Unions call to not pay mortgages

roy rodgers

Can we have a poll on this to see how many that will default????

HellFireClub

bluewolf wrote: »

What in god's name are you talking about?
He said if you can't afford to buy in dublin, then don't. End of.
It has nothing to do with corruption or whatever else you're ranting about

This is what drives me mad about this country. This smug toleration of any situation, no matter what the social consequences, no matter how many people are put out by a bad decision or a set of bad decisions, the decision is the decision, so we all must accept it. To say otherwise, as we can see, is "ranting"...

The madness of what you are clearly standing behind in terms of your perspective, is that if you cannot buy in Dublin, then buy down the sticks, in a place that is alien to you...

This is the same mentality that has thousands of unoccupied ghost estates littered all over the country, on the incorrect assumption that we'll all move down the country! And who do you think is picking up the tab for that now???? Yeah, YOU THE TAXPAYER!

jester77

This is pure and utter nonsense, you signed a contract, you stick to it.

No was forced to sign these contracts. I bet you most people had a smug smile on their faces when they took out these mortgages and got their keys. These people would have sat down and calculated how much they could afford to pay and were happy to do so... otherwise they would not have signed the contract.

I can guarantee that if their house/apartment was worth more than what they initially paid for it they would not be complaining about their monthly repayments. So what if the house is worth less than what was paid for it, this has no bearing on the monthly repayments. They were happy with the initial price and with what they are paying back. Typical Irish whoorism to now try and get that reduced at the expense of others

southsiderosie

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

Because nobody wanted to live in Dublin until recently so it was relatively cheap. Nobody wanted to live in Soho in New York or Chueca in Madrid 20 years ago, so it was cheap. Since these places have become popular, especially with young professionals, they have also become more expensive. That's how real estate markets work.

HellFireClub wrote: »

In a normal society where we are not all trying to acquire property and climb all over each others backs, it is normal for people to want to enjoy some sort of security of tenure. I aspire to live in a society where hard work is rewarded and if I wish to work hard to be able to live in a modest house with my family, then yes, I do believe this is my right.

What do you mean a 'normal society'? There are plenty of people in Europe and the US who rent, and even if they own, they spend most of their lives in an apartment. This has little to do with rewarding hard work and everything to do with living within your means.

Also, most landlords love having long-term tenants (if they are clean and don't cause a lot of problems) because looking for new tenants is a pain in the hole.

HellFireClub wrote: »

But before the downturn, you could be extremely hardworking and dilligent, but if you wanted to buy a house, you had to move down the country...

If you wanted to rent all of your life, of course you weren't "FORCED", to buy anywhere else.

My point AGAIN, is that it is inherently human to want to have security or tenure and the only way to be able to provide for that in a country as backward and defective as this, is to buy your own house.

If you want to live a life of rolling one year lease agreements, and live like the Littlest Hobo, then of course nobody is forcing you to do anything!

However if you are serious about what you are at and you want to have a bit of security for you and your family that you care about, you are going to want to buy a house and a place that you can call your own.

Some say this is being obsessed with property, I think it's the most human thing any person could do.

Oh, please. Nobody 'has' to buy a house, or live like a 'little hobo'. I spent the first 12 years of my life living in a rented apartment with my parents, my aunt, two brothers and one bathroom. My parents waited to buy a place until they knew they would not be throwing the family into financial risk to do so, and if that meant we had to share our back garden, then so be it. Incidentally, they bought in an area that twenty years ago was less desirable; I will probably never be able to afford a house like theirs in that neighborhood today, but such is life.

Yes people went crazy in Ireland (and Miami and Las Vegas) from 2002-2008, but rationally should people have looked at that craziness and said, "hey, I better get on that!" or "wow, this will all end in tears, and I will just pay (overinflated) rent for now". There are quite a lot of people who did the latter, and we were all working from the same publicly available set of information.

coffee_cake

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is what drives me mad about this country. This smug toleration of any situation, no matter what the social consequences, no matter how many people are put out by a bad decision or a set of bad decisions, the decision is the decision, so we all must accept it. To say otherwise, as we can see, is "ranting"...


The madness of what you are clearly standing behind in terms of your perspective, is that if you cannot buy in Dublin, then buy down the sticks, in a place that is alien to you...

