Mayo GAA Discussion Thread

keane2097

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well, there was certainly no conviction in the effort he made. When a goalie decides to come for that kind of ball, he must do so with the determination that,come hell or high water, he will get to punch the ball way out of danger.

I think most people seem to be thinking he should have stayed on his line. I've been very vocal in the past in my belief that GAA goalies come off their line way too often but I thought Hennelly had to come out in that situation with the angle on the ball in and how close it was dropping to the goal.

Assuming he had to come out it's just three guys going for a high ball, it's pretty much in the lap of the gods - Cafferkey is as much at fault for not getting a hand on it as Hennelly is, and I don't really think there's such a thing as "fault" in that situation tbh - just good luck.

stdidit

keane2097 wrote: »

Still images don't tell anything when it comes to sports. The ball ends up going from Brogan's hand downwards so there's not necessarily anything wrong with Hennelly's positioning in that picture. Not saying his positioning is correct either, just that you can't tell from a still.

l

I actually think you can tell a lot from that picture. If a keeper comes for the ball he simply has to get it and as the picture is taken, Brogan is making his contact with the ball while Hennelly is nowhere near close enough to it so he should have either come earlier and taken man, ball, everything with him or else he should waited on his line.

yop

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well, there was certainly no conviction in the effort he made. When a goalie decides to come for that kind of ball, he must do so with the determination that,come hell or high water, he will get to punch the ball way out of danger.

Exactly my point. He was no where near that ball. As a keeper for 10 years myself that image is shocking, when the ball lands between the 3 players IF the keeper comes then he is the man who should be higher that the other 2 or at the very least the same height.
He made the wrong decision on that one, again a young keeper, but it was a costly mistake.

Gally05

I am gutted regarding the loss at the weekend ....we lost , u can analysis it till the cows come home but the simple fact is Sam is in dublin and there is nothing we can do about it now..Keep our heads held high and move on.

Roll on next year ...

Barlett

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This time last year there was a good bit of positivity from Mayo folk over the way the final had played out, going 7 down early in the first half and only ended up loosing by 4 seemed to give people some sort of sense of a 'moral victory' in the final analysis

Personally I was not that happy as I though that day was a cast iron opportunity to win it all and an opportunity lost.

But what are peoples opinions now.
This year we only lost by 1 and where in the game for far longer than we have been in a final since '96 or '97
And we were a dominant team all season
So are people as positive about 2014 now and they were about 2013 then ?

We're all disappointed now, but if the whole team and backroom management stick with it for one more crack under Horan I think we'll be very optimistic come January.

There really wasn't much in that game on Sunday and we are without doubt the 2nd best team in the country.

I think they'll win a fourth Connaught title and once you make it to Quarter Final weekend it's a different ball game.

What did prove to be our undoing was the forward line and I don't think it's because we have a lack of forwards it's just many were unfit or out of form.

Moran, O'Connor and Freeman (as it turns out) all had question marks over their fitness...Andy didn't play a full 70 minutes all year. McLoughlin had a disappointing year in comparison to 2012 and Alan Dillon well I don't know, I think he struggled in a lot of games this year, but then he had a few niggling injuries coming into the campaign.

I think Higgins should remain in the half-forward line.

I saw nothing this year to make me think Mayo will be outside the top 4 next year. I suppose the real question mark will be can they motivate themselves to go again. I hope so

GBXI

ultrapercy wrote: »

The incedent in the Donegal final was different as Clarke was forced to come to stop Murphy gathering the ball. To me Clarke did well in that situation. Hennelly made a poor and costly decision for the goal on Sunday. I don't want to castigate the man, mistakes happen and goalkeeper mistakes are always highlighted and he has been very good besides. My main point is about the general soft nature of the goals Mayo concede in AI finals. Its hard to win when you let the opposition have largely unearned goals.

So we can agree that Clarke certainly was not a big loss to Mayo at the weekend. He wasn't missed at all (which was your main point if I remember).

The 2 incidents are so alike. Clarke had less of a reason to come out last year than Hennelly this year, as the ball was a lot closer to goal when it came down this year than last. Clarke completely missed the ball, took out Caff, and Murphy (inexplicably) punched over the bar.

Yes, it's hard to win when you concede soft goals.

Just a note on the 1st Dublin goal (nothing to do with how the game panned out). It was actually an own-goal, palmed into the net by Ger Caff, tho all the credit is going to Brogan for the goal.

ultrapercy

GBXI wrote: »

So we can agree that Clarke certainly was not a big loss to Mayo at the weekend. He wasn't missed at all (which was your main point if I remember).

The 2 incidents are so alike. Clarke had less of a reason to come out last year than Hennelly this year, as the ball was a lot closer to goal when it came down this year than last. Clarke completely missed the ball, took out Caff, and Murphy (inexplicably) punched over the bar.

Yes, it's hard to win when you concede soft goals.

Just a note on the 1st Dublin goal (nothing to do with how the game panned out). It was actually an own-goal, palmed into the net by Ger Caff, tho all the credit is going to Brogan for the goal.

Oh no Im sorry we cant agree on that at all. Clarkes loss was crucial. Im very sorry if I was unclear about that.

Gerry91

Interestingly that's two "palmed" goals the Dubs have got in the latter two matches now.

I'm not going to include Bernard's second I'm more talking about a high ball coming in and a forward getting something on it. I think the high ball into full forwards is a very useful tactic and with Freeman fit I think it's one we should look at employing a lot more next year.

It was never going to be effective with Freeman going off, though as I've said there was arguably a case for lobbing one of the big men in full for the last ten.

