Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

lawred2 · 22-04-2020 10:24pm

Do the gardai have any water cannons? I'd love to see them used to disperse unwanted gatherings, be they outside the four courts or outside someone's house in an estate.. nevermind issuing cautions or whatever, just send them home soaked, embarrassed and cold.

Pherekydes · 22-04-2020 11:33pm

robindch wrote: »

From a distance, somebody could spray them down with cold, soapy water.

Nuclear powered water cannons. :pac:

magicbastarder · 22-04-2020 11:39pm

I'd say the gardai reckoned those people gathered were hoping they'd be told to disperse, so they could make a huge scene and garner loads of publicity, lots of 'look what the state does to those who threaten their hegemony' sort of manipulation of the incident. And the gardai decided not to give them what they wanted.

The gardai do have form in soft policing in certain circumstances. Look at the different approaches taken by gardai versus the approach of British police to the XR protests.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-04-2020 7:45pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Yep, for the battle of ashtown. The PSNI apparently we're telling them how to fill it with salted iced water so you could get the temp well below zero (as it's the cold rather than the water per se which puts manners on people) and apparently the reaction of the gardai was 'ah jaysus you couldn't do that, it'd be freezing'.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gardai-use-two-water-cannons-to-block-protesters-1.1138812

WTAF was that all about. 2004. Celtic Tiger was roaring away and these crusties were protesting about... what, exactly?

smacl · 30-04-2020 11:48am

Seeing plenty of people fuming about GoD and JW over the last week on social media. There's now even a petition on change.org, https://www.change.org/p/irish-court-services-gemma-o-doherty-does-not-speak-for-us

While they say there's no such thing as bad publicity, I'm beginning to wonder.

magicbastarder · 30-04-2020 1:44pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gardai-use-two-water-cannons-to-block-protesters-1.1138812

WTAF was that all about. 2004. Celtic Tiger was roaring away and these crusties were protesting about... what, exactly?

the actual violence (not that there was an awful lot of it) was not crusties.
i actually accompanied that march for a couple of km - i was in town meeting a photographer friend, to buy a lens off him. he was taking photos of the march.

in general, it was an anti-capitalist protest and most of the genuine protestors were certainly not the ones we could see on the news later - there was a certain contingent of people who would not have known how to spell 'anti-capitalist' who were just there to stir ****, and at the risk of indulging in stereotypes, they were the ones tagging along in their soccer jerseys swigging from cans of cheap beer (the march started early in the afternoon).

Hotblack Desiato · 30-04-2020 4:56pm

Did those flutes not even realise how privileged they were to be living in a wealthy Western country?

Anti-capitalist my hole... :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 01-05-2020 11:54am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did those flutes not even realise how privileged they were to be living in a wealthy Western country?

Anti-capitalist my hole... :rolleyes:

I'm sure those who are 'living' in Direct Provision in a wealthy Western country are counting their blessings - but not as much as the capitalists who are making an absolute fortune out of it.

Rampant capitalism is destroying this planet.
It has created vast inequalities.
So yeah - dismiss those who voice their concerns as "crusties" and remind them of their "privilege".

Ignore the fact that much of the gains we are privileged to enjoy in the West were because time after time "crusties" got out and campaigned for them. Think of that the next time you vote.

magicbastarder · 01-05-2020 12:26pm

i assumed (s)he was joking.

Bannasidhe · 01-05-2020 1:56pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assumed (s)he was joking.

Then s/he should have used the :pac: "I am joking" face ... :rolleyes:
said she in a petulant voice (insert cranky face) :mad:

The whole dismissing protest as 'crusties' and 'usual subjects' in a red fecking flag in my world. Agree with them or don't agree with them but acknowledge that the rights we do have is because people protested.

magicbastarder · 01-05-2020 3:24pm

well, it came across sounding almost identical to my father in law, and you'd not want to do that unless you genuinely were joking.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-05-2020 4:47pm

Capitalism is far from perfect but the alternatives are tyranny and poverty. Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty in China and around the world in the last three decades.

Don't know why you're bringing asylum seekers into it but those who are genuinely fleeing for their lives and not taking the píss are glad to be here and 6 months to a year in direct provision is a very small price to pay for what is literally a new life in a peaceful Western country. It's the complete píss-takers who end up in there year after year with endless appeals because their story doesn't add up.

magicbastarder · 01-05-2020 5:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Capitalism is far from perfect but the alternatives are tyranny and poverty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3252FSW7OC4

Bannasidhe · 01-05-2020 5:16pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Capitalism is far from perfect but the alternatives are tyranny and poverty. Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty in China and around the world in the last three decades.

