession after 40 years and would accept any solution so that she's not inconvenienced.

From September she and her colleagues will have to accept such inconveniences and their principal will have to make more effort to find a qualified teacher. I'd expect it to be a lot easier to do so in the coming school year as there will be a glut of newly qualified teachers to add to those already in the system. We've already set up an ad hoc supply panel in our area using qualified teachers who've either subbed or done teaching practice in our schools.

One of the reasons that non-teachers have been allowed to babysit for so long is the attitude of your friend and some of her colleagues. They no longer have the option to shut their doors and ignore the fact that the class across the corridor is being supervised by some randomer with no competence or qualification to teach.

A number of schools I know, including my own, have already discussed this directive and are eager to see it finally clear the chancers out of the system. It may involve some days when we have to look after some extra children but so be it. At the end of a relatively short time the practice will be eradicated.

MilkTheGroup

killbillvol2 wrote: »

At the end of a relatively short time the practice will be eradicated.

Only time will tell i suppose. I very much doubt it will be fully eradicated. I'd imagine it will act as a deterrent to principals but considering the variance in opinions held by teachers concerning the issue (it matters to some but to others they couldn't care less) it will probably continue in many schools.

I would like to remind you a similar position was taken by a secondary school teachers organisation a number of years ago but it changed nothing.

As that teacher told me teachers may report unqualified subs to the INTO but when it comes to actually balloting its members for striking (if the sub is still around) most teachers she knows are not going to want to go that far! A woman on her staff has been subbing for decades with just an Inter Cert and her principal even told her she finds it impossible to find qualified teachers to sub .

E.T.

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

A woman on her staff has been subbing for decades with just an Inter Cert and her principal even told her she finds it impossible to find qualified teachers to sub .

That is so disgraceful - the principal should be ashamed of herself for employing someone with just an Inter Cert. That's a clear example of a case where the class should be split instead of employing someone completely unqualified. What other profession would employ someone with no qualification other than the Inter Cert? No wonder people look down on teaching.

killbillvol2

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

Only time will tell i suppose. I very much doubt it will be fully eradicated. I'd imagine it will act as a deterrent to principals but considering the variance in opinions held by teachers concerning the issue (it matters to some but to others they couldn't care less) it will probably continue in many schools.

I would like to remind you a similar position was taken by a secondary school teachers organisation a number of years ago but it changed nothing.
As that teacher told me teachers may report unqualified subs to the INTO but when it comes to actually balloting its members for striking (if the sub is still around) most teachers she knows are not going to want to go that far! A woman on her staff has been subbing for decades with just an Inter Cert and her principal even told her she finds it impossible to find qualified teachers to sub .

No comparison. The vast majority of teachers and principals at primary level are members of the INTO and the INTO doesn't issue directives lightly.

The ballot for industrial action will rarely have to be used in any case as the more important directive is the one for principals.

namurt

As a qualified but unemployed teacher I can see the argument from both sides. I think it's wrong to have an unqualified person in as cover if a qualified teacher is available and it's wrong to have an unqualified person in for any more than a day.

However, realistically if a number of teachers call in sick on the one day (as in the example MilkTheGroup gave) can you honestly say (killbill specifically) that you would rather have 5 classes of children divided up and sent to sit at the back of what may already be a very full class? Furthermore, can you also honestly say that if you teach 6th class, for example, and the children who are sent to you are from Junior Infants that you are actually going to teach them that day? All you are likely to do is check on them and try to keep them occupied.....just like the unqualified person would be doing.

Yes, there should be rules in place but there are always going to be situations where the rules may have to be temporarily bent.

An Bradán Feasa

namurt wrote: »

Furthermore, can you also honestly say that if you teach 6th class, for example, and the children who are sent to you are from Junior Infants that you are actually going to teach them that day? All you are likely to do is check on them and try to keep them occupied.....just like the unqualified person would be doing.

Better to have a Garda-vetted qualified teacher in charge than an unqualified person with no Garda vetting.

The qualified teacher has been through the system and knows how to deal with the needs of the child, academic or emotional.

The unqualified person will not have been through the system and will not be properly trained to deal with these children on any level, apart from "keeping an eye on them".

