S&C training v MA training (Mat time)

TKD SC

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to get a feel for how much S&C type training people do along with their MA training? It's in my head now from reading Barry's grapplerman blog where he mentions a cut back on S&C training and putting in a lot more hours on the mat.

It made me feel a bit better, as my own S&C training has gone down a good bit recently, due to birth of our first baby!

I think it's an interesting article re benefits of S&C compared to benefits of just getting MA training in and improving on your game.

On my own side, I used to do 2-3 S&C sessions per week plus 3-4 MA sessions per week. Now (for last two months) I do just 1 S&C session per week (maybe one other quick 20min crossfit type one at home if I can) and 2-3 MA sessions per week. I haven't found my MA detiorating at all due to less S&C work, not even on the sparring side re conditioning etc. In fact, I'm feeling pretty good at moment!!

Anyway, just thought it was interesting...here is link btw (hope Barry doesn't mind!): http://grapplerman.com/2011/06/19/musings-on-how-to-get-fitter-for-bjj/

Cheers
Simon

Gorey_R

I think strength and conditioning is the biggest hoax in the sports world, i think it's vastly overrated! I pray that when i'm developing my game, sharpening my tools and getting better that my opponents are out doing kettlebells, hill sprints and doing lame ass exercises!

Hanley

My MA knowledge isn't great (6 months of BJJ) but my lifting and conditioning would be quite good (5+ years of powerlifting).

My take on it is - depending on where you're at and who you are, different things matter. In an ideal world everyone would get all their MA and S&C work in, and nothing would suffer. But given a limited amount of time to train I think it makes more sense to focus on what you're going to be competing at (MA).

That being said, if oyu're already getting in 6+ sessions of MA stuff, some guys just won't mentally be able to handle more, but still want to train. So it makes sense to add in something that will be of benefit, ie S&C. BUT the next issue to look at is whether this will negatively impact the 6x MA sessions during the week - that is, would they be better taking those S&C sessions off and being fresher and more recovered for MA training.

Barry's said this to me before, but in pure cardio terms I'm fitter than him, and in 'strength' terms I'm way ahead of anyone I train with, but I can't apply them because my technical skill level isn't good enough. So my strength doesn't get used, and because I have to work harder during rolls I gas faster, even tho at a basic level my conditioning would be better than most.

So for me it makes a lot more sense to get more mat time in, as opposed to S&C work. I still like to get one gym session in, and maybe a couple of runs/KB work if I can, but that's as much for my own mental health as anything else.

And then there's another thing to consider - should gym work be used to enhance injury prevention first, and performance enhancement second? Because given where your priorities lay, you'll need to go down different avenues training wise.

So, like almost everything S&C related, the answer is "it depends".

crosdad

Will never understand why someone would choose to go for a run or a weightlifting seshion when they could be working on their technique, with the exception of if you're training for a fight or a comp.

I dont think there is anything wrong with strength and conditioning , But don't think you should be putting it before a chance to improve your skills.

TKD SC

Hanley wrote: »

But given a limited amount of time to train I think it makes more sense to focus on what you're going to be competing at (MA).

would they be better taking those S&C sessions off and being fresher and more recovered for MA training.

So for me it makes a lot more sense to get more mat time in, as opposed to S&C work. I still like to get one gym session in, and maybe a couple of runs/KB work if I can, but that's as much for my own mental health as anything else.

And then there's another thing to consider - should gym work be used to enhance injury prevention first, and performance enhancement second?
.

Hi Hanley,

Thanks for reply, interesting given your powerlifting background. I agree with the time element, and having a limited amount of time etc. For me, the gym would usually have been early morn before work, so didn't interfer with MA training anyway. I would never get in an extra gym session in the evening as MA training would always take precedence.

I agree with liking to get one gym session in anyway per week, as you say as much for own mental health! I really enjoy the gym sessions in their own right (even if I wasn't doing MA) so enjoy keeping it up, even if it's less than previously. I feel good after going etc.

Think there's a definite case for being fresher and more recovered for MA training - this to me might be the biggest benefit of my now reduced gym going! For example, we'd a tough session last night, lots of sparring etc, and I was feeling really good, certainly not any worse off due to less S&C work, in fact maybe felt better than before (although hard to quantify that and I might have been just having a good day!).

Agree with the injury prevention first too. Anyway, glad to get your views on the S&C side of it, and glad your enjoying the BJJ training. Hope Barry's jokes are as bad as ever?!

