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Unions call to not pay mortgages

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    #242
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I just think that this child like attitude we have in this country now that sneers at people who were only trying to put a roof over their heads and enjoy a bit of security of tenure, just because some people on here now are very smug because they were too mean to ever buy a property and want to pay rent all their lives, it doesn't follow that folks who bought a house and are now stuck in negative equity, did anything wrong.

    I don't have a problem with people stuck in negative equity. My problem is that many of them want tax money to go towards relieving their mortgage burden.

    That said, it shouldn't be a burden forever. They should be allowed to default/declare personal bankruptcy, and then become whole again after five years.
    HellFireClub wrote: »
    The reason they are bamboozled now, in my opinion, is completely down to investors being allowed to run amok in the Irish property market. We should never tell people that they should not aspire to do their best, to work hard and to secure a house for themselves.

    I still fail to see what that has to do with buying overpriced housing.
    HellFireClub wrote: »
    Only in Ireland would you be treated like some kind of a celebrity wanna be, to have the audacity to wish to live in the county that you were born in, where you have family and connections and roots. It's the same mentality that had property prices being bumped up by 50K if there were anything that resembled a mountain or a nice view in front of it.

    Have you ever left Ireland?

    Seriously, your posts are verging on the edge of hysteria.


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    #243
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    The policy in your head that says that you don't want to be homeless and if you don't qualify for social housing, that says to you, (assuming you don't want to be living on the streets), that you have to either rent somewhere to live or else buy somewhere to live.

    To all the smug folks on here with their, "if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin then move down the bog, I didn't buy in the boom amn't I just brilliant!" attitude, all I'm saying is that nobody has gained by that policy, absolutely nobody.

    And for the avoidance of doubt for the smug brigade, I owned a house that I lived in pre-boom and sold it in the middle of the boom so I've no personal angle on this with regard to people losing money on property, as this didn't happen to me luckily enough.

    I just think that this child like attitude we have in this country now that sneers at people who were only trying to put a roof over their heads and enjoy a bit of security of tenure, just because some people on here now are very smug because they were too mean to ever buy a property and want to pay rent all their lives, it doesn't follow that folks who bought a house and are now stuck in negative equity, did anything wrong.

    The reason they are bamboozled now, in my opinion, is completely down to investors being allowed to run amok in the Irish property market. We should never tell people that they should not aspire to do their best, to work hard and to secure a house for themselves.

    Only in Ireland would you be treated like some kind of a celebrity wanna be, to have the audacity to wish to live in the county that you were born in, where you have family and connections and roots. It's the same mentality that had property prices being bumped up by 50K if there were anything that resembled a mountain or a nice view in front of it.

    Things that go on inside your head aren't policy!?! Its basic maths, taught from 1st class onwards. If you cannot afford something, don't buy it. Where did all of these "victims" live before the boom??

    If you can't afford to buy during the boom, rent in Dublin if you really want to stay there. Your attitude absolutly stinks and its the likes of this attitude that makes people hate the smug Dubs, not everywhere outside of The Pale is a bog.

    Also, as a matter of interest, your pre-boom house that you sold mid-boom. Did you sell that at its actually value price? Or did you sell it at boom prices?? You as the seller had the choice as to what price you sold it for, did you also vet potential buyers to see if they had "connections" in the area, and weren't some blow-ins trying to rob a salt of the earth Dubs homestead!?!?

    Actually, you've swayed me, i wanna live here, http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=575320 , I can't afford it, but i've lived in Dublin all my life, its central and i wouldn't be stuck in traffic and i could meet my friends in town for pints. Surely you wouldn't begrudge me moving in here and your tax money going towards keeping me here if i stop paying the mortgage? I mean i have roots, connections and family in Dublin.


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    #244
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Jocker wrote: »
    Get yourself a pint would ye and grease your arse as you are also being F**ked by these politicians!

    Have a week off from the forum.