An Bradán Feasa

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

Better to have a Garda-vetted qualified teacher in charge than an unqualified person with no Garda vetting.

The qualified teacher has been through the system and knows how to deal with the needs of the child, academic or emotional.

The unqualified person will not have been through the system and will not be properly trained to deal with these children on any level, apart from "keeping an eye on them".

Agree 100%. Teaching is being undervalued as a profession by allowing everyone and anyone in to 'sub'. This wouldn't happen in any other profession. As a previous post said, 7 teachers call in sick and it's better to have somebody completely unqualified come in than split the class ??? Absolutley not.

If 7 gardaí/nurses called in sick and unqualifieds were draughted in to fight crime/treat the sick, there would be uproar. The show goes on regardless on our streets/in our hospitals, shouldn't be any different in our schools.

As for the person teaching for decades with just an Inter Cert (this isn't an isolated incident either) that's just scandalous. So a portion of a whole generation of our children have recieved their primary 'education' - the most vital education in a person's lifetime by people like this ?? Whatever about unqualifieds coming in to 'keep and eye' on the children, this is another disgrace.

namurt

Just because someone hasn't qualified as a teacher yet doesn't mean they haven't been garda vetted. I've had to be vetted 4 times for different things, only one of which was for the Teaching Council.

There's no point trying to compare teaching with other jobs to see what would happen if someone was out sick. If someone working in most other jobs is out sick do they need to be replaced immediately??? No, in the majority of cases they just catch up on the missed work when they get back. Obviously you can't do that with a group of children.

As I said, if someone qualified is available they should always be taken on first and everything possible should be done to find someone qualified. I find it hard to believe that those of you who think it's always better to split classes have ever been in the situation of having 35 kids in your class and being told you're going to have another 5 for the day.

uriah

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

Are teachers really going to follow this directive in practice??

And also on a side-note, would teachers draw any distinction ( in terms of who is an acceptable sub) between someone like myself who has a 2.1 third level degree, a masters and is now starting Hibernia because I really want to be a teacher and say a local mother with just a leaving cert who sees it as a handy way to make some extra bob? If there are no qualified teachers in my area able to get to the school in time if a teacher rings in sick or they haven't made principals aware of their presence, what is the problem in me stepping in just for that one day?

You are not a qualified teacher. Children have a right to be taught by fully qualified teachers.
If you can do the job now, why bother to qualify as a teacher?

Julieho

I don't post on Boards.ie very often but have read some of the threads with interest. Like thousands of fellow principals, I am an I.N.T.O. member and feel very strongly about the plight of young, newly qualified teachers. The same can be said of so many of my fellow principals.

I am principal of a large urban school for many years and when reading some of the contributions here, it would appear that there are those who are prepared to see the principal as an easy scapegoat for this problem, which is not fair. If there are instances of principals who wrecklessly employ unqualified personnel, when there are clearly several qualified teachers available, then that is inexcusable. It's not something I would do or have done. The task of finding qualified teachers is not, however, as easy as it might seem.

Throughout last winter, I began to dread Sunday evenings. On many occasions, the call came through that a teacher had fallen ill (sometimes several teachers). I began my task of calling my long list of qualified and available teachers. Often, after 20 calls, I had absolutely no success. Having left other messages and texts, I hoped that my phone would ring. Sometimes it did but often it didn't. The next morning, I had the task of still trying to find somebody, going through back up lists in school at 8.00 a.m.

There were many other times when I received unexpected texts at 7.15 a.m., from one of our teachers who were unfit for work. Although I felt badly doing so, if I thought a qualified teacher whom I knew was available (when last I heard), I would normally start texting about 7.40 a.m. in my quest. My own children have often lost patience with me, as I spent my early mornings trying to find a qualified substitute/s.

There were also more evenings than I care to remember, spent seeking qualified substitute teachers, while my own children waited for me to collect them or to bring them here or there.

I am giving this side of the story just to bring a bit of balance to this discussion. There are so many principals with whom I've spoken and corresponded, who could (and do) tell the exact same story as me. I am not complaining as I am happy to have a job and continue to do everything I can to support newly unqualified teachers seeking work.

