Orangemen with native Irish ancestry

Godot.

Stumbled across a Facebook page about Orange lodges one day and was stunned by the amount of native surnames - Kelly, Donnell and Doran amongst others. I just don't understand the mentality of these people, if I was a Protestant with even a hint of Catholic ancestry I would be ashamed of marching.

Were 'soup drinkers' more common up north?

Wibbs

What about non native names like Smith* and Jones and the like who were likely protestants in the past and are of a now catholic background? That's an even odder one given the restrictions imposed on catholics in the past.





*smith being a grey area though.

owenc

Godot. wrote: »

Stumbled across a Facebook page about Orange lodges one day and was stunned by the amount of native surnames - Kelly, Donnell and Doran amongst others. I just don't understand the mentality of these people, if I was a Protestant with even a hint of Catholic ancestry I would be ashamed of marching.

Were 'soup drinkers' more common up north?

Hi yes theres loads of them in northern ireland, but they will deny that their ancestry is irish and say there was a name-change but you know full well to look at them that they are soupers they don't look like ulster scots. I mentioned it to one of them one day and he nearly killed me shows how pathetic they are.Personally i can't stand these people as these are usually the ones with the chip on their shoulder its as if they are being thran because of their ancestry just look someday and you'll notice it straight away its hilarious. As for your last question i would have to say its the other way around i have loads of catholic ancestry on my mothers side and nearly all of them were originally protetsants of some sort its suffice to say that protestants were the ones converting although forced!

owenc

Wibbs wrote: »

What about non native names like Smith* and Jones and the like who were likely protestants in the past and are of a now catholic background? That's an even odder one given the restrictions imposed on catholics in the past.





*smith being a grey area though.

Southern ireland would be different to northern ireland though,the catholics you see with foreignish names are natives its just that their name has been translated from irish into an english name. The Catholic Smiths in Northern Ireland would be planter descent though because there would've been very few natives in northern ireland before the plantation, as far as i can see it nearly everyone in northern ireland is planter descent no matter catholic or protestant it just so happens that some ended up converting. And the last point i'm confused too because i have conversions in the 1750s and i fail to see how that occured.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I know that the surname Smith or Smythe is often a derivative of the Irish name MacGabhanna.

Snickers Man

The way you tell Prods from Taigs up north is not by their surnames; it's by their first names.

If you just heard the name McGuinness, without seeing the spelling, what could you assume about the politics of the bearer. Was it UDR major and Unionist Ken, or IRA commander and Shinner Martin?

What about Adams? Would we be talking about the bould Gerry, IRA negotiator from 1972, internee, supposed former Chief of Staff and president of Sinn Fein or former UDA man and now Irish Times columnist David?

There are many more examples.

There has been such intermarriage over the centuries that surnames are not a reliable indicator. Far better to rely on first names to distinguish one foot from the other.

Anybody with a Gaelic name (Seamus, Sean, Declan, Eamonn etc) is Catholic.
Anybody with a recognisably English (Colin, Nigel, Trevor) or Scottish name, especially if it doubles as a surname (eg Douglas, Cameron, Sandy, Glenn) is Protestant.

Presbyterians also have an aversion to naming their young after recognisable saints. So anybody called Tony, Francis or Vincent is almost certainly Catholic.

Of course, this is not a 100 per cent accurate rule. I have known Northern Fenians called Douglas and Sandy but I reckon it's about as reliable as a condom. ie about 90 per cent.

Call it the Johnny rule.:)

owenc

Flip me your vocabulary is a bit sectarian. But that solution is not the best way to work it out because i know loads of presbyterians called tony. The way i would do it would be listen to the way they talk if they say "h" like aitch they are definately a protestant without doubt catholics would NEVER do this! But that doesn't always work i usually just listen to their accent and if its really broad then they are protestant and if its quite strong and whiny then they are catholics i.e the derry accent versus ballymoney. Is it just me or is there a reoccurring trend that nationalists in northern ireland have this whiney accent because i'm starting to notice this like just look at derry and then look at west belfast they are both really whiney! Another solution Is to ask them to say the word cake if they say it Like cayeke then they are Protestants and if they Say it like cak then they are Catholics this always works for some odd reason I do not know why they pronounce that differently but they do!