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    #245
    Nantastic
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭Nantastic


    HellFireClub: The policy in your head...

    Ah here Hellfireclub, you're making it up as you go along now.


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    #246
    bmarley
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭bmarley


    So much for the promises of the government to help those who took out mortgages from 2006 ...we're still waiting. So many families working their asses off to meet their mortgage payments..some can barely feed their children. What's the solution..make them leave their homes and have to accommodate them elsewhere...social housing or pay huge bills in rent supplements.


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    #247
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    bmarley wrote: »
    So much for the promises of the government to help those who took out mortgages from 2006 ...we're still waiting. So many families working their asses off to meet their mortgage payments..some can barely feed their children. What's the solution..make them leave their homes and have to accommodate them elsewhere...social housing or pay huge bills in rent supplements.

    Serioulsy, I don't understand this argument. If they are not in the position to rent in the private market and would require social housing/rent relief, then clearly that person in such financial difficulty that even offering debt relief they are probably still not going to be able to service their mortgage. I can see the point of postponing a repossession while the person is in short term unemployment, but on a long term basis it will become unsustainable - with or without debt forgiveness.


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    #248
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Things that go on inside your head aren't policy!?! Its basic maths, taught from 1st class onwards. If you cannot afford something, don't buy it. Where did all of these "victims" live before the boom??

    If you can't afford to buy during the boom, rent in Dublin if you really want to stay there. Your attitude absolutly stinks and its the likes of this attitude that makes people hate the smug Dubs, not everywhere outside of The Pale is a bog.

    Also, as a matter of interest, your pre-boom house that you sold mid-boom. Did you sell that at its actually value price? Or did you sell it at boom prices?? You as the seller had the choice as to what price you sold it for, did you also vet potential buyers to see if they had "connections" in the area, and weren't some blow-ins trying to rob a salt of the earth Dubs homestead!?!?

    Actually, you've swayed me, i wanna live here, http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=575320 , I can't afford it, but i've lived in Dublin all my life, its central and i wouldn't be stuck in traffic and i could meet my friends in town for pints. Surely you wouldn't begrudge me moving in here and your tax money going towards keeping me here if i stop paying the mortgage? I mean i have roots, connections and family in Dublin.

    I bought my house for the price it was on the market for pre boom and I sold it for the price it was on the market for when I sold it. I didn't give a fiddlers who bought it, I never met the person who bought it, I was advised I had a buyer and I sold at the price that it was put on the market for. I wasn't even in the country when it was sold, so I don't see your point at all there...

    What's that got to do with the discussion at hand???

    As for the taxpayer argument, this is a rediculous argument. If two people/a couple get a mortgage for 350K and take out a 30 year mortgage on a property, but one of the two loses their job, and then a year later, the other loses their job or has to take a serious pay cut along with tax hikes, etc, how on earth could it be argued that the same couple somehow were victims of their own demise???

    Should the same couple have rented for the rest of their lives in the vague nervous expectation that one or both of them may lose their jobs and be unable to pay their mortgage???

    Should all of the people who are now on the dole who are in mortgage arrears, should every one of them not have gotten into a mortgage in the first place???


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    #249
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Nantastic wrote: »
    Ah here Hellfireclub, you're making it up as you go along now.

    No I'm not, you don't need a government policy document to tell you that you have the following housing options:

    (1) Renting.

    (2) Buying.

    (3) Homelessness.


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    #250
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I bought my house for the price it was on the market for pre boom and I sold it for the price it was on the market for when I sold it. I didn't give a fiddlers who bought it, I never met the person who bought it, I was advised I had a buyer and I sold at the price that it was put on the market for. I wasn't even in the country when it was sold, so I don't see your point at all there...

    What's that got to do with the discussion at hand???

    As for the taxpayer argument, this is a rediculous argument. If two people/a couple get a mortgage for 350K and take out a 30 year mortgage on a property, but one of the two loses their job, and then a year later, the other loses their job or has to take a serious pay cut along with tax hikes, etc, how on earth could it be argued that the same couple somehow were victims of their own demise???