Another aspect is the pressure that is sometimes on principals from fellow staff members and parents. As a last resort, when all other avenues were exhausted, on only a couple of occasions, I have reluctantly employed a retired (fully qualified primary) teacher. I am inundated with requests from teachers in training, seeking work but these are unqualified personnel. In the past (but not for some years now), I was happy to employ an experienced, secondary-trained teacher, for very short-term work, when the Department of Education encouraged this, as there was a huge shortage of qualified teachers. Teachers will all support the idea of employing qualified teachers only and support the notion of not working with unqualified personnel but when their class is disrupted by having extra pupils, on a very regular basis, without any notice, (because a qualified substitute cannot be found), it is a difficult situation for all concerned.

Using some of the text services to get a qualified teacher into the school, whom you have never met and have had no opportunity to check references, is something I find it difficult to do. If anything happens, as principal, I am the first one who will be asked why I employed somebody I had not thoroughly checked out and didn't know the first thing about? How could I be so irresponsible? Also, in the past, I got some good teachers from this service and others who were a complete disaster. If I have vetted the teacher and believe the teacher is a 'good fit' for our school, then I will be more than happy to give the teacher the opportunity of teaching in our school.

Thousands of principals up and down the country have similar experiences to me and feel equally strongly about the plight of newly qualified teachers seeking work. I have worked so hard to ensure that qualified teachers only work in the school but sometimes it is just impossible to find what isn't there. If illnesses of teachers could be co-ordinated, so that the exact same number of teachers fall ill every week, it would be very easy but this isn't how it works. If we always knew in advance, it would be a much simpler task.

When reading this thread, this is a side that was not apparent so I hope that there will now be a greater understanding of the overall situation. Once again, I would never condone a situation where unqualified personnel are used (for supervision purposes, not teaching) when qualified teachers are readily available.

dambarude

Thanks for that insight Julieho. Principals like yourself who go to extreme lengths to get qualified subs are to be praised. The ones I was complaining about are those who don't try at all to get qualified subs in.

Only just this evening I have heard of two recently retired principals who have been subbing very frequently at a local school, despite the fact that there are plenty of NQTs about. The school principal doesn't appear to be contacting these NQTs at all. Unfortunately everybody isn't as conscientious as you.

noodler

Now I know for a fact that during the better times people with degrees (but without HDips) would regularly sub or supervise when they were needed so are we not all being a little dishonest in the motives here?

It is completely understandable that qualfiied teachers should get jobs first (if they are up to it by the way - nobody here is guaranteed a job just by completing a HDip I hope) but isn't that the main reason for this directive? Rather than the scaremongering going on that unqualified subs are somehow a sign of disrespect on the profession?

dambarude

It's a sign of disrespect at any time because it's basically saying that you don't need a teaching qualification to teach. In other times when qualified teachers weren't available it wasn't any different, it's just the situation is being brought to a head now because of the scarcity of jobs.

If there's ever a shortage of teachers again (unlikely anytime soon:rolleyes:) I'd hope this directive would continue.

noodler

dambarude wrote: »

It's a sign of disrespect at any time because it's basically saying that you don't need a teaching qualification to teach. In other times when qualified teachers weren't available it wasn't any different, it's just the situation is being brought to a head now because of the scarcity of jobs.

If there's ever a shortage of teachers again (unlikely anytime soon:rolleyes:) I'd hope this directive would continue.

Well I certainly don't recall the levels of outrage at the unqualified subs during the boom time - needs must and all but I wish people would be honest and say that the simple logical choice is to hire those with Dips (who are suitable) rather than there being something disgracefully wrong with the unqualified.

What does a principal do if the applicant teacher has a HDip but has been found to be sorely lacking in the classroom?

MilkTheGroup

uriah wrote: »

You are not a qualified teacher. Children have a right to be taught by fully qualified teachers.
If you can do the job now, why bother to qualify as a teacher?

I never said I can do the job of a qualified teacher that would be a ludicrous and illogical statement. I am NOT even attempting to perform the same function of a qualified teacher. I don't teach when I've been in a school I supervise a class for one day because unfortunately they couldn't get a qualified teacher in that day. I am not ignorant. I realise there is a universe in difference between 'teaching' and 'supervising'.

