**Spoilers** Series 6, Episode 8 - "Lets Kill Hitler"

Doctor DooM

mach1982 wrote: »

Ones question that I kept thinking about was , who was taking care of Mels when she was a kid,. .She said she regenerated in to toddler in New York. Also how old is River?

She escaped from the kids home the silence had her in in the first episode of the series- in New York.

pixelburp

Gah, there was a huge continuity error in that episode that never got resolved - that new coat of the Doctor! He discarded it by the end (plus it seems by the trailer for next week's episode, he's back to the regular coat) but nobody even batted an eyelid! Spent the whole episode staring at the coat; though mostly wondering where I could get one.

So, to the episode itself. Someone here already wondered if these more-complex plots are going to make the kids turn off, and I'm inclined to wonder the same thing myself. Even I was head-scratching a little over the chronology & timeline of River. I've been fairly ambivalent about the River Song arc, so I hope at least this is it tied-up to something resembling completion.

In any case, an exciting and enjoyable return of Who, it's like the gang were never away; it's funny, but I find myself just automatically assuming the script / dialogue will crackle, and it still does. Although, increasingly I'm noticing that Rory's getting all the good lines these days:
"Can you even ride a motorbike?"
"I expect I can; it's been one of those days"

Doctor DooM

I like Rory is becoming a little more man-of-action. It makes sense considering everything the character has been through.

mach1982

Doctor DooM wrote: »

She escaped from the kids home the silence had her in in the first episode of the series- in New York.

Yes . but Mels( before she regenerated in to River) was Amy and Rory's best friend they did not know she was their daughter , and it shows that they went to primary school and secondary school together. Who was looking after her , who went to parent and teacher meetings .

mach1982

pixelburp wrote: »

Gah, there was a huge continuity error in that episode that never got resolved - that new coat of the Doctor! He discarded it by the end (plus it seems by the trailer for next week's episode, he's back to the regular coat) but nobody even batted an eyelid! Spent the whole episode staring at the coat; though mostly wondering where I could get one.

So, to the episode itself. Someone here already wondered if these more-complex plots are going to make the kids turn off, and I'm inclined to wonder the same thing myself. Even I was head-scratching a little over the chronology & timeline of River. I've been fairly ambivalent about the River Song arc, so I hope at least this is it tied-up to something resembling completion.

In any case, an exciting and enjoyable return of Who, it's like the gang were never away; it's funny, but I find myself just automatically assuming the script / dialogue will crackle, and it still does. Although, increasingly I'm noticing that Rory's getting all the good lines these days:
"Can you even ride a motorbike?"
"I expect I can; it's been one of those days"

Last time there was a major continuity error , it end up that it was doctor from the future " Crash of Bizatuim" , one minute he has no coat the next he has one .

Doctor DooM

mach1982 wrote: »

Yes . but Mels( before she regenerated in to River) was Amy and Rory's best friend they did not know she was their daughter , and it shows that they went to primary school and secondary school together. Who was looking after her , who went to parent and teacher meetings .

I dunno, like you're never going to know every single possible corner of a question, but one would assume she was adopted by English people.

Yahew

pixelburp wrote: »

Gah, there was a huge continuity error in that episode that never got resolved - that new coat of the Doctor! He discarded it by the end (plus it seems by the trailer for next week's episode, he's back to the regular coat) but nobody even batted an eyelid! Spent the whole episode staring at the coat; though mostly wondering where I could get one.

No continuity error. Time had passed from when the doctor was saved to when they were on the hospital with River. Previous to that the doctor was in a Tux.

pixelburp

Yahew wrote: »

No continuity error. Time had passed from when the doctor was saved to when they were on the hospital with River. Previous to that the doctor was in a Tux.

Uhm, I'm actually just joking, I wasn't really bothered - just thought it funny he waltzed about in a new, slighty-trendier green coat & no one batted an eyelid.

Yahew

Heres a real conundrum though - what about the custard and fish fingers line. What did that mean?

Mahatma coat

That was Great
Altho the moment a red Corvette Stingray made an appearance in the middle of a welsh cornfield I kinda knew it was River.

<nerd Alert>
BTW if we're picking up on glaring continuity errors, the episode was set in 1938, yet River enters the Resturaunt with 2 MP40's which as the name would suggest werent designed til 1940 And no they werent MP36's they were most certainly MP40's
</nerd>

Crackin episode tho, Rory is getin a lot of really really good lines

Basq

Yahew wrote: »

Heres a real conundrum though - what about the custard and fish fingers line. What did that mean?