PatsytheNazi

Snickers Man wrote: »

The way you tell Prods from Taigs up north is not by their surnames; it's by their first names.

If you just heard the name McGuinness, without seeing the spelling, what could you assume about the politics of the bearer. Was it UDR major and Unionist Ken, or IRA commander and Shinner Martin?

Yes, nationalists like Martin spell it McGuinness, unionists like Ken/Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, spell it Maginnis. Sometimes even with first names you cannot tell, for example Paisley's wife is called Eileen, not a name you would normally link with the Free Prysbytarian's or the DUP !!!! Then of course their was the notorious Lenny Murphy of the Shankill butchers (it is thought that one of the reasons for his particuliar savagery was due to an inferiority complex of having such a nationalist name. In Long Kesh the IRA used to taunt him with the nickname SuperProd).

Not trying to stir up secterianism, though their is a cross over of names sometimes, to a large degree you can still tell " what side " a politican is from. I noticed this during the count for the Assembly elections as each politican's name is read out before their number of votes is given. I.e. Sean, Sinead, Micheal, Una with second names like O'Hagan, McCartan, MaGuire, O'Donnnell, Mulligan, Kelly are generally SF or SDLP. Others such as Cecil, Hazel, Johnathon, June with second names such as Craig, Dixon, McCrea, Wilson unionist.

fontanalis

Surely there must be some good business connections to be had from joining the orange order, a bit like FF in the republic.

InTheTrees

Snickers Man wrote: »

There has been such intermarriage over the centuries that surnames are not a reliable indicator. Far better to rely on first names to distinguish one foot from the other.

Sad really.

I mean we've reached a point where intermarriage has basically created a homogonized society but still we persist in dividing ourselves up.

So which religion would I qualify for with a first name "Mike"?

jonniebgood1

I dont want to interfere in this discussion as it could be interesting, but some posts have been questioned already. So I would ask that given the subject matter can be delicate to some people that all posts are kept as factual as possible. i.e. keep it sensible and the thread stays open.

Moderator- thanks.

Fratton Fred

Names can tell us so much about someone, like the Irish footballer Danny Murphy, or the Englishman Jon Walters.....

R.Dub.Fusilier

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, nationalists like Martin spell it McGuinness, unionists like Ken/Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, spell it Maginnis. Sometimes even with first names you cannot tell, for example Paisley's wife is called Eileen, not a name you would normally link with the Free Prysbytarian's or the DUP !!!! Then of course their was the notorious Lenny Murphy of the Shankill butchers (it is thought that one of the reasons for his particuliar savagery was due to an inferiority complex of having such a nationalist name. In Long Kesh the IRA used to taunt him with the nickname SuperProd).

Not trying to stir up secterianism, though their is a cross over of names sometimes, to a large degree you can still tell " what side " a politican is from. I noticed this during the count for the Assembly elections as each politican's name is read out before their number of votes is given. I.e. Sean, Sinead, Micheal, Una with second names like O'Hagan, McCartan, MaGuire, O'Donnnell, Mulligan, Kelly are generally SF or SDLP. Others such as Cecil, Hazel, Johnathon, June with second names such as Craig, Dixon, McCrea, Wilson unionist.

the murderer Lenny Murphy had some catholic heritage from his grandparents and used to get taunted as a child by protestant children and as he grew older he had to prove he hated catholics more than anyone else which is why he became a "super prod". Michael Stone , another loyal son, also had catholic heritage.

IMO i think this thread was started to do a bit of s**t stiring .

Snickers Man

owenc wrote: »

Flip me your vocabulary is a bit sectarian.