And on a side-note if you were in my position and were unemployed for a year after spending 5 years in college to come out to nothing but the dole queue I'm sure you would not refuse subbing if it was offered to you so spare your indignation and count yourself lucky.

Julieho

dambarude wrote: »

Thanks for that insight Julieho. Principals like yourself who go to extreme lengths to get qualified subs are to be praised. The ones I was complaining about are those who don't try at all to get qualified subs in.

Only just this evening I have heard of two recently retired principals who have been subbing very frequently at a local school, despite the fact that there are plenty of NQTs about. The school principal doesn't appear to be contacting these NQTs at all. Unfortunately everybody isn't as conscientious as you.

Thank you for your kind words dambarude. There will always be those, in every walk of life, who make poor choices. Having said that, I am one of the heretofore, silent majority. All the principals I know would share my experiences. Sometimes, it is easy to look in from the outside and make assumptions about decisions a principal may have made and the reasons behind them. All principals I know go to the longest lengths to do the best they can for everybody, including newly qualified teachers. The people who are most important of all, however, are the pupils.

Ideally, all pupils would always be taught by qualified teachers only. This is my wish and will continue to be. I would have to say however that there are 'qualified' teachers and then there are 'qualified' teachers. (Not all qualified teachers are the same, by a very long stretch, believe me). Not all courses through which teachers qualify are equally stringent in vetting their teachers. I have seen wonderful teachers qualifying through various routes but if you are faced with no option but to employ a 'qualified' teacher who simply cannot control a class, who will leave more problems behind them than they can solve, who doesn't seem to be able to think on her/his feet (even though she or he may have a qualification), then that must also be considered. While there may sometimes be a 'qualified' teacher available, the teacher in question may not be somebody the principal in question can stand over.

Once again, I stress that the vast majority of principals are like me in the lengths they go to to employ qualified substitute teachers but in cases where it might seem that a qualified teacher is available, the teacher is not always available exactly when the principal needs them. Also, not all 'qualified' teachers are the same. The vast majority of qualified teachers are very good, many are excellent but unfortunately a small minority are poor. This may not always be apparent to those looking in from the outside. (Please don't think that by highlighting this, that I am automatically saying that those qualified teachers who are overlooked are poor teachers. Not at all but there can be occasions when this is so).

I say this just to highlight another aspect which may not be considered or apparent when making assumptions about decisions that are sometimes made.

winterlight

I'm in favour of this new directive on only employing qualified teachers to sub. I think employing unqualified people is like saying to the world "anyone can teach." It totally undermines their skills and professionalism.

It can be difficult for principals though. Most out-of-work primary school teachers are either on the dole, or doing a different job while they wait for a full-time position.

A friend of mine (a primary school teacher) secured a full-time permanent position a few years ago. In the few months running up to the start date of her job, she was on the dole, but available for work. Principals were phoning her asking her to sub in local schools. She phoned her local dole office and asked them could she do a day here and a day there subbing. They said it would be too much hassle for them to work it out, and to not take any subbing work, just draw the dole until her full-time job started. That was in 2007, maybe things are different now.

afkasurfjunkie

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

I never said I can do the job of a qualified teacher that would be a ludicrous and illogical statement. I am NOT even attempting to perform the same function of a qualified teacher. I don't teach when I've been in a school I supervise a class for one day because unfortunately they couldn't get a qualified teacher in that day. I am not ignorant. I realise there is a universe in difference between 'teaching' and 'supervising'.

And on a side-note if you were in my position and were unemployed for a year after spending 5 years in college to come out to nothing but the dole queue I'm sure you would not refuse subbing if it was offered to you so spare your indignation and count yourself lucky.

if i was not a teacher and was asked to sub for a day i would turn it down because i cant imagine walking into a room and not having a CLUE what to do for the day.
do you think that you are entitled to a days' wages from the des because you 'supervised' for the day?

if the principal asked you to come in and supervise for the day on a voluntary basis would you be so inclined to do it?
the sooner the dept only pay people who have a teaching council number the better.

star-bright

Just wanting something clarified...MilkTheGroup did someone in the school you subbed in contact you through someone you know or did you go to the school and offer your services to do a job that you are totally unqualified to do?