This is the same mentality that has thousands of unoccupied ghost estates littered all over the country, on the incorrect assumption that we'll all move down the country! And who do you think is picking up the tab for that now???? Yeah, YOU THE TAXPAYER!

You're right, you're not ranting at all. My mistake...

I am not being "smugly tolerant", I am explaining what his post clearly said because you seemed to have trouble grasping it.
I'm not saying buy "down the sticks" (:rolleyes:) I'm saying live with what you can afford, whether it be renting or buying elsewhere. You are not "entitled" to buy a house in a popular and densely populated area just because you have a personal aversion to renting and just because all your friends live there.

andrew

HellFireClub wrote: »

So what I'm reading there, is that you accept that the kind of systemic and collective corruption that led to banking policies and public taxation policies, placing property investors in a situation whereby the state favoured them as buyers of property instead of people who wanted to buy to live in, as opposed to those who were buying to speculate, that it is wrong to accept that these policies have been the ruination of this state, and that by extension, everyone should just accept that due to corruption and greed, that if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin, due to all of the above, that you should just accept this and buy in Drogheda, an absolute destitute dump of a town which by the way is at least 1 hour away from Dublin...

This is the problem with the country, the acceptance of corruption and the toleration of quack economics that HAS BEEN PROVEN TO RUIN AN ECONOMY. Then if you oppose quack economics and aspire to something more durable that would serve society, you get accused of buying beyond what you could afford!

And by the way, I'm completely unaffected by this collapse in property prices, I bought one home a good few years ago that I lived in, and I sold one home that I lived in... So I'm not defending my own actions on here.

But as far as I'm concerned, any person who bought a property in good faith in the boom to live in, has absolutely nothing to answer for, you were failed by the state.

I don't think anyone denies that the property bubble was caused, in part, by poor economic policy, in particular poorly crafted tax incentives, in particular the abolition of the property tax. However, I don't know of any government policy which specifically incentivised the purchase of a second home for investment purposes. The only people doing so were people who saw a business opportunity and went for it, and I don't see how you can begrudge these people, given there was a booming rental market at the time.

Undoubtedly, this raised the price of housing, and made it difficult for some people to buy a home in which to live. The thing is, a 'modest home close to friends' is a privilage. Most people are lucky to aquire such a thing. That council houses are allocated in terms of where you currently live does not imply that having a house near to family is a right. It's laughable that you think that people shouldn't have to live in Drogheda because it's a WHOLE HOUR from dublin, and that the taxpayers should cater to their desire not to live there. Further, the ability to buy a home is not a right either; many people can and do rent homes. People who find themselves with an expensive mortgage have only themselves to blame, and it's sickening to see people claim that they're now morally justified in renaging on a loan they took out due to an overblown sense of entitlement in the first place. It's interestng, I think, to see how quick people are to call bankers reckless and greedy on this forum, while at the same time advocating the exact same kind of recklessness and greed in the general population.

weldoninhio

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is what drives me mad about this country. This smug toleration of any situation, no matter what the social consequences, no matter how many people are put out by a bad decision or a set of bad decisions, the decision is the decision, so we all must accept it. To say otherwise, as we can see, is "ranting"...

The madness of what you are clearly standing behind in terms of your perspective, is that if you cannot buy in Dublin, then buy down the sticks, in a place that is alien to you...

This is the same mentality that has thousands of unoccupied ghost estates littered all over the country, on the incorrect assumption that we'll all move down the country! And who do you think is picking up the tab for that now???? Yeah, YOU THE TAXPAYER!

I'm beginning to think you are just trolling now. "a place that is alien to you"?? We're talking Mountrath or Kinnegad or Maynooth or Drogheda, not outer Mongolia!!

HellFireClub

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The core issue I believe, isn't that the government exercised it's right to regulate the property market. The problem is who it regulated the market on behalf of. It is clear now that it was "yes sir no sir three bags full sir", for the property speculator and it was, "if you can't afford it, then move down to the bog" for people who wanted to buy to live...

This policy carried social consequences, people disconnected from the support of their families, people spending 2-4 hours a day going off their heads commuting and stuck in traffic, etc.

meglome

baaaa wrote: »

Now we're getting somewhere.
Some people say it is the banks fault- for flooding the market with cheap,lax credit thus inflating prices temporarily and ultimately crashing it long -term.