Don't know why you're bringing asylum seekers into it but those who are genuinely fleeing for their lives and not taking the píss are glad to be here and 6 months to a year in direct provision is a very small price to pay for what is literally a new life in a peaceful Western country. It's the complete píss-takers who end up in there year after year with endless appeals because their story doesn't add up.

Ah, so you are a cheerleader for capitalism - the same capitalism that leaves people die if they cannot afford healthcare/insurance. The same capitalism that created the concept of working poor as people are not paid enough to actually live on. The same capitalism that has stripped the planet - often using child labour - to create disposable products that are in turn poisoning the environment. The same capitalism that has enable a select few to make millions in profit off people who are genuinely fleeing for their lives.

Sure, tyranny and poverty are never ever found in capitalist countries. Tell that to the people of Mayo who didn't want Shell to run a pipe line across their land and the Irish State sent the guards there to protect Shell. After Ray Burke had already given Shell a sweet deal. Tell that to the Sioux in the US who also don't want a pipeline. Tell that to the people of Flint and their poisoned water.
But don't try and tell me that governments enabling corporations to poison the environment against the will of the people isn't tyranny.

Nor try and tell me that working a 40 hr week for the govt decided minimum which is €2 ph less than the living wage isn't state sponsored poverty which benefits capitalism over citizens.
Or the continued lack of investment in local authority housing.
Or the so-called 'self-employed' like couriers.

You might also consider that the freedoms and employment rights you enjoy are due to 'crusties' like the Chartists, the Irish Citizen's Army etc etc getting out and demanding that Capitalists share.

Give me the 'Usual Suspects' over cheerleaders for a status quo anyday. That is how we get societal advances. I'm all for the women who got me the vote, the rebels who got me a republic, the workers who got me employment rights, the mouthy queers who got me equality, the harpies who got me some measure of bodily autonomy.
Capitalism didn't give me any of those things. Those you dismiss as 'Crusties' did. All capitalism is doing is trying monitise them.

smacl · 01-05-2020 5:21pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Capitalism is far from perfect but the alternatives are tyranny and poverty.

Something of a false dichotomy there as most Western European governments are broadly centrist with varying degrees of bias to the left or right. While I'm all in favour of a free market, I think the beneficiaries of that market as well as all those earning a decent wage should be funding the likes of social healthcare, social welfare, education and housing. In my opinion this leads to a kinder society with the principal benefits of both socialism and capitalism. Reading an article on the beeb there yesterday where in the midst of the corona virus pandemic, nurses and other medical staff are losing their jobs en-masse in the US really highlights the problems with excessive capitalism. I don't think the far right or far left have the solution but rather somewhere in between, society needs to work for all its members.

Bannasidhe · 01-05-2020 5:32pm

smacl wrote: »

Something of a false dichotomy there as most Western European governments are broadly centrist with varying degrees of bias to the left or right. While I'm all in favour of a free market, I think the beneficiaries of that market as well as all those earning a decent wage should be funding the likes of social healthcare, social welfare, education and housing. In my opinion this leads to a kinder society with the principal benefits of both socialism and capitalism. Reading an article on the beeb there yesterday where in the midst of the corona virus pandemic, nurses and other medical staff are losing their jobs en-masse in the US really highlights the problems with excessive capitalism. I don't think the far right or far left have the solution but rather somewhere in between, society needs to work for all its members.

Like you, I have no issue with people making a profit. People should be rewarded for their work, creativity, and enterprise. But people should not be exploited so a small few make huge profits. That is my issue.
Nor should the planet be destroyed so the same small few can make even greater profits.

Capitalism needs to be tempered or it runs amok. And over and over history has shown that such tempering only happens when the very people who do most of the work but get least of the profits protest.

magicbastarder · 01-05-2020 5:48pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did those flutes not even realise how privileged they were to be living in a wealthy Western country?

Anti-capitalist my hole... :rolleyes:

you may not have read the post you were replying to. i was saying that those who created trouble at ashtown were *not* anticapitalists, but just troublemakers looking for trouble.

smacl · 01-05-2020 5:51pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Capitalism needs to be tempered or it runs amok. And over and over history has shown that such tempering only happens when the very people who do most of the work but get least of the profits protest.