    Should the same couple have rented for the rest of their lives in the vague nervous expectation that one or both of them may lose their jobs and be unable to pay their mortgage???

    Should all of the people who are now on the dole who are in mortgage arrears, should every one of them not have gotten into a mortgage in the first place???

    So you didn't care if someone was buying it as an investment property?? You didn't care if your unfair price was forcing people from the area out of the market for it?? I can't see your logic at all. You complain about high prices forcing young dubs down to the "bog" as you called it, but you were part of the problem!!!

    Can you seriously not see the HUGE flaw in your argument??


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    #251
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #252
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    So you didn't care if someone was buying it as an investment property?? You didn't care if your unfair price was forcing people from the area out of the market for it?? I can't see your logic at all. You complain about high prices forcing young dubs down to the "bog" as you called it, but you were part of the problem!!!

    Can you seriously not see the HUGE flaw in your argument??

    I know it wasn't sold to an investor because I instructed that it wasn't to be sold to an investor at the time and that I wasn't to be contacted about offers in relation to any investor. Outside of that, I do not personally know who bought my home, I was only told subsequent to the sale, by a neighbour, that it was bought by a retired person who was downsizing, however as to who this person was, where they were from, whether they had a family or not, what accent they had, what car they drove, what colour their eyes were, I had not a clue, nor did I need to know....

    But under no circumstances was my house being sold to a property speculator, so no, I fail to see how I am a part of the problem.


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    #253
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    This may be a populist opinion but I fear it isn't grounded in any fact.

    If the situation of a couple who have bought a 350K house, whether they bought a house for 320K and took a 30K "furniture" loan at the same time and mortgaged this for 350K, or whether they just borrowed 350K for a house or if they just borrowed 200K for a house, if one or both of them are unemployed now, then they are under serious serious pressure to keep up payments on their mortgage.

    All I'm asking is what has this got to do with poor decisions in relation to taking out a mortgage??? How on earth can a couple be expected to foresee one or both of them losing their jobs?


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    #254
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #255
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Next on the experts in hindsight forum: "surely ye realised that the banks were broke and the IMF was going to be called in? The dogs in the street knew that"


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    #256
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    This may be a populist opinion but I fear it isn't grounded in any fact.

    If the situation of a couple who have bought a 350K house, whether they bought a house for 320K and took a 30K "furniture" loan at the same time and mortgaged this for 350K, or whether they just borrowed 350K for a house or if they just borrowed 200K for a house, if one or both of them are unemployed now, then they are under serious serious pressure to keep up payments on their mortgage.
    You dont think there is any difference in the same couple taking out a huge mortgage of 350k or more modest one of 200k? The difference is that 150k over the lifetime of the mortgage would have made a huge difference to them in the inevitable rough patches.


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    #257
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #258
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bambi wrote: »
    Next on the experts in hindsight forum: "surely ye realised that the banks were broke and the IMF was going to be called in? The dogs in the street knew that"

    Hindsight isn't required. Only a bit of foresight:
    "Can I afford this mortgage now?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if interest rates go up?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if I lose my job?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if I have higher outgoings, like raising children?"

    Like you:
    Bambi wrote: »
    As someone who didnt buy during the boom (because I thought the prices were insane)....


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    #259
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Why do these threads always read as if there is a bailout for homeowners in negative equity. In fact there is not and they are also paying to bailout everyone else!

    The irony of a property speculator giving out about young couples putting a roof over their heads would be funny if it wasn't such a sad situation.

    Often the biggest most expensive place they could buy was a one or two bed apartment. Not so good now when starting a family.

    A mortgage and rent strike would put manners on the banks and lenders moral hazard goes both ways.