So if I get the logic since we all have access to a lot of chocolate we should all be fat?

southsiderosie

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is what drives me mad about this country. This smug toleration of any situation, no matter what the social consequences, no matter how many people are put out by a bad decision or a set of bad decisions, the decision is the decision, so we all must accept it. To say otherwise, as we can see, is "ranting"...

The madness of what you are clearly standing behind in terms of your perspective, is that if you cannot buy in Dublin, then buy down the sticks, in a place that is alien to you...

This is the same mentality that has thousands of unoccupied ghost estates littered all over the country, on the incorrect assumption that we'll all move down the country! And who do you think is picking up the tab for that now???? Yeah, YOU THE TAXPAYER!

OK, I'm not trying to be smart here, but do you understand how real estate markets work? It is pretty normal - regardless of the country - for kids to be priced out of their parents' neighborhoods.

Perhaps Ireland was economically backwards for so long that this was never an issue for people? Because I cannot think of one major city where this is not the case, even in places that did not have the kind of spectacular boom and bust cycle as Ireland did.

baaaa

jester77 wrote: »

This is pure and utter nonsense, you signed a contract, you stick to it.

:DLove how simple things are for some people.

HellFireClub

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you are just trolling now. "a place that is alien to you"?? We're talking Mountrath or Kinnegad or Maynooth or Drogheda, not outer Mongolia!!

Kinnegad: 1 hour from Dublin

Drogheda: 1 Hour from Dublin

You try doing these trips at 7/8 in the morning and see long you will go at that for.

Say you have the audacity to want to go for a pint with your mates in Clondalkin, some taxi fare you'll get handed at the end of your night for your neck of wanting to go for a pint with your mates.

Godge

HellFireClub wrote: »

This is what drives me mad about this country. This smug toleration of any situation, no matter what the social consequences, no matter how many people are put out by a bad decision or a set of bad decisions, the decision is the decision, so we all must accept it. To say otherwise, as we can see, is "ranting"...

The madness of what you are clearly standing behind in terms of your perspective, is that if you cannot buy in Dublin, then buy down the sticks, in a place that is alien to you...

This is the same mentality that has thousands of unoccupied ghost estates littered all over the country, on the incorrect assumption that we'll all move down the country! And who do you think is picking up the tab for that now???? Yeah, YOU THE TAXPAYER!

Wrong again in relation to your last point, we just built too many houses all over the country, full stop, there are ghost estates in parts of Dublin.

Explain to me again how everyone who wants to buy in a nice leafy South Dublin suburb should be allowed to buy there. I would love to move back to the nice leafy South Dublin suburb I grew up in. Is the taxpayer willing to buy my house off me for what I paid for it and give me the house I want in South Dublin for free or a reasonable mortgage? Because that is what you are looking for for those who are already living there and why should they get it and not me.

coffee_cake

HellFireClub wrote: »

Kinnegad: 1 hour from Dublin

Drogheda: 1 Hour from Dublin

You try doing these trips at 7/8 in the morning and see long you will go at that for.

Say you have the audacity to want to go for a pint with your mates in Clondalkin, some taxi fare you'll get handed at the end of your night for your neck of wanting to go for a pint with your mates.

None of this has anything to do with feeling entitled to buy a house next door to your friends. None of it.

Taxi fares and going out drinking, god in heaven, do you want the state to pay for that too

jester77

baaaa wrote: »

:DLove how simple things are for some people.

How else should it be?

If you don't pay your ESB bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your phone bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your car loan, what happens?

See, it actually is simple :rolleyes:

southsiderosie

HellFireClub wrote: »

Kinnegad: 1 hour from Dublin

Drogheda: 1 Hour from Dublin

You try doing these trips at 7/8 in the morning and see long you will go at that for.

Say you have the audacity to want to go for a pint with your mates in Clondalkin, some taxi fare you'll get handed at the end of your night for your neck of wanting to go for a pint with your mates.

What do you think people in cities all over the world do?