Agreed. We also have a real issue with consumerism driven by capitalism and all its attendant waste. Having come from a generation that thrived on re-use, repair and re-purpose to where we are now congratulating ourselves on the ability to recycle is a sad joke. Not just one use plastic but obsolescence by design should be banned outright. We really do píss away frightening amounts of non-renewable resources for what is at best marginal value and more realistically buying a con.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-05-2020 8:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

you may not have read the post you were replying to. i was saying that those who created trouble at ashtown were *not* anticapitalists, but just troublemakers looking for trouble.

Yes I was aware of that, but there wouldn't have been a demonstration for the knuckle-draggers to tag onto if it wasn't for the anticapitalists.

magicbastarder · 01-05-2020 8:40pm

are you saying there's no aspect of capitalism that's negative enough to be worth protesting about?

Hotblack Desiato · 01-05-2020 8:53pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah, so you are a cheerleader for capitalism - the same capitalism that leaves people die if they cannot afford healthcare/insurance. The same capitalism that created the concept of working poor as people are not paid enough to actually live on. The same capitalism that has stripped the planet - often using child labour - to create disposable products that are in turn poisoning the environment. The same capitalism that has enable a select few to make millions in profit off people who are genuinely fleeing for their lives.

DIdn't I say that capitalism was far from perfect? And you are needlessly personalising the discussion with the word "cheerleader".

Very very few if any people are in favour of completely unfettered free-market capitalism - not even the Republicans in the US, who supported bailing out banks and car makers, and claim to be against 'big government' while diverting a huge chunk of their nation's resources into the military.

But these demonstrators didn't say they were against unrestrained capitalism, or wanted a more socially aware capitalism - they said they were anti-capitalism, full stop.

That means no free enterprise, and heavily restricted or no private property rights - everywhere this has been tried it has had to be propped up by state terror and has led to poverty. It is a basic right to be able to choose your own work and to profit from your own labour.

Sure, tyranny and poverty are never ever found in capitalist countries.

Strawman.

Tell that to the people of Mayo who didn't want Shell to run a pipe line across their land and the Irish State sent the guards there to protect Shell. After Ray Burke had already given Shell a sweet deal.

A very tired and worn-out left wing trope, this. Shell got the same "deal" every other oil company got - because, Kinsale gas excepted, all of them who piled into exploration in our waters in the 70s lost their shirts and no exploration was happening. The Irish government decided that a smaller percentage of something was better than a big percentage of nothing. No government since has seen fit to change this policy, either.
A few people in Mayo have no right to stop a project of national importance, same with pylon protestors.
Gardai were only there because of thugs with no respect for law or property.

Tell that to the Sioux in the US who also don't want a pipeline. Tell that to the people of Flint and their poisoned water.

What's Flint got to do with capitalism? A city authority fcuked up.

But don't try and tell me that governments enabling corporations to poison the environment against the will of the people isn't tyranny.

Nor try and tell me that working a 40 hr week for the govt decided minimum which is €2 ph less than the living wage isn't state sponsored poverty which benefits capitalism over citizens.
Or the continued lack of investment in local authority housing.
Or the so-called 'self-employed' like couriers.

None of these are arguments against capitalism, they are arguments for better regulated capitalism and for social democracy, and I support all of the above.

You might also consider that the freedoms and employment rights you enjoy are due to 'crusties' like the Chartists, the Irish Citizen's Army etc etc getting out and demanding that Capitalists share.

Oh come on. These guys don't have a coherent politcial aim and don't have the interests of society as a whole in mind. They're in the main bored kids who want to cause trouble, along with a few Marxist-Leninsit true believers, ghod love them.

Give me the 'Usual Suspects' over cheerleaders for a status quo anyday. That is how we get societal advances. I'm all for the women who got me the vote, the rebels who got me a republic, the workers who got me employment rights, the mouthy queers who got me equality, the harpies who got me some measure of bodily autonomy.
Capitalism didn't give me any of those things. Those you dismiss as 'Crusties' did. All capitalism is doing is trying monitise them.

Status quo? I'm a Social Democrat voter who wants significant change to the status quo. But if you say to me you want to abolish capitalism, I'll tell you to feck right off! A social democracy is not possible without capitalism.