A flippancy perhaps. Please do not confuse my ability to recognise a pattern with an insistence that a value system be put in place alongside. IE just because I can guess (usually correctly) that somebody with an Antrim accent called say Sammy or Warren is a Protestant and that somebody with a Belfast accent called Eunan or Malachy is a Catholic does not mean that I consider the former to be diligent, hardworking and upright but bigoted to the core and that the latter are slovenly, lazy, possessing of a victim complex but quite congenial for all that.

Not true.

owenc wrote: »

The way i would do it would be listen to the way they talk if they say "h" like aitch they are definately a protestant without doubt catholics would NEVER do this! But that doesn't always work i usually just listen to their accent and if its really broad then they are protestant and if its quite strong and whiny then they are catholics i.e the derry accent versus ballymoney. Is it just me or is there a reoccurring trend that nationalists in northern ireland have this whiney accent

Sometimes an accent can be an indicator but only that. In Derry a recognisable "posher" version of the local accent may be an indication that one is a protestant but that's a class distinction rather than a religious one. Local protestant middle class people may have gone to, say, Foyle College with many of their peers whereas even the Derry Catholic middle class would almost certainly have gone to St Columb's College where the vast majority of their peers would have come from the working class. The general accents of each school would vary accordingly.

Just imagine the difference in accents of the pupils at, say, Marian College in Sandymount and St Michael's just down the road in Dublin for a corresponding effect.

Also, some parts of the province are more recognisably adherent to one side than the other. The city of Derry is overwhelmingly Catholic. The possessor of a Derry City accent is more likely to be a Catholic than not. Whereas somebody from rural Antrim is overwhelmingly likely to be a Protestant.

As I was clear, I thought, to point out in my first post I AM generalising here. None of these rules of thumb are 100 per cent guaranteed to work. But they are GENERALLY true.

There's nothing particularly Irish about this. Marketing companies and the acting profession deal on these generalities all the time. The former depend on accurate targeting of the most appropriate markets for their clients. They can often guess your age to within 10 years based on your first name. For example Sophie is reportedly one of the most popular girls' names for kids born in Ireland over the last few years. Have you EVER met any Irish person of your parents' generation called Sophie? I don't know ANY Irish person of that name.

Actors too, keen to create an illusion, deal on stereotypes and generalities. The more subtly they do it, the better they are. The more obviously they do it, the cheaper and tattier they are.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

InTheTrees wrote: »

Sad really.

I mean we've reached a point where intermarriage has basically created a homogonized society but still we persist in dividing ourselves up.

So which religion would I qualify for with a first name "Mike"?

Mike is abbreviation of Michael, like Mick. And Irish people are called Micks abroad so you're a Taig. :pac:

MarchDub

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

IMO i think this thread was started to do a bit of s**t stiring .

I agree.

Wibbs

owenc wrote: »

And the last point i'm confused too because i have conversions in the 1750s and i fail to see how that occured.

It may not have been forced. It may have been to fit in locally, because of marriage or even - and not so understandable for most today - for actual religious reasons and feelings. So a church of england immigrant when exposed to local catholic faith, may well have had a religious conversion, regardless of how that affected their future lives. Hell people, many thousands of people have willingly died(and killed) over this very thing.

If back than one was an atheist and also pragmatic and practical and wanted to get ahead in the world converting to the dominant religion would be quite the sensible thing to do. In Irelands case protestantism, in particular Church of Ireland. A more relaxed faith than either Catholicism or Presbytarianism. In another example, in europe many Jews were "converted", but as well quite a few Jews voluntarily converted and I doubt it was always a religious conversion, more a practical one. Too often being a practicing Jew got you killed. Not dying being the most practical of all considerations.

However it would require a much more god fearing person to not do that and so few enough did. That's the bit missing in this I think, we're maybe forgetting the religious aspect and the faith based mindset of people, mostly lower social scale and uneducated people generations ago?

MarchDub

Wibbs wrote: »

If back than one was an atheist and also pragmatic and practical and wanted to get ahead in the world converting to the dominant religion would be quite the sensible thing to do. In Irelands case protestantism, in particular Church of Ireland. A more relaxed faith than either Catholicism or Presbytarianism.