The first meeting of The Doctor and Amelia Pond..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo2RKAHu-kI

Yahew

Sure, I know what it referenced but what did it mean in the context of what was going on in the tardis with the holographic young amelia. It meant something. He was asking for help and she said that cryptic phrase. He smiled. It was a clue about something.

We also lost a few minutes of his life. He has 32 minutes- that is mentioned a lot ( why?) , and then next scene he was a few minutes from death, and dressed in a tux. Unlike the jacket at the beginning that change of dress might mean something i.e. did he go back to the wedding. Did he go back to Amelia Pond again. Or is it all just a red herring. anyway a few minutes are missing.

Mahatma coat

I think the fishfingers and Custard might have had something to do with Regeneration energies, Like Tennants Doctor and a nice Cup of tea.

Jessibelle

I... don't understand ...So she was brainwashed, but now she's not? How? Because he cured her with the power of love? Seriously? Brainwashing is the result of intense psychological programming (akin to torture), and takes years to undo. Even then, the damage is permanent. About the only thing they got right about it is that the damage they caused turned her into a manic, borderline psychopath throughout her younger life. And the greatest warrior the universe has known is thrown off by her enemy dying and others showing him loyalty?? Ughh... I really don't understand.... >_<

mach1982

When the guys in robot say they found the biggest war criminal , Melody Pond , a picture of Tardis came up, it said that was stolen , yes I know Doctor stole it, but what is the one thing every one in the Universe associates with the Doctor the Tradis . Maybe someone stole it from him , where is his Tardis in the " impossible astronaut" ?

They say that Melody Pond will kill Doctor and his death is a fix point in time and space it can not be rewritten. They also look surprised when she regenerate into River, did they know that River and Melody are the same . if the knew River was Melody , wouldn't be simpler to kill her in the Stromcage? Also who are the guys in the robot Time agents ? Could River be recaptured and brainwashed again to kill the doctor , as in impossible astronaut when River fires the gun at the astronaut , she says "of course not" when she misses , as if she already experience this ?

one other point is the Doctor in " lets Kill Hitler " the same Doctor, (different coat) maybe he is a future version where this already taken place that how new that Melody was going try an kill him . is this what River meant when she say to Rory in "Impossible astronaut " "That the day I met him he knew everything about me "

Killer_banana

Yahew wrote: »

Sure, I know what it referenced but what did it mean in the context of what was going on in the tardis with the holographic young amelia. It meant something. He was asking for help and she said that cryptic phrase. He smiled. It was a clue about something.

Well he kept asking Amelia to hlep him and the hologram just kept telling him it wasn't really her. He seemed to lose hope and that point and almost passed out. When it said 'Fish fingers and custard' I just took it as the TARDIS trying to give the Doctor hope. To motivate him to keep trying. After 'The Doctor's Wife' we know the TARDIS has some sentient qualities so I just took it as her not wanting her old friend to die. But I could be compellingly wrong, just my intepretation.

Absolutely brilliant episode. Loved every second of it. I wonder how long Hitler stayed in the cupboard. :P

So, when dya think we'll be able to buy sonic canes?

I want one...

Sonics2k

I have to admit I wasn't hugely impressed with the episode.

It was certainly enjoyable, and had its moments of great suspense.
However it felt somehow... disjointed.

Richard Dower

I watched thi ep. yesterday, muck....nonsensical mess, utter childish drivel. I was completely baffled, no clue wtf was going on.....only good thing was hottie Karen Gillan.....though she does come across snooty and stuck up.

Torchwood is excellent!....as in the BBC ones, Miracle Day is cack compared to the originals.

The Recliner

Richard Dower wrote: »

I watched thi ep. yesterday, muck....nonsensical mess, utter childish drivel. I was completely baffled, no clue wtf was going on.....only good thing was hottie Karen Gillan.....though she does come across snooty and stuck up.

Torchwood is excellent!....as in the BBC ones, Miracle Day is cack compared to the originals.

Did you not say in one of the Torchwood threads that you haven't watched Doctor Who

This episode is halfway through a season and both this season and last season have threads of the same story running through them, without watching the other episodes I wouldn't expect it to make sense to you

Sesudra

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I dunno, like you're never going to know every single possible corner of a question, but one would assume she was adopted by English people.

I assumed that she was picked up and adopted by the people who brainwashed her, brought to Leadsworth to grow up with Amy and Rory and wait for her chance to kill the Doctor. Otherwise,it'd mean a toddler somehow made her way from New York to England on her own!