Thanks
Simon

Hanley

TKD SC wrote: »

Hi Hanley,

Thanks for reply, interesting given your powerlifting background. I agree with the time element, and having a limited amount of time etc. For me, the gym would usually have been early morn before work, so didn't interfer with MA training anyway. I would never get in an extra gym session in the evening as MA training would always take precedence.

I agree with liking to get one gym session in anyway per week, as you say as much for own mental health! I really enjoy the gym sessions in their own right (even if I wasn't doing MA) so enjoy keeping it up, even if it's less than previously. I feel good after going etc.

Think there's a definite case for being fresher and more recovered for MA training - this to me might be the biggest benefit of my now reduced gym going! For example, we'd a tough session last night, lots of sparring etc, and I was feeling really good, certainly not any worse off due to less S&C work, in fact maybe felt better than before (although hard to quantify that and I might have been just having a good day!).

Agree with the injury prevention first too. Anyway, glad to get your views on the S&C side of it, and glad your enjoying the BJJ training. Hope Barry's jokes are as bad as ever?!

Thanks
Simon

My gym session tends to either come directly after BJJ on Saturday, or on Sunday morning. But again it depends on how I feel. If I don't feel great, I'll take it off. I've been playing about with KBs all week because I needed a break from MA after coming off a serious amount of weekly mat time for the last month. I'll be back in Kyuzo tomorrow.

I like the idea of throwing some conditioning work onto the end of a 2 hour session of drilling and rolling (10-15 minutes of moderately high intensity), but Barry's given out to me about that recently because he thinks it's time better spent drilling. I kind of resisted but having come off a pretty poor performance in the munster open and not being happy with really simple things, I think he's probably right in that regard, for me at least anyway.

And Barry makes jokes...?

Peetrik

Personally I think the single most disappointing thing to see during a fight is a fighter totally out of gas after the first or second round. To me it just says they havent bothered to prepare for the fight properly.

I'd agree that training sparring and technique is much more benificial than lifting weights but running and hill sprints are essential.

Just my opinion

Chris89

Peetrik wrote: »

I'd agree that training sparring and technique is much more benificial than lifting weights but running and hill sprints are essential.

Just my opinion

Im in no way qualified but I dont see how this would be of any benefit, surely running up a hill just makes you better at running up a hill?

Hanley

Chris89 wrote: »

Im in no way qualified but I dont see how this would be of any benefit, surely running up a hill just makes you better at running up a hill?

Hill sprints = interval training... see the benefit?

I prefer hills to flat because you don't have to worry about all the heavy impacts that deceleration brings.

Chris89

Hanley wrote: »

Hill sprints = interval training... see the benefit?

I prefer hills to flat because you don't have to worry about all the heavy impacts that deceleration brings.

Would it not be better doing intervals of some sort of exercise or movement that actually has something to do with the sport you are training for?

Peetrik

Chris89 wrote: »

Would it not be better doing intervals of some sort of exercise or movement that actually has something to do with the sport you are training for?

Intervals are benifical for shortening your recovery time, so you can come out fresh each round.

Sprints, espically hill sprints are very very effective at increasing your anaerobic fitness, ie how much & for how long you can explode into action with your heart going like the clappers like it would be in the ring.

Hanley

Chris89 wrote: »

Would it not be better doing intervals of some sort of exercise or movement that actually has something to do with the sport you are training for?

Now you're into the who general versus specific physical adaptation argument. My gut instinct is that the closer you get to a fight, the more specific it should get. But that's not to saying doing other stuff is "worthless"!

Chris89

Hanley wrote: »

Now you're into the who general versus specific physical adaptation argument. My gut instinct is that the closer you get to a fight, the more specific it should get. But that's not to saying doing other stuff is "worthless"!

Obviously its not worthless, Id Rather have two euro than one euro but that doesnt make the one euro worthless.

I have no idea anyway, I know id rather roll or drill some moves for an hour than run up a mountain!

TKD SC

Peetrik wrote: »

Personally I think the single most disappointing thing to see during a fight is a fighter totally out of gas after the first or second round. To me it just says they havent bothered to prepare for the fight properly.

I'd agree that training sparring and technique is much more benificial than lifting weights but running and hill sprints are essential.