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    #260
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I bought my house for the price it was on the market for pre boom and I sold it for the price it was on the market for when I sold it. I didn't give a fiddlers who bought it, I never met the person who bought it, I was advised I had a buyer and I sold at the price that it was put on the market for.
    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I know it wasn't sold to an investor because I instructed that it wasn't to be sold to an investor at the time and that I wasn't to be contacted about offers in relation to any investor. Outside of that, I do not personally know who bought my home, I was only told subsequent to the sale, by a neighbour, that it was bought by a retired person who was downsizing, however as to who this person was, where they were from, whether they had a family or not, what accent they had, what car they drove, what colour their eyes were, I had not a clue, nor did I need to know....

    But under no circumstances was my house being sold to a property speculator, so no, I fail to see how I am a part of the problem.

    So you sold your house at boom-time prices?? Pricing many of the people you claim to care about, the ones with roots, connections and family out of it, but you didn't care about this once you got your money. In your eyes, if they couldn't afford your price they could hit "the bog"?? Would the last sentence be correct?? If they couldn't afford it then tough!!

    And your legs must be killing you after that amazing bout of back pedalling once you were caught out, you went from, and i quote "I didn't give a fiddlers who bought it" which is quite a sweeping statement considering you were so anti-speculator to "under no circumstances was my house being sold to a property speculator". I would have thought you would have made this clear first time??

    You were one of the hundreds of thousands who inflated the price of your property.You gave out a few pages ago about people adding an extra 50k or so if there was a mountain view, but when you were told what the boom market price was for your house did you ever stop and say, wait a minute, my house isn't worth that!! No, you were exactly the same as the speculators your giving out about. The only difference is that you did it once and they tried to do it over and over again.


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    #261
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    dvpower wrote: »
    Hindsight isn't required. Only a bit of foresight:
    "Can I afford this mortgage now?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if interest rates go up?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if I lose my job?"
    "Can I afford this mortgage if I have higher outgoings, like raising children?"

    Like you:

    If everyone thought like that no one except the very rich would own property. Or even start businesses for that matter.


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    #262
    whatdoicare
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    We were lucky (or had enough cop on) to not pay crazy money for a huge house - we bought a reasonable sized house for reasonable money and had 30% of the cash saved and ready to go before we signed anything. Even taking all these measures our neighbours' paid a fraction of what we paid for no other reason than we were born 10 years too late. This is a hard fact of life but there is nothing we can do about that - we (my husband and I) needed a place to live and renting was just as expensive as our mortgage payments (and still is - judging by some quick research). We bought our home to start our family- to live in it until we die and pass it on to our kids to either sell/rent or live in.
    Because of this - we will always pay our mortgage payments - no matter what. We love our home and we work very hard to keep it.

    The only thing I wish could change is the interest rate that keeps going up and up - we are no longer allowed have a fixed rate and now feel we have no control over our payments - We can't plan for savings/budget any longer because we are never sure what our payments are going to be each month. We are terrified the rates will go to the levels of 1980s - 14-20% - If that happens we have no hope of paying unless we give up essentials like eating and heating!
    If I could choose one thing to implement on the banks is that in return for the guarantee that interest rates be capped for a while - or fixed for a set amount of years - it would be a huge help to Joe Soaps out there who are doing their best to pay.

    Much more helpful and sensible than radical - noone pay their mortgage craziness!


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    #263
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    20Cent wrote: »
    If everyone thought like that no one except the very rich would own property. Or even start businesses for that matter.

    They are fairly basic questions to ask. Outside of basic impulse purchases like a bar of chocolate or new cushions etc you should always be asking can you afford it.


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    #264
    Debtocracy
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Debtocracy


    Mortgages holders will be bailed out some way. Don’t you get it yet, its one giant Ponzi scheme. If one group of society stops making their debt re-payments, the whole system collapses. The government (a bankrupt institution) will borrow money off the EU (another bankrupt institution) who will borrow it off a bank (also bankrupt) who will borrows it off Ben Bernanke who just prints the money.