One question I did have was why did Mels not try to kill the Doctor as soon as she saw him in the field? The brainwashing only seemed to kick in when she regenerated

cython

Sesudra wrote: »

I assumed that she was picked up and adopted by the people who brainwashed her, brought to Leadsworth to grow up with Amy and Rory and wait for her chance to kill the Doctor. Otherwise,it'd mean a toddler somehow made her way from New York to England on her own!

One question I did have was why did Mels not try to kill the Doctor as soon as she saw him in the field? The brainwashing only seemed to kick in when she regenerated

That's addressed in the episode, dismissed as that she had only just met him then or something along those lines.

Stark

Sonics2k wrote: »

I have to admit I wasn't hugely impressed with the episode.

It was certainly enjoyable, and had its moments of great suspense.
However it felt somehow... disjointed.

Likewise. Too many bit stories in there to maintain any sort of dramatic tension. The Hitler thing was a huge let-down as well. "Oh look, it's Hitler, put him in a cupboard, forget about him for the rest of the episode". Having it set in 1930s Berlin was completely pointless.

Penn

Stark wrote: »

Likewise. Too many bit stories in there to maintain any sort of dramatic tension. The Hitler thing was a huge let-down as well. "Oh look, it's Hitler, put him in a cupboard, forget about him for the rest of the episode". Having it set in 1930s Berlin was completely pointless.

I think the point was to emphasise how River is "the greatest war criminal in history" for killing The Doctor, even when compared to Hitler. Symbolises The Doctor's importance too.

Cormic

I enjoyed the episode but my kids were completely lost.

One question I have is how does River manage to travel in time? In the end of the episode she is shown in the year 5123...

Stark

Barrington wrote: »

I think the point was to emphasise how River is "the greatest war criminal in history" for killing The Doctor, even when compared to Hitler. Symbolises The Doctor's importance too.

Episode gets a big "Godwin's law" fail.

Das Kitty

Barrington wrote: »

I think the point was to emphasise how River is "the greatest war criminal in history" for killing The Doctor, even when compared to Hitler. Symbolises The Doctor's importance too.

It was also a way of having the Numskulls there to accidentally run into River whilst they were busy with Hitler

Penn

Stark wrote: »

Episode gets a big "Godwin's law" fail.

Actually no. Godwin's Law is when you compare someone on the internet to Hitler, when clearly they aren't as bad as Hitler.

This, as the mini-people are some sort of law enforcement bit, would suggest that River Song IS actually worse than Hitler for her crimes, that they would abandon him (well, they discovered they were too early to kill him anyway) and go after River Song instead.

Anyway, my main thought after watching the episode:

The Doctor we see die in The impossible Planet could now theoretically be Flesh or Tessalect. Now that The Doctor knows where and when he'll die, he now has two ways to have a lookalike

Stark

Barrington wrote: »

This, as the mini-people are some sort of law enforcement bit, would suggest that River Song IS actually worse than Hitler for her crimes, that they would abandon him (well, they discovered they were too early to kill him anyway) and go after River Song instead.

Except she's not. Hitler killed millions of people. River Song killed one man. Unless River Song was into some large scale ethnic cleansing that we don't know about, it's completely trite for Moffet to say that the Doctor is more important than millions of Jews etc.

MrVestek

Barrington wrote: »

Now that The Doctor knows where and when he'll die, he now has two ways to have a lookalike

I thought though that if he became aware that he crossed his own timeline that the universe would rip a hole in itself?

Also the Tesalecta wouldn't work as a body double as we saw him start to regenerate and as far as we know only the ganger doctor would be able to regenerate...

Penn

Stark wrote: »

Except she's not. Hitler killed millions of people. River Song killed one man. Unless River Song was into some large scale ethnic cleansing that we don't know about, it's completely trite for Moffet to say that the Doctor is more important than millions of Jews etc.

But how many times has The Doctor saved just Earth, let alone dozens of other planets? The Doctor dies, billions of others could die.

Moffat isn't saying The Doctor is more important than millions of Jews, and even The Doctor would be willing to sacrifice himself to save one Jewish person if he could. I think he's trying to say that in terms of time and space, killing The Doctor would have huge implications.

Just my opinion.

Achilles wrote: »

Also the Tesalecta wouldn't work as a body double as we saw him start to regenerate and as far as we know only the ganger doctor would be able to regenerate...

Well the Tessalecta is some sort of robot, so I don't think it's a big stretch to make it look like it's regenerating. As for the ganger, The Doctor we saw was shot in daylight. By the time they put him in the boat, set fire to it and pushed it out into the lake, it was dark. The ganger Doctor would have turned back into Flesh before that.

