Gilmore the hypocrit

Permabear

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Drumpot

Permabear wrote: »

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Dont think you will get a reply to that one . . Nice smoking gun ! !

Cue hardcore public service reply "But its all the private sectors fault etc etc etc etc etc etc" . . .

Permabear

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sollar

Permabear wrote: »

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You missed out on the government collecting the wrong taxes. Had we been taxed properly we would not have had the collapse in revenues that we had. They relied on consumption taxes and taxes dependent on the property boom.

The Volt

Permabear wrote: »

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Are the captains of industry, senior bank managers, investment managers, insurance actuaries etc etc etc all not grossly overpaid too? It seems that they're making sure that they can hang on to their over-inflated pay scales by cutting the pay rates of the very lowest paid in society.

It might also have escaped your attention that the pay-cuts and levies imposed on public and civil servants at the lower end of the scale completely outweighs any moneys they would have received through public service bench-marking.

nesf

kev9100 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most difficult and mentally exhausting jobs possible.

Eh, what?

anymore

nesf wrote: »

Eh, what?

You have to remember most teachers go from secondary school to teacher training college and back to school without having any real experience of how the real world works !

Jaysoose

Voltwad wrote: »

Are the captains of industry, senior bank managers, investment managers, insurance actuaries etc etc etc all not grossly overpaid too? It seems that they're making sure that they can hang on to their over-inflated pay scales by cutting the pay rates of the very lowest paid in society.

It might also have escaped your attention that the pay-cuts and levies imposed on public and civil servants at the lower end of the scale completely outweighs any moneys they would have received through public service bench-marking.

The increments that are still being paid to a large portion of so-called lower paid public and civil servants will have softened the blow somewhat so you can spare us the poor mouth on their behalf.

CommuterIE

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree one hundred percent, but it won't be the government telling the people now... they seem to be bent on driving the country into the ground... so much so that it will be the IMF & EU calling the shots... at that stage the government can sit back and say... well it's not us that are doing this, its the IMF etc! Enda Kennys announcement of no tax increases and no social welfare cuts it downright stupidity

99nsr125

anymore wrote: »

Having thought about this, the answe is no, it would be a mistake to allow this type of absurdity to go unremarked particularily now that former techer Enda Kenny and his pseudo socialist buddy, Gilmore are determined to keep protecting the PS whilst so many are on the scrap heap.

I thought the program for government called for at least a 25,000 reduction
in public service numbers and privatisation of state assets. That's hardly protecting them.

He's right though sheltered sectors of the economy need to be less sheltered.

Examples of the past
Aer Lingus / Ryan Air
Eircom and the broadband debacle.

Doctors are still barred from advertising and also very restricted
in the way a new GP can take on medical card services.

Alcohol licenses are still restricted.

The list goes on and we have no money to overlook these problems
anymore.

Public or Private it doesn't matter, if it's holding us back it's gotta be
fixed.

The Volt

Jaysoose wrote: »

The increments that are still being paid to a large portion of so-called lower paid public and civil servants will have softened the blow somewhat so you can spare us the poor mouth on their behalf.

That's nonsense. Increments are about people making their way up the maximum pay in a job which in many cases is just over the minimum wage, say 25k. It might take years for someone to even reach that.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

That's nonsense. Increments are about people making their way up the maximum pay in a job which in many cases is just over the minimum wage, say 25k. It might take years for someone to even reach that.

What a laugh ! € 25 k is not 'just over the minimum wage '
I doubt if there is a single ptivate sector minimum wage worker who doesnt have to work harder than PS workers earning 20 ro 25 K!
And of course lower paid PD workers alsl have perk of annual paid 'sick holidays'.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

What a laugh ! € 25 k is not 'just over the minimum wage '
I doubt if there is a single ptivate sector minimum wage worker who doesnt have to work harder than PS workers earning 20 ro 25 K!
And of course lower paid PD workers alsl have perk of annual paid 'sick holidays'.

I always find this attitude a bit rich given the people in the private sector who looked down on those in the public sector during the boom years while some were earning ridiculous money.

Even more so, it's saddening to see people like yourself really buy into the private versus public thing when the harsh reality of the situation is there are hundreds of thousands of people in all areas of employment struggling to keep their heads above water.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

I always find this attitude a bit rich given the people in the private sector who looked down on those in the public sector during the boom years while some were earning ridiculous money.

Even more so, it's saddening to see people like yourself really buy into the private versus public thing when the harsh reality of the situation is there are hundreds of thousands of people in all areas of employment struggling to keep their heads above water.