Odhinn · 01-05-2020 10:09pm

Can we agree that the problem is with unbridled capitalism?

magicbastarder · 02-05-2020 12:03am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But these demonstrators didn't say they were against unrestrained capitalism, or wanted a more socially aware capitalism - they said they were anti-capitalism, full stop.

no, *i* called them anti-capitalist. i spent more time defining them by who they weren't, than by who they were, and i was clear on that.
there was no full stop, or anything approaching that. the actual phrase was 'in general, it was an anti-capitalist protest'.
the irish times article you linked to makes no mention whatsoever about their aims.
you appear to be tilting at windmills.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-05-2020 2:25am

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, *i* called them anti-capitalist. i spent more time defining them by who they weren't, than by who they were, and i was clear on that.
there was no full stop, or anything approaching that. the actual phrase was 'in general, it was an anti-capitalist protest'.
the irish times article you linked to makes no mention whatsoever about their aims.
you appear to be tilting at windmills.

The bold bit... if you are anti-capitalist you want to destroy capitalism and replace it with some sort of Marxist system.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-05-2020 2:42am

East Germany was great, everyone had a job, everyone had childcare, everyone had to live behind a wall to keep them in....

smacl · 02-05-2020 10:30am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The bold bit... if you are anti-capitalist you want to destroy capitalism and replace it with some sort of Marxist system.

Not quite. If you're anti-capitalist you want capitalism replaced with different imperatives for organising and running society but that doesn't imply Marxism. I think George Monbiot's narrative regarding new politics has a lot of merit here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2SxP4PANr4

The ideas of a more directly representative democracy and areas of common wealth that cannot be passed into private ownership are excellent. I also strongly agree with his idea that capitalism and striving towards continuous economic growth runs contrary to stabilizing our climate and the prosperity of the planet as a whole, as described below;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuSpqc-uqg

Capitalism, in my opinion, clearly needs to be restricted to activities that also benefit society and are sustainable rather than those that solely benefit the shareholder.

magicbastarder · 02-05-2020 10:38am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The bold bit... if you are anti-capitalist you want to destroy capitalism and replace it with some sort of Marxist system.

That's a really really really wide brush you're wielding. Is it not heavy?

Bannasidhe · 02-05-2020 12:08pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

DIdn't I say that capitalism was far from perfect? And you are needlessly personalising the discussion with the word "cheerleader".

Very very few if any people are in favour of completely unfettered free-market capitalism - not even the Republicans in the US, who supported bailing out banks and car makers, and claim to be against 'big government' while diverting a huge chunk of their nation's resources into the military.

But these demonstrators didn't say they were against unrestrained capitalism, or wanted a more socially aware capitalism - they said they were anti-capitalism, full stop.

That means no free enterprise, and heavily restricted or no private property rights - everywhere this has been tried it has had to be propped up by state terror and has led to poverty. It is a basic right to be able to choose your own work and to profit from your own labour.

Strawman.

A very tired and worn-out left wing trope, this. Shell got the same "deal" every other oil company got - because, Kinsale gas excepted, all of them who piled into exploration in our waters in the 70s lost their shirts and no exploration was happening. The Irish government decided that a smaller percentage of something was better than a big percentage of nothing. No government since has seen fit to change this policy, either.
A few people in Mayo have no right to stop a project of national importance, same with pylon protestors.
Gardai were only there because of thugs with no respect for law or property.

What's Flint got to do with capitalism? A city authority fcuked up.

None of these are arguments against capitalism, they are arguments for better regulated capitalism and for social democracy, and I support all of the above.

Oh come on. These guys don't have a coherent politcial aim and don't have the interests of society as a whole in mind. They're in the main bored kids who want to cause trouble, along with a few Marxist-Leninsit true believers, ghod love them.

Status quo? I'm a Social Democrat voter who wants significant change to the status quo. But if you say to me you want to abolish capitalism, I'll tell you to feck right off! A social democracy is not possible without capitalism.

The term "cheerleader" is exactly the word to describe someone who spouts a reactionary defence of their favourite team/religion/ideology that consists entirely of an attack on those who criticize said team/religion/ideology. I could have used less kinder terms but chose not to as I am not actually attacking anyone.

It doesn't have to be 'unfettered' to be exploitative. A minimum wage rate set below the living wage rate is both fettered (govt sets a minimum) and exploitation - workers are in poverty as they are not paid enough to live on.
So away with your unfettered hyperbole.

You have absolutely no idea what the people involved know/want/believe - nor does it seem you are interested in anything more than throwing around dismissive comments like "bored kids" or worse - lazy alt right tropes like "Marxist-Leninsit true believers".

I'll be honest, I expected more nuance and research from you. But all I have read so far leads me to conclude that you are so locked in this dated left/right mindset that you cannot see the irony of frothing about Marxism being the only alternative to the system of capitalism so many citizen currently do not enjoy while also saying you vote Social Democrat.
Perhaps Shorthall and Murphy's quite damning criticisms of capitalism passed you by?