MrVestek

Barrington wrote: »

But how many times has The Doctor saved just Earth, let alone dozens of other planets? The Doctor dies, billions of others could die.

Moffat isn't saying The Doctor is more important than millions of Jews, and even The Doctor would be willing to sacrifice himself to save one Jewish person if he could. I think he's trying to say that in terms of time and space, killing The Doctor would have huge implications.

Just my opinion.



Well the Tessalecta is some sort of robot, so I don't think it's a big stretch to make it look like it's regenerating. As for the ganger, The Doctor we saw was shot in daylight. By the time they put him in the boat, set fire to it and pushed it out into the lake, it was dark. The ganger Doctor would have turned back into Flesh before that.

Not unless he had been in to the TARDIS and thus turned in to a 'real' person.

Penn

Good point actually, I didn't think of that

pixelburp

Going by some of the images seen in trailers for 6.5, I'm currently of the theory that the dead doctor is an alternate timeline one. I think moffats going to use that to get out of jail, while staying true to the quotes that the doc does indeed die

Yahew

Stark wrote: »

Except she's not. Hitler killed millions of people. River Song killed one man. Unless River Song was into some large scale ethnic cleansing that we don't know about, it's completely trite for Moffet to say that the Doctor is more important than millions of Jews etc.

No American program would have done that for sure. Interestingly the justice dept didnt seem to know all that much about Hitler. Since they are so far in the future, that might well make sense. Lots of genocides in the meantime.

Memnoch99

Definitely need to re watch it again but what was the reason behind Rivers comment ''Im going to wear lots of jumpers''? She says it just after regenerating.

Basq

Memnoch99 wrote: »

Definitely need to re watch it again but what was the reason behind Rivers comment ''Im going to wear lots of jumpers''? She says it just after regenerating.

To accentuate her breasts?

Stark

Could be a derision of the Doctor's typical post-regeneration dress sense.

deconduo

BaconZombie

Memnoch99 wrote: »

Definitely need to re watch it again but what was the reason behind Rivers comment ''Im going to wear lots of jumpers''? She says it just after regenerating.

Basq wrote: »

To accentuate her breasts?

I heard it as "Jodhpurs", so we was talking about wearing stuff to show off her ass.

ríomhaire

Craguls wrote: »

Anyone else reckon the whole

River giving up her regenerations/giving her regenerations to the doctor

will be used to circumvent the amount of times the Doctor can regenerate rule soon enough?

That's what I thought as soon as I saw what she was doing. It also reminded me of when Tennant threw all his regenerationness into his hand.

Cormic wrote: »

I enjoyed the episode but my kids were completely lost.

One question I have is how does River manage to travel in time? In the end of the episode she is shown in the year 5123...

The hospital where they dropped her off wasn't present day. I think the doctor/nurse/matron that was attending River was one of the cat people from New Earth so it was at least somewhere in the future. They could easily have dropped her in the early 52nd century so there's no need for timetravel between the two scenes. Other than that, she's resourceful. We've already seen her extorting a vortex manipulator from Dorium, do we need to see how she gets her hands on one every time?

deconduo wrote: »

Love it.





Ok for my own thoughts. Unmarked spoiler to come.

I have mixed feelings about this. For the most parts it was good but some things disappoint me. Everyone seemed a bit too detached. There was a lot of emotion at the end of a Good Man Goes to War but it seems to have evaporated. Surely Amy and Rory should be more distressed? Everyone seemed a bit understated over the whole lost child thing by the time this episode rolls around. Would have loved to see a bit more emotion over it. Matt Smith did a great performance when the Doctor was dying, but other than that there just seemed to be a general lack of emotion over the situation.

Mels being River wasn't really a shock and I'm not sure whether that was meant to be surprising or not but it all ended much sooner than I expected. I thought (and hoped) that brainwashed Melody trying to hunt and kill the Doctor being the plot for the remaining half of the series. I mean, the Silence's plan for the last season involved hijacking the TARDIS and destroying all of reality and the Alliance's plan to prevent this by building the Pandorica and a legend around it and luring the Doctor in with fake Romans and Rory and it was all pretty darn cool.

I know the series isn't over and we haven't seen the last of the Silence but their plan seems to have just gone away pretty quickly. We learn that they're raising Melody as a weapon to kill the Doctor, then she succeeds and is fixed through the power of love in the very next episode. Falls a bit flat doesn't it?

I know the record still says River killed him in Utah so at least the record believe that she's the Impossible Astronaut (even though she seemed as shocked as everyone else when he was shot) so we're not done here, but even so I think this was fixed too quickly.