Just my opinion

I agree with that - unfortunately I've gassed before in one or two fights and it is very disappointing! Although probably didn't prepare properly in all aspects...
Recently, I haven't gassed at all, it may be more sparring beforehand (although don't think so from memory), or it may be more interval training. I find that crossfit type intensity training (done on my own in gym session) works really well at preparing me or it may be high intensity interval type MA training done in the club pre comp that really helped on the fitness side too for recent comps. I like the diversity of these as opposed to just hill sprints plus some of it would be using "technique" as part of the interval...

Tks,
S

Barry.Oglesby

First of all thanks very much everyone for the interest in the article.

Secondly I wrote that in response to a conversation I had with a friend so it was very much of the moment and doesn't necessarily reflect my total opinion on the subject. I'll follow it up with another article soon.

The learning curve in a new sport is steep, so the more time you spend doing it the better. That's the crux of the article. BJJ is what I do, so everything I do must feed that. Sometimes the right thing is to get stronger and fitter as this might be holding you back. Especially when it comes to work capacity (your ability to train at a certain intensity in a given time period). You may not be getting the most out of your sessions because you're not fit enough to. A fast way of getting fit is to train specifically for that.

But imagine a glass. This glass is full of everything you do- training, work, family, strength, conditioning, stretching, yoga or whatever. It's always full, only the mix of contents ever changes. No matter what the new thing is that you put in, it will displace something else. It has to. You only have 100% to give.

You might think can make that glass bigger by increasing your work capacity (conditioning) and hence increasing the amount of things you can do, but I don't think you can, not to any significant degree. At least not without a significant lifestyle change (ie. part-time to full time).

So for me it's quite simple, I want my glass to be as full as possible with Jiu Jitsu. I have to make hard decisions sometimes like when to take a session off and do mobility work instead as this will keep me on the mat for the week after, but this is still working towards the goal.

I think there are too many guys who think it's all about slapping tyres and swinging hammers, or if they're able to bench press X then their escapes will improve. If people put as much effort into drilling escapes as they do into bench pressing then they're going to improve much faster and in more significant ways.

Hanley

Just reading some of Joel Jamieson's posts on Sherdog, the question was asked why MA guys need to do specific S&C work when pad work, clinch work etc etc all feeds into their S&C, this is what he came up with...

Chris,

I think your question is valid and although it may seem simple, the answer is actually pretty complex. Let me see if I can provide you with an answer that makes sense.

First of all, the value of any strength and conditioning program is only the extent to which it specifically improves the perfomance in your sport and/or prevents injuries. There is no point in spending extra time doing something outside of practicing your skill unless it ultimately serves to improve your ability to display your skills. An intelligently designed strength and conditioning program will do exactly that by raising the functional potential of the athlete's motor abilities necessary for the display of skill.

The actual skill itself will always serve as the most specific form of conditioning and training, but what you don't realize is that you are already doing "extra strength and conditioning work" in the exercises and drills you mentioned. These drills and exercises are not part of the actual skill development, they are simply very specific strength and conditioning drills.

Strength training, plyometrics, conditioning drills, etc. are simply less specific but more intensive means used to accomplish the same thing. They are necessary because there is an upper limit to the physical adaptations you can achieve with the with skill related drills. At some point if you want to continue to improve you must provide more intense stimulus for the body to respond and adapt to.

Just as you will never set a world record in the 100m dash by just going out and running as fast as you can over and over again, you will never achieve the same level of speed and explosive power just by hitting thai pads or a heavy bag as you will when you raise your strength and rate of force development through specific strength training. The resistance used in specialized strength training provides a more intense stimulus to to the neurmuscular system that causes specific adaptations necessary to raise functional capacity to be explosive. This more intense stimulus is ultimately needed to achieve a higher and higher level of performance.

So the answer is that a low level most fighters probably will get quite a bit of strength and conditioning work through the drills and exercises that are part of practice, but after awhile more intense means are required to continue to raise the athlete's physical abilities. Additional strength and conditioning work is necessary because it raises the body's energy producing capacities in ways the skill practices cannot and ultimately will improve performance when done correctly. Unforunately a lot of programs aren't put together correctly and either don't really improve performance much, or they actually hinder it.

No you shoudn't run and lift all year long, you should develop a program that will improve your specific weaknesses by using whatever means and methods are necessary. It could mean running, swimming, lifting weights, plyometrics, who knows? Only you can figure out which physical abilities need the most improvement and then go about putting together a program to improve them.

Hope that answers your question.