BTW, if Ireland had at least used some of the boom/EU money to majorly upgrade its public transport system, this would be less of an issue.

maximoose

baaaa wrote: »

:DLove how simple things are for some people.

I love how simple people are. This thread is great light reading for the f*cking nonsense you are spouting.

danbohan

Bambi wrote: »

That would be New York, New York where rents are controlled and stabilized by the state?

People had a choice between renting a property that was massively overpriced or buying a property that was massively overpriced. Unsurprisingly they chose the latter.

Unsurprisingly they chose the latter

i suppose taking that logic forward its not really surprising the same people now want their neighbours to pay half their mortgages

weldoninhio

HellFireClub wrote: »

Kinnegad: 1 hour from Dublin

Drogheda: 1 Hour from Dublin

You try doing these trips at 7/8 in the morning and see long you will go at that for.

Say you have the audacity to want to go for a pint with your mates in Clondalkin, some taxi fare you'll get handed at the end of your night for your neck of wanting to go for a pint with your mates.

Drogheda is at max 40 mins from Dublin. If you wanna go meet friends for a pint you make arrangements, or (shock, horror!!) make new friends!! People have been doing this for centuries!!

baaaa

jester77 wrote: »

How else should it be?

If you don't pay your ESB bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your phone bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your car loan, what happens?

See, it actually is simple :rolleyes:

Exactly,ESB and Bord Gais have some kind of debt forgiveness going on don't they?

dvpower

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The fact that we have a planning process is regulation of the housing market, so too is buildings standards and stamp duties and interest rate policy (if we still had control of it).
I don't think anyone should be worried about government regulation of the housing market per se. It all depends on what kind of regulation they are involved in.

If they had raised stamp duty a few years ago, we might have avoided the worst of the bubble.

HellFireClub

weldoninhio wrote: »

Drogheda is at max 40 mins from Dublin. If you wanna go meet friends for a pint you make arrangements, or (shock, horror!!) make new friends!! People have been doing this for centuries!!

You are wrong there again. This is the first time in the many generations that my family have been living in Dublin, that a whole generation of house buyers had to move down to the country if they wanted to buy a property.

If you believe your argument is so solid, tell us what purpose has been served by this policy of either forcing people into paying stupid rents in Dublin or pushing the same people down into the country to buy???

Nobody benefits here! Look at all the ghost estate's that the best and the brightest thought were going to be occupied by more and more people being displaced out of Dublin or else migrant workers???

Who is occupying those estates now?!?

ionapaul

My ex-landlord bought the house we're renting in Dublin for his PPR a few years ago for €1.2m, it was valued earlier in the year at €650K and right now a similar one to it in the estate is on sale for €600K (and hasn't sold yet, so who knows the current market value). He declared bankruptcy in Britain at the start of last month, and I can't say I blame him, it was probably the smart thing to do in his circumstance, he would probably never get out from the debt he had incurred (foolishly, obviously) and needed to get on with his life. Since he was declared bankrupt in England and the receiver is employed by this bank, I've no idea of who ultimately foots the bill for the giant loss, I'm guessing it will be Irish taxpayers though! Even if that is the case, I'd do the same as him if I had to, for my own and my family's sake...

I think bankruptcy in Ireland needs to be reformed ASAP (as Alan Shatter has indicated) and many people labouring under such burdens should be allowed to go bankrupt, lose the home and other assets they currently have, and start again under the conditions set down in the new bankruptcy act. Firesales need to begin soon, NAMA should stop trying to put an artificial floor under the market, that effort is doomed to fail, low property prices is good for the country.

Our previous government's tying of the taxpayer, the banks and the failed property developers together in a mortal embrace will surely go down as the most ruinous decision ever by Irish politicians, it was insane at the time and has just gotten worse and worse with each passing month. Of course, those who made the decisions and those who benefit won't suffer much of the pain...

weldoninhio

HellFireClub wrote: »

You are wrong there again. This is the first time in the many generations that my family have been living in Dublin, that a whole generation of house buyers had to move down to the country if they wanted to buy a property.

If you believe your argument is so solid, tell us what purpose has been served by this policy of either forcing people into paying stupid rents in Dublin or pushing the same people down into the country to buy???

Nobody benefits here! Look at all the ghost estate's that the best and the brightest thought were going to be occupied by more and more people being displaced out of Dublin or else migrant workers???