Also pretty disappointed that Mels regenerated into the River we know. I was hoping that River being a time lady would mean we could have her change actress at some point and continue on long-term with the Doctor but oh well that's not too bad. Speaking of regeneration, River's ones seem pretty messed up. She regenerates into a toddler and then from a teenager into a mature woman. Is it because she's not a full timelord or because she regenerated too young or what? I guess we'll probably never find out.

Also the last season seemed very well planned out with everything wrapping up in a crazyawesome way but looked like it had all been planned in advance. This is the first time an episode has made me question Moffat's writing. Mels in particular. Should she not have been mentioned earlier? Seriously Amy's best friend who she named her daughter after and she just never happened to show up before or even be mentioned (especially when there must be so many crazy stories to relate about her). They could have mentioned Amy naming Melody after someone before or anything at all. This kind of crazy plot turn reminds me of Davies' run more than Moffat's style.

And so did River never spend any time in the Gamma Forests to get her name then? She only goes by River because that's the name the Doctor told her because she was called that when the Doctor met her? I don't mind timey-whimey explanations but please don't hint at a background involving the Gamma Forests and then not deliver. I do hope that the rest of the series makes everything I said sound completely stupid by actually bringing things together properly.

In order to finish this on a positive note though I must say that Rory was awesome.

mach1982

pixelburp wrote: »

Going by some of the images seen in trailers for 6.5, I'm currently of the theory that the dead doctor is an alternate timeline one. I think moffats going to use that to get out of jail, while staying true to the quotes that the doc does indeed die

I think River is recaptue and foreced to kill the Doctor , and goese willingly to be sentanced to the stomcage as kind of self punismnet . She can escape when ever she wants , she hvae proven it .She ask the doctor to return her to the stromcage .

MrVestek

mach1982 wrote: »

I think River is recaptue and foreced to kill the Doctor , and goese willingly to be sentanced to the stomcage as kind of self punismnet . She can escape when ever she wants , she hvae proven it .She ask the doctor to return her to the stromcage .

Forgive me for asking but is English your first languge?

Tallon

Achilles wrote: »

Forgive me for asking but is English your first languge?

What relevance is it?

MrVestek

I'm tying to understand what he was trying to say is all, I thought that if English wasn't his first language then I could PM the guy asking what he was trying to say then try and Google Translate it for myself. I'm just nosy about other people's theories is all :-)

Tallon

Achilles wrote: »

I'm tying to understand what he was trying to say is all, I thought that if English wasn't his first language then I could PM the guy asking what he was trying to say then try and Google Translate it for myself. I'm just nosy about other people's theories is all :-)

I can read it fine.

mach1982 wrote: »

I think River is recaptue and foreced to kill the Doctor , and goese willingly to be sentanced to the stomcage as kind of self punismnet . She can escape when ever she wants , she hvae proven it .She ask the doctor to return her to the stromcage .

I think River is recapture and forced to kill the Doctor , and goes willingly to be sentenced to the storm-cage as kind of self punishment . She can escape when ever she wants , she has proven it .She ask the doctor to return her to the storm cage

MrVestek

Ok then makes a slight bit more sense.

I don't think the theory is sound.

Sarn

I though it was a great episode. Lots to work out during it. Far superior than the current Torchwood run.

McLoughlin wrote: »

If you were going to kill the Doc you would want something that would inable his ability to regenerate so I presume what ever toxin was in the lipstick was able to do this.

The Doctor has a finite number of regenerations, he is currently on his last one (unless Melody has changed it with her regeneration donation).

McLoughlin

Sarn wrote: »

I though it was a great episode. Lots to work out during it. Far superior than the current Torchwood run.



The Doctor has a finite number of regenerations, he is currently on his last one (unless Melody has changed it with her regeneration donation).

No he hasn't he has 12 regenerations 13 incartnations in all but that is a limit imposed by the Time Lords, The Master used up all of his 12 regenerations but under a few differant occasions he got new regenerations so the Doctor can have more than 12 regenerations now.

ríomhaire

McLoughlin wrote: »

No he hasn't he has 12 regenerations 13 incartnations in all but that is a limit imposed by the Time Lords, The Master used up all of his 12 regenerations but under a few differant occasions he got new regenerations so the Doctor can have more than 12 regenerations now.

Yeah but they do need to explain how he's going to get more. I thought the might quietly ignore the limited regenerations thing and just let him regenerate more without explaining it but River using up the rest of hers clearly shows Moffat is acknowledging the limit.