Hotblack Desiato · 02-05-2020 5:30pm

I don't think we differ very much in our outlook on social policy, really. It seems the bone of contention is my use of a single word....

Capitalism has no role in setting a minimum wage, that's up to government, and I agree it's too low. Rents are a ridiculous level also which causes lots of people to struggle financially while a small cohort are massively enriched, throw HAP into the mix and we're channeling tax money directly into landlords' pockets when we should be building lots of social and affordable-rent housing.

I'm not aware of Shortall and Murphy saying they want to abolish capitalism (Paul Murphy style) or smash the state (SF style). They can be as critical as they like about the current system, I'm critical enough of it myself, but no social progress is possible without private enterprise.

I'm derisive of those protestors because they have no coherent movement, no workable policy. They were protesting at an EU meeting, when membership of the EU is the single most important factor in dragging this country out of poverty and social conservatism. It makes no sense whatsoever especially as most of the things they profess to dislike are domestic policy matters for the Irish government to decide, nothing to do with the EU.

Bannasidhe · 02-05-2020 7:23pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I don't think we differ very much in our outlook on social policy, really. It seems the bone of contention is my use of a single word....

Capitalism has no role in setting a minimum wage, that's up to government, and I agree it's too low. Rents are a ridiculous level also which causes lots of people to struggle financially while a small cohort are massively enriched, throw HAP into the mix and we're channeling tax money directly into landlords' pockets when we should be building lots of social and affordable-rent housing.

I'm not aware of Shortall and Murphy saying they want to abolish capitalism (Paul Murphy style) or smash the state (SF style). They can be as critical as they like about the current system, I'm critical enough of it myself, but no social progress is possible without private enterprise.

I'm derisive of those protestors because they have no coherent movement, no workable policy. They were protesting at an EU meeting, when membership of the EU is the single most important factor in dragging this country out of poverty and social conservatism. It makes no sense whatsoever especially as most of the things they profess to dislike are domestic policy matters for the Irish government to decide, nothing to do with the EU.

We live in a country dominated by neo-liberal economics - capitalism sets the agenda for government policy. Irish governments consistently place the economy over the welfare of society - ironically this has been brought into sharp focus now as government scrambles to adopt what are essentially socialist policies to get us through the current crises - and are making an absolute dogs dinner of it.

Where we profoundly differ is I am not derisive of any protest - even those I profoundly disagree with or think are ridiculous - because challenging the dominant political narrative is, imo, vital to understanding that narrative and how it governs our lives.
Even that Cockwomble Waters and his sidekick Bigot Biatch have their role to play. They show how things can go if we are apathetic and unthinking. If we, as a society, do not engage with the narrative and insist on the society we want then we will get the society others want. Haven't we had enough of that already in Holier than Thou Ireland?

Far too often it's dismissed as 'usual suspects' and 'bored kids' - well, the usual suspects trope has been used for centuries to dismiss all those who question - but it was also the usual suspects who brought about change, and those bored kids are going to inherit our mess (debts and destroyed environment being the top two..) so better they are there and bored but at least realising that you can fight city hall then sat on a sofa consuming like a good unthinking so-called productive member of the capitalist society.

"Anti-Capitalist" is short-hand. Fits easy onto placard. Like all political slogans. The reality is far more nuanced. What is important is that some of those 'bored kids' are thinking about it, working out what it means, what is acceptable to them, what aspects work and what doesn't.

How on Earth can that be a bad thing?

I say this as someone who as a bored teenager agreed to hand out leaflets for a cause. I had a crash course in the whys and wherefore on route from my privileged place as a student in an art college to my pitch in Cork's city centre. That day opened my eyes and changed me forever.
It was 1983.
The leaflets were pro-choice.
I was called far far worse than 'usual suspect'.
Not for one second did I ever stop advocating/ campaigning/ lobbying/leafleting for the 8th to be Repealed.

I have stood beside Angela Y Davis, and opposed to Louis Farrakhan on the steps of Hackney Town Hall.
I walked in Cork's Paddy's Day Parade to show NY and the AOH that being Gay and Irish is possible.
I organised protests against Thatcher's Clause 28.

All because 30+ years ago I was a bored kid who when asked to give out leaflets by a woman I fancied agreed - and I asked her to explain to me what this whole abortion referendum lark was about.

Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

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