Who is occupying those estates now?!?

What policy are you talking about?? And whos policy was it?? Show me a link to this policy and i'll read it and get back to you.

What about the ghost estates IN Dublin?? Who's occupying them now??

CiaranC

jester77 wrote: »

How else should it be?

If you don't pay your ESB bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your phone bill, what happens?
If you don't pay your car loan, what happens?

See, it actually is simple :rolleyes:

If your a bank board member who led your bank into bankruptcy, what happens?
If you are a senior bondholder who lost gambling on the markets, what happens?
If you are a corrupt politician whos incompetence bankrupted the country, what happens?

Nothing, thats what. The only ones being held to account for all this "personal responsibility" are the poor saps at the bottom of the food chain. A bit of context is required.

Jocker

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but surely it's in your best interests to pay back money you borrowed, rather than simply steal it?

Wake up for God sake. your money is being stolen from YOU by these criminals!

Jocker

Caoimhín wrote: »

That is fair, reasonable and mature of you.

While I have some sympathy for those who are out of work, especially families who are struggling with large loans, it is astonishing the amount of people who want the banks/tax payers to reduce the mortgage to what the house is currently valued at. This is regardless of their ability to pay.

And why would that be? maybe because they were ripped off in the first place?

southsiderosie

CiaranC wrote: »

If your a bank board member who led your bank into bankruptcy, what happens?

You become unemployed.

CiaranC wrote: »

If you are a senior bondholder who lost gambling on the markets, what happens?

You lose your money.

CiaranC wrote: »

If you are a corrupt politician whos incompetence bankrupted the country, what happens?

You get to stay because your father fixed the road voted out of office.

CiaranC wrote: »

Nothing, thats what. The only ones being held to account for all this "personal responsibility" are the poor saps at the bottom of the food chain. A bit of context is required.

Indeed.

maggy_thatcher

CiaranC wrote: »

If your a bank board member who led your bank into bankruptcy, what happens?

They lose control of their bank, as it's now in state ownership? How many of the senior board members of the banks are still in their board positions anyway?

CiaranC wrote: »

If you are a senior bondholder who lost gambling on the markets, what happens?

If you mean their shares, these are practically worthless - so they can't get their money back. If you mean money that they lent the bank to allow it to operate - that was provided at a very low interest rate under the condition that it was guaranteed. That's why legally it comes back to them.

CiaranC wrote: »

If you are a corrupt politician whos incompetence bankrupted the country, what happens?

You don't vote them in again, so they lose their job? Except of course we do have the pay-off scheme, but there's nothing much we can do about that now except stop it in future...

HellFireClub

weldoninhio wrote: »

What policy are you talking about?? And whos policy was it?? Show me a link to this policy and i'll read it and get back to you.

What about the ghost estates IN Dublin?? Who's occupying them now??

The policy in your head that says that you don't want to be homeless and if you don't qualify for social housing, that says to you, (assuming you don't want to be living on the streets), that you have to either rent somewhere to live or else buy somewhere to live.

To all the smug folks on here with their, "if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin then move down the bog, I didn't buy in the boom amn't I just brilliant!" attitude, all I'm saying is that nobody has gained by that policy, absolutely nobody.

And for the avoidance of doubt for the smug brigade, I owned a house that I lived in pre-boom and sold it in the middle of the boom so I've no personal angle on this with regard to people losing money on property, as this didn't happen to me luckily enough.

I just think that this child like attitude we have in this country now that sneers at people who were only trying to put a roof over their heads and enjoy a bit of security of tenure, just because some people on here now are very smug because they were too mean to ever buy a property and want to pay rent all their lives, it doesn't follow that folks who bought a house and are now stuck in negative equity, did anything wrong.

The reason they are bamboozled now, in my opinion, is completely down to investors being allowed to run amok in the Irish property market. We should never tell people that they should not aspire to do their best, to work hard and to secure a house for themselves.

Only in Ireland would you be treated like some kind of a celebrity wanna be, to have the audacity to wish to live in the county that you were born in, where you have family and connections and roots. It's the same mentality that had property prices being bumped up by 50K if there were anything that resembled a mountain or a nice view in front of it.