In what way? It was the Church of Ireland membership that made the Penal Laws. It was the established church and so conforming was essential to economic and political life.

Wibbs

MarchDub wrote: »

In what way? It was the Church of Ireland membership that made the Penal Laws. It was the established church and so conforming was essential to economic and political life.

Apologies, I mean more relaxed in a theological sense. Divorce as an example was allowed(even if social mores would judge ill of you). It's not as hard line a faith as Presbyterianism would be. Or putting it another way if you put a gun to the head of an average modern thinking person and said you have to chose a faith out of these three, CoI would likely be the winner.

MarchDub

Wibbs wrote: »

Apologies, I mean more relaxed in a theological sense. Divorce as an example was allowed(even if social mores would judge ill of you). It's not as hard line a faith as Presbyterianism would be. Or putting it another way if you put a gun to the head of an average modern thinking person and said you have to chose a faith out of these three, CoI would likely be the winner.

Not meaning to get into theology - but when historically are you referring to when you say divorce was allowed in the Church of Ireland? My C of I grandmother was very anti-divorce - and even today the church does not view civil divorce with an open mind and all cases for remarriage have to be referred to the bishop. The recent 'marriage' of HRH Prince Charles is a case of Anglican fright at the idea of divorce. His re-marriage didn't happen in a church - he and Camilla went to the local Registry Office. The Archbishop of Canterbury could only come up with a 'blessing'.

I also would like to know what you mean by 'modern thinking'? Are you suggesting that 'modern thinking' is ipso facto 'right thinking'? If so, that would appear to be a very narrow or selective view of our post-Enlightenment world IMO.

Wibbs

MarchDub wrote: »

Not meaning to get into theology - but when historically are you referring to when you say divorce was allowed in the Church of Ireland? My C of I grandmother was very anti-divorce - and even today the church does not view civil divorce with an open mind and all cases for remarriage have to be referred to the bishop. The recent 'marriage' of HRH Prince Charles is a case of Anglican fright at the idea of divorce. His re-marriage didn't happen in a church - he and Camilla went to the local Registry Office. The Archbishop of Canterbury could only come up with a 'blessing'.

Oh I agree MD, but it was allowed for much more than in catholic teaching. Like I said social negativity was still high, but officially less. Comparing CoI, Presbyterian and Catholic teachings, the CoI was the lesser of three 'evils' as far as hardline thought went.

I also would like to know what you mean by 'modern thinking'? Are you suggesting that 'modern thinking' is ipso facto 'right thinking'?

Compared to the past or most of the people in the past? Yes I would say on balance global modern thinking is more objective and less superstitious, or individual human superstition has less influence than it did. It's got some way to go, but historically speaking the supernatural has less sway. The pre enlightenment world was quite a bit different.

MarchDub

Wibbs wrote: »

Compared to the past or most of the people in the past? Yes I would say on balance global modern thinking is more objective and less superstitious, or individual human superstition has less influence than it did. It's got some way to go, but historically speaking the supernatural has less sway. The pre enlightenment world was quite a bit different.

We will have to disagree on that - modern thinking is not much actual thinking IMO; public opinion today is swayed by advertising, cheap 'sensational' broadsheets, the gods of market place values, and yes, pressure to conform or be labelled dull witted. Little changes...

As Iris Murdock said 'the Enlightenment died in the mid twentieth century'. Not that it was much of an 'enlightenment' anyway - wars for instance got worse and involved many more people. But we are off topic...

Emme

Wibbs wrote: »

In Irelands case protestantism, in particular Church of Ireland. A more relaxed faith than either Catholicism or Presbytarianism.

Unfortunately not. I was raised COI and anyone of that faith I know was vehemently anti-divorce. Sex outside marriage was forbidden and they hold similar views to Roman Catholics on abortion apart from being willing to intervene for the sake of the mother's life. COI girls who had children out of wedlock were in many cases treated just as badly as the Roman Catholic girls who were banished to the Magdalen laundries. Read any of Derek Leinster's books to see how "relaxed" the Church of Ireland is and how it treats its poor. In recent years the COI has been happy to stand back and cover up its own sins while the Roman Catholic church takes the rap for clerical sex abuse among other things. OK, COI priests could marry so clerical sex abuse wasn't such a big issue but I know of people who were sexually abused in COI schools and still bear the scars.

There's a vast difference between the (almost extinct) smug enclave of South Dublin and Wicklow COI and the (now almost defunct) impoverished COI of rural Ireland. I am from rural Ireland and found that I had far more in common with my Roman Catholic neighbours than with the South Dublin COI snobs.

Despite this in some areas there is still pressure to "marry within your own faith" and not so long ago people were disinherited and disowned if they didn't conform. There is also a toxic snobbery inherent within the Church of Ireland which I didn't see in Roman Catholics, Presbyterians or Methodists.

I am now happily Agnostic

As for Orangemen having native Irish ancestry, if you go back far enough the Ulster Scots and Native Irish would have a lot of common origins. Like somebody else pointed out earlier, it's more how you spell your family name rather than the family name you have that points out your tribal allegiance in Northern Ireland.

PatsytheNazi

Emme wrote: »

Unfortunately not. I was raised COI and anyone of that faith I know was vehemently anti-divorce. Sex outside marriage was forbidden and they hold similar views to Roman Catholics on abortion apart from being willing to intervene for the sake of the mother's life. COI girls who had children out of wedlock were in many cases treated just as badly as the Roman Catholic girls who were banished to the Magdalen laundries. Read any of Derek Leinster's books to see how "relaxed" the Church of Ireland is and how it treats its poor. In recent years the COI has been happy to stand back and cover up its own sins while the Roman Catholic church takes the rap for clerical sex abuse among other things. OK, COI priests could marry so clerical sex abuse wasn't such a big issue but I know of people who were sexually abused in COI schools and still bear the scars.

There's a vast difference between the (almost extinct) smug enclave of South Dublin and Wicklow COI and the (now almost defunct) impoverished COI of rural Ireland. I am from rural Ireland and found that I had far more in common with my Roman Catholic neighbours than with the South Dublin COI snobs.

Despite this in some areas there is still pressure to "marry within your own faith" and not so long ago people were disinherited and disowned if they didn't conform. There is also a toxic snobbery inherent within the Church of Ireland which I didn't see in Roman Catholics, Presbyterians or Methodists.

I am now happily Agnostic

As for Orangemen having native Irish ancestry, if you go back far enough the Ulster Scots and Native Irish would have a lot of common origins. Like somebody else pointed out earlier, it's more how you spell your family name rather than the family name you have that points out your tribal allegiance in Northern Ireland.

Interesting post, especially ( though on hindsight predictable ) about south Dublin COI snobbery. Wonder what religion Ross Carrol O'Kelly is ( sounds like a Catholic :rolleyes: )

Well the OP is more about Orangemen and surnames etc, but as your post implies, Irish Protestant attitudes to divorce, sex outside of marraige etc were/are almost the same as Catholic ( BTW, I don't consider myself a Catholic whatsoever though baptised as one, I detest the organisation).

But a point I'd like to make is, now I am too aware that for 60 year sor so, the Catholic church virtually wrote the laws on contraception, divorce etc in the south. But these days the laws on these matters are almost the same on both sides of the border ? And indeed, abortion is also banned in the north, though allowable of course on the ' mainland '. So my point been, the orangemen for all their shouting actually have conservative Irish views on contraception, divorce, sex outside of marraige, homosexuality, abortion etc as those in the south ?