Interestingly the two Dublin goals I'm talking about involved the full/corner back looking a bit shaky under the ball. It can be quite an effective tactic as even if the FF can get anything to it at all a corner forward might be waiting to pounce

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

On another note, thought this article was a pretty good response to all the overreaction and blame-gaming that's been going on in the aftermath of the game.

http://spailpin.blogspot.ie/2013/09/mayo-football-is-alive-and-well.html

Yes that is a good article, I am not surprised that Liston's opinion is as it is, he has been mentioning the lack of marquee forward all year, he is consistent to be fair to him.

As others have said the health of the forwards have been a problem all year, remember Dillion is not 100% either with that long term stomach problem he has been carrying, and their luck just ran out totally when Freeman was lost.

yop

GBXI wrote: »

So we can agree that Clarke certainly was not a big loss to Mayo at the weekend. He wasn't missed at all (which was your main point if I remember).

The 2 incidents are so alike. Clarke had less of a reason to come out last year than Hennelly this year, as the ball was a lot closer to goal when it came down this year than last. Clarke completely missed the ball, took out Caff, and Murphy (inexplicably) punched over the bar.

Yes, it's hard to win when you concede soft goals.

Just a note on the 1st Dublin goal (nothing to do with how the game panned out). It was actually an own-goal, palmed into the net by Ger Caff, tho all the credit is going to Brogan for the goal.

No he was a massive loss and yes it had a massive impact on the game.
IF he didn't score the goal we would have been 4 points ahead.... Mayo had dominated the game yet Dublin were back in it, how is that not a massive impact. It was a huge physiological blow to the team and fans and as you will remember it lifted the Hill immensely.

Gerry91

keane2097 wrote: »

Still images don't tell anything when it comes to sports. The ball ends up going from Brogan's hand downwards so there's not necessarily anything wrong with Hennelly's positioning in that picture. Not saying his positioning is correct either, just that you can't tell from a still.

On another note, thought this article was a pretty good response to all the overreaction and blame-gaming that's been going on in the aftermath of the game.

http://spailpin.blogspot.ie/2013/09/mayo-football-is-alive-and-well.html

No respect for Liston as an analyst anyway and this is equally rubbish talk on his part.

Goes on all year about needing a marquee forward, then of course when Mayo lose he'll come out with I told you so.

As I said, hypothetically had COC gone for goal and it somehow went in, would he have automatically become a marquee forward in Liston's eyes or would he swallow his pride?

The same man said Mayo's FB line was a weak point before the Galway match despite carrying two All-Stars. A grain of salt is generally requaired when reading him

Nerdlingr

who was number 10 for mayo lads? his decision making was sh*te yesterday.

GBXI

yop wrote: »

No he was a massive loss and yes it had a massive impact on the game.
IF he didn't score the goal we would have been 4 points ahead.... Mayo had dominated the game yet Dublin were back in it, how is that not a massive impact. It was a huge physiological blow to the team and fans and as you will remember it lifted the Hill immensely.

I've already said that the 1st Dublin goal was a big blow and a mistake by Hennelly.

How was Clarke a massive loss? I've explained a couple of pages back why I think Hennelly is a better keeper. You're saying that Clarke doesn't make errors of the same ilk? I'm pointing out the exact same error that occurred at the same stage last year.

Nobody I have spoken to, or any pundit felt Clarke was a loss on Sunday.

Gerry91

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes that is a good article, I am not surprised that Liston's opinion is as it is, he has been mentioning the lack of marquee forward all year, he is consistent to be fair to him.

As others have said the health of the forwards have been a problem all year, remember Dillion is not 100% either with that long term stomach problem he has been carrying, and their luck just ran out totally when Freeman was lost.

We really haven't had luck with injuries this year that's for sure.

To lose two GK's in a week is mad and you have COC, Dillon clearly not fit v Ros or during league, Moran x2, Doherty who started 2013 brilliantly for DCU and Mayo in league and Mickey C our best forward v Donegal and Dublin last year

Losing Cunniffe and Freeman in the final, the former being more detrimental than would initially appear, as it meant moving Higgins out of CF.

Granted it didn't seem to affect us (well I do think Freeman and Cunniffe affected us the last day) all year but it would be great if we enjoyed a relatively injury free squad in 2014, to help build a consistent starting 15.

Sounds dramatic and probably a tad desperate but of players used the last day- Cunniffe, Vaughan, Dillon, COC, Moran, Freeman, Conroy, COC, Doherty, barry Moran all picked up an injury (were injured) at some stage in the championship some at more important times and more severe than others

That's half the players that played I think. Lost GK from last year too

Gerry91

Nerdlingr wrote: »

who was number 10 for mayo lads? his decision making was sh*te yesterday.

McLoughlin

Probably our POY in 2012

He's a great worker and good for a turnover but his decision making was shocking sadly. And not for the first time all year

He had a brutal league but I didn't think much of it at the time

He's young though- was u21 in 2010 iirc so is an 89 so will be only turning 25 next year

Actually Tod made a good point earlier in thread- he could be a very effective back. He loses too much ball in the middle third and is far too inconsistent shooting for a wing forward.

Played back all his life, remember seeing him in the number 4 shirt at minor in 06 or 07 iirc

ultrapercy

GBXI wrote: »

I've already said that the 1st Dublin goal was a big blow and a mistake by Hennelly.

How was Clarke a massive loss? I've explained a couple of pages back why I think Hennelly is a better keeper. You're saying that Clarke doesn't make errors of the same ilk? I'm pointing out the exact same error that occurred at the same stage last