Believe me I am one of the people struggling to keep my head above water and it is this which makes all the more aware of the inequity of the PS system in Ireland. The division of irish society into the PS and the private sctor is very real and it is the private sector which is expected to bear the bulk of the pain whilst still subsidsing the over paid and quite often ineffective PS. It is regretable to lump all PS workers as one, but it is hard to break it down into categories,.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

Believe me I am one of the people struggling to keep my head above water and it is this which makes all the more aware of the inequity of the PS system in Ireland. The division of irish society into the PS and the private sctor is very real and it is the private sector which is expected to bear the bulk of the pain whilst still subsidsing the over paid and quite often ineffective PS. It is regretable to lump all PS workers as one, but it is hard to break it down into categories,.

Frankly, I find it lazy when people don't. There's a myriad of skills and commitment required in many parts of the public sector. While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

You never know what you've got until it's gone, be careful what you wish for. The mark of any civilized society is the services that are made available to its citizens. Ireland spends a smaller proportion of its wealth on the public sector than almost all of its European partners. Obviously we should demand and expect full value for money and for the investment that we put into our public sector but in blaming them for all our woes, we let the real culprits off the hook and whether we like it or not, the only public sector workers who bear any responsibility for our current economic plight were the politicians who were either asleep or compliant with their fellow travellers from the private sector (ie the bankers, builders, developers, speculators etc etc etc) who now lecture us about the importance of the private sector. It seems to me, we're following a policy of nationalizing debt and privatizing profit.

We've forgotten about building a society in our rush to preserve an economy. There was a time when an economy was being built to serve a society and it's very clear that those roles have been reversed.

Cookie_Monster

Voltwad wrote: »

While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

and it was the total incompetence of many of those same workers that meant roads and trains were not running or open due to weather most other countries could deal with with ease...

The Volt

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and it was the total incompetence of many of those same workers that meant roads and trains were not running or open due to weather most other countries could deal with with ease...

The public sector workers kept this country going despite a total lack of preparation by our political masters.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Frankly, I find it lazy when people don't. There's a myriad of skills and commitment required in many parts of the public sector. While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

You never know what you've got until it's gone, be careful what you wish for. The mark of any civilized society is the services that are made available to its citizens. Ireland spends a smaller proportion of its wealth on the public sector than almost all of its European partners. Obviously we should demand and expect full value for money and for the investment that we put into our public sector but in blaming them for all our woes, we let the real culprits off the hook and whether we like it or not, the only public sector workers who bear any responsibility for our current economic plight were the politicians who were either asleep or compliant with their fellow travellers from the private sector (ie the bankers, builders, developers, speculators etc etc etc) who now lecture us about the importance of the private sector. It seems to me, we're following a policy of nationalizing debt and privatizing profit.

We've forgotten about building a society in our rush to preserve an economy. There was a time when an economy was being built to serve a society and it's very clear that those roles have been reversed.

Teachers kept the country going ????? It was teachers in particular who made the news by thier eagerness to stay at hoome or hwo having gone to school rushed to close the schools at the first flurries of snow !!!!!!

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

Teachers kept the country going ????? It was teachers in particular who made the news by thier eagerness to stay at hoome or hwo having gone to school rushed to close the schools at the first flurries of snow !!!!!!

Kudos for picking one one group of many that I named there. Really scraping the barrel now you lot. Nothing to say about the point I made of us spending less on our public sector than most of Europe?

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Kudos for picking one one group of many that I named there. Really scraping the barrel now you lot. Nothing to say about the point I made of us spending less on our public sector than most of Europe?

Frankly if we spent more, most of the money would be money down the drain.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

Frankly if we spent more, most of the money would be money down the drain.

Would you think it's money down the drain if you end up sick in hospital and you're depending on the public health service, the overworked nurses and harassed junior doctors to save your life? Or maybe you would prefer the American way where they check to see if you have insurance before they put you into the ambulance.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

..

We've forgotten about building a society in our rush to preserve an economy. There was a time when an economy was being built to serve a society and it's very clear that those roles have been reversed.

This is such a terrible old hackneyed cliche ! Economies were never 'built' to serve societies ! Economies evolve just as socities evolove. Ireland needs to let go of it's love affair with cliches.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Would you think it's money down the drain if you end up sick in hospital and you're depending on the public health service, the overworked nurses and harassed junior doctors to save your life? Or maybe you would prefer the American way where they check to see if you have insurance before they put you into the ambulance.

I did have the experience recently of comparing a VHS clinic with an A & E in the public service. I was treated like a human being in the VHI clinic and like an imposition in the hospital - some of the staff seemed to be irritated to have to interupt their converation about thier social lives and the Doctor couldnt even bother his ass giving advice about whether or not to take painkillers - given he had been looking at a broken hand and dislocation, it might actually have occured to him.... if he gave a damn !
In contrast, I did find the follow up clinics useful ... but even these didnt take away the bad taste from the original A & E treatment.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

This is such a terrible old hackneyed cliche ! Economies were never 'built' to serve societies ! Economies evolve just as socities evolove. Ireland needs to let go of it's love affair with cliches.

In doing so, you're suggesting that we let go of our love affair with our own people. People seem to buy into the mythical being that is the market, an omnipresent being that has to be served at all costs. The economy must serve the people, what are we other than slaves otherwise?