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    #265
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    So you sold your house at boom-time prices?? Pricing many of the people you claim to care about, the ones with roots, connections and family out of it, but you didn't care about this once you got your money. In your eyes, if they couldn't afford your price they could hit "the bog"?? Would the last sentence be correct?? If they couldn't afford it then tough!!

    And your legs must be killing you after that amazing bout of back pedalling once you were caught out, you went from, and i quote "I didn't give a fiddlers who bought it" which is quite a sweeping statement considering you were so anti-speculator to "under no circumstances was my house being sold to a property speculator". I would have thought you would have made this clear first time??

    You were one of the hundreds of thousands who inflated the price of your property.You gave out a few pages ago about people adding an extra 50k or so if there was a mountain view, but when you were told what the boom market price was for your house did you ever stop and say, wait a minute, my house isn't worth that!! No, you were exactly the same as the speculators your giving out about. The only difference is that you did it once and they tried to do it over and over again.

    What part of my reply are you ignoring??? I said that I did not know who bought my house, I did not know where they came from, I did not know anything about them, nor did I need to know.

    I said I specifically instructed my estate agent that I wasn't to be contacted in relation to investors, as I didn't want to sell to an investor for reasons that didn't concern her as this was being dealt with while I was out of the country and I didn't want to be contacted in a different time zone about investors/potetial buyers that to my mind, were not going to be buying my property.

    I fully stand over what I said. I did not and would not ever sell to an investor because I do not believe they should have been in the market on the same terms, (or better terms) as a person who was buying for reasons that were more socially acceptable to me. Also, I didn't sell at the peak of the boom, I sold and made a modest profit on my home. The person who bought (who was downsizing), made a profit too and probably has a better pension now due to the transaction at their end, as they were able to get some equity out the sale of the their own house and they bought my house at a very affordable price, so they got to keep the bit in the middle...

    What's the problem with that???


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    #266
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    meglome wrote: »
    They are fairly basic questions to ask. Outside of basic impulse purchases like a bar of chocolate or new cushions etc you should always be asking can you afford it.

    Following your criteria no one except those who can pay the full amount up front would be able to own property.


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    #267
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    And for the avoidance of doubt for the smug brigade, I owned a house that I lived in pre-boom and sold it in the middle of the boom.
    HellFireClub wrote: »
    Also, I didn't sell at the peak of the boom, I sold and made a modest profit on my home.

    Quite the revisionist, you seem to change your story every 5 minutes to suit whatever your saying.


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    #268
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    To those who say that people who took out the mortgages for ridiculous prices are to blame and need to take responsibilty themselves for all of the debt well I say that that is bull****.

    The government had practically brainwashed people into thinking that if they didn't get onto the property ladder there and then, that they never would.

    I'm lucky to have a small mortgage so it wouldn't affect me but let's be honest here, the bailout money will not be paid back, most of that is going to be written off in the end whether you believe it or not.......so basically the developers and banks will have gotten off practically scott free but the people who took out the mortgages will still have to pay inflated prices and have their children go without.


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    #269
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    I must have been watching Lost when they were doing the brainwashing, because i didn't pay way over the odds for my house!! None of my friends did either, and some of those don't even watch Lost, they must have been out.


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    #270
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Quite the revisionist, you seem to change your story every 5 minutes to suit whatever your saying.

    Yes Watson, selling in the middle of the boom (2004-2005) and at the peak of the boom, (early 2008) are two completely different things.

    I don't see how that is changing my story, more like you trying to stretch words beyond what they are actually understood to mean in English...


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    #271
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    I must have been watching Lost when they were doing the brainwashing, because i didn't pay way over the odds for my house!! None of my friends did either, and some of those don't even watch Lost, they must have been out.


    Do you think people got ridiculously high mortgages that they could barely manage on 2 wages just for the fun of it?

    They were brainwashed from the government and media that prices were only going to keep going up and people panicked.


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