Indeed for all of their pronouncements of Britishness, the Orange Order are privately more suspicious of what they would call wishy washy liberals in the south of England than the RC's down south ?? As I said, conservative Irish values

Emme

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting post, especially ( though on hindsight predictable ) about south Dublin COI snobbery. Wonder what religion Ross Carrol O'Kelly is ( sounds like a Catholic :rolleyes: )

The bould Ross O'Carroll Kelly is more than likely Catholic. He went to a Catholic school and was inspired by rugby coach Father Fehily (who incidentally was a Nazi sympathizer ) However, he does like Protestant birds because they all ride horses and that makes them nymphos who can't get enough... :rolleyes:

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well the OP is more about Orangemen and surnames etc, but as your post implies, Irish Protestant attitudes to divorce, sex outside of marraige etc were/are almost the same as Catholic ( BTW, I don't consider myself a Catholic whatsoever though baptised as one, I detest the organisation).

Actual religion has little to do with the Troubles in NI. It's more to do with tribal allegiance and it's convenient for them to call their tribes Catholic and Protestant and use that as an excuse for fighting. If they didn't have religion they'd probably call their tribes Tagues and Sandys. Like what you said about the surname, go back far enough and you'll find that Lambeg drummer Alistair Smith's Scottish ancestors were called MacGabhann in the past.

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

But a point I'd like to make is, now I am too aware that for 60 year sor so, the Catholic church virtually wrote the laws on contraception, divorce etc in the south. But these days the laws on these matters are almost the same on both sides of the border ? And indeed, abortion is also banned in the north, though allowable of course on the ' mainland '. So my point been, the orangemen for all their shouting actually have conservative Irish views on contraception, divorce, sex outside of marraige, homosexuality, abortion etc as those in the south ?

Northern Ireland has a lot of evangelical Christians who would be even more conservative than the most hard-line Catholics. If you quizzed the average Orangeman about his beliefs on divorce, abortion etc. he'd be more likely to hold conservative beliefs on these issues than not. Indeed, he might find Dublin far too liberal for his tastes!

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Indeed for all of their pronouncements of Britishness, the Orange Order are privately more suspicious of what they would call wishy washy liberals in the south of England than the RC's down south ?? As I said, conservative Irish values

For Orangemen, being British is more tribal identity than anything else. They can be laughably ignorant about what goes on in the South - some of them think we still live in one room hovels with a hole in the roof for a chimney and no running water or electricity! Bless.

owenc

Patsy the Presbyterian church is not the same in views as the catholic church! The Presbyterians are actually a million times more conservative than Catholics. As for divorce And abortions well they don't care about divorce but would take abortion very seriously! And you say Irish conservative Values actually no! Those values originate in the Scottish lowlands not Ireland why do you think the conservatives always win elections there! so essentially we are different! The c of I in no is quite different to the ones down south in conservative values I quarntee you if you goto a service here and a service down there they will be very very different in attitude and how it's conducted so I don't think it's very wise to compare us with yous. Heck you could even say that the catholic church here is more conservative than down there!

fontanalis

What denomination was Iris Robinson?

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

What denomination was Iris Robinson?

Elim pentecostal But I think she was originally Presbyterian

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Elim pentecostal But I think she was originally Presbyterian

Didn't Ian Paisley form breakaway church from the "mainstream Presbyterian" church? If so were there theological reasons?

Fratton Fred

Emme,

Your experience of the CofI is obviously a lot different to mine.

I attend church fairly regularly and from what I can
see, there is a wide ranging and very welcoming community, it certainly isn't nearly extinct.

We regularly have ecumenical services as well and the local priest and rector are very good friends who work together for the benefit of the whole community.

there are one or two fairly stuffy ministers around, but most of the ones I have met are pretty liberal minded people (both male and female) and not in the slightest bit snobby or smug.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Didn't Ian Paisley form breakaway church from the "mainstream Presbyterian" church? If so were there theological reasons?

Yes he did and for a stupid reason! He is now the moderator of the "free" presbyterian church one of the most pathetic bigoted churches I've seen in my life! The down presbytery (which is the equivalent to a civil parish) had a session minute about the lissan church having a gospel mission and two of the elders refused and left the church because the presbytery didn't want a gospel mission! (I read this on the wikipedia but what a stupid reason to form a church they don't even have any differences in doctrine!)