For somebody who's just keeping his head above water, I'm surprised to see that you've bought into the story that somehow ordinary workers are responsible for the position that we're in now when it's been proved beyond all reasonable doubt that that's just not the case. The real crime in this country is that the criminals who are responsible for the loss of our economic freedom are all still free and not one of them has appeared in the courts though given some of the recent judgements of our esteemed judiciary, there's every likelihood that they'd have let their buddies off anyway.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

I did have the experience recently of comparing a VHS clinic with an A & E in the public service. I was treated like a human being in the VHI clinic and like an imposition in the hospital - some of the staff seemed to be irritated to have to interupt their converation about thier social lives and the Doctor couldnt even bother his ass giving advice about whether or not to take painkillers - given he had been looking at a broken hand and dislocation, it might actually have occured to him.... if he gave a damn !
In contrast, I did find the follow up clinics useful ... but even these didnt take away the bad taste from the original A & E treatment.

Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to need attention in our health system will vouch for getting treatment of the highest quality. As you have pointed out though, A&E is a major, major problem, one that I have experienced myself recently in Naas but that is down to a total lack of investment and our highly trained staff going elsewhere on the continent to where they are better treated.

Sand

@Voltwad

The public sector workers kept this country going despite a total lack of preparation by our political masters.

What? Its the public sector workers who are supposed to provide the planning and capacity to handle bad weather. I hardly think anyone expected to see Minister Ryan out gritting the roads or planning the neccessary purchases. As it was, most people were left to fend for themselves during the bad winter conditions.

That ministerial pressure is so heavily required to get anything done is a fairly damning indictment of the civil service/public sector.

Liam Byrne

Permabear wrote: »

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Very true (a rare occasion that we agree) however when ordinary decent people see the banks paying massive bonuses despite THEM not having any cash, they obviously feel that the "experts" don't see the need to live by that rule.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to need attention in our health system will vouch for getting treatment of the highest quality. As you have pointed out though, A&E is a major, major problem, one that I have experienced myself recently in Naas but that is down to a total lack of investment and our highly trained staff going elsewhere on the continent to where they are better treated.

You keep trotting out these cliches about ' highest quality' etc in relation to PS when anybody who reads the newspapers sees there is ample evidence that that is not always the case !
So let make a connection between the incompetence of our ' political masters' and one particular sector of the PS. 20 % of TDs/ Senators the last Dail were either still holding on their permanent teacher's jobs or had already retired. Six Ministers, I believe, of the last cabinet were teachers/former teachers. So the teaching profession had an enormous influence on the ' failed policies' of the last ten years. The present Taoiseach and present Leader of the Opposition are teachers/retired teachers. Expand the category to include TDs/ Senators who were members of other sectors of the PS and then expand it to include TDs/Senators who are married to members who are part of PS - you can include Eamon Gilmore and former Minister Mary Coughlan in this category. Add on that category again those top level civil servants who have an important role in the decision making process or who are relied upon to provide Ministers with relevant information and we are getting to the point of seeing just how much our ' political masters' are in fact very much part and parcel of the PS ! Now I dont think there are too many serving/former nurses or ambulance drivers who are part of the political establishment - there may a small few who have become TDs or Senators but I am not aware of them. The same goes for ambulance drivers members of the army etc. So the point I am making is that a certain sector of the PS wields enormous clout over the policy making and decision making process of this country. So maybe you should include this sector under the heading ' Political masters'

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

In doing so, you're suggesting that we let go of our love affair with our own people. People seem to buy into the mythical being that is the market, an omnipresent being that has to be served at all costs. The economy must serve the people, what are we other than slaves otherwise?

For somebody who's just keeping his head above water, I'm surprised to see that you've bought into the story that somehow ordinary workers are responsible for the position that we're in now when it's been proved beyond all reasonable doubt that that's just not the case. The real crime in this country is that the criminals who are responsible for the loss of our economic freedom are all still free and not one of them has appeared in the courts though given some of the recent judgements of our esteemed judiciary, there's every likelihood that they'd have let their buddies off anyway.

Your first paragraph there reminds of the kind of stuff that John waters and David Quinn write. Excpet neither of these two gentlemen seem to mind being part of the ' market' when it comes to being paid for services rendered. Anybody who walks, cyles or drives around our roads and sees the number of 2010 and 2011 cars on the road can see many people are doing very well thanks !

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

Frankly, I find it lazy when people don't.

Even when it is the unions? The reason you can't have a proper analysis of where the cuts should happen is the unions fight tooth and nail when anyone attempts to target the waste.

The unions would rather nobody looses their job in the public sector regardless of whether they are needed or not as they all pay union fees, in fact the useless are more likely to be paying them to keep themselves well protected.

If the public sector doesn't want to be treated as one group then it needs to stop acting like one group TBH and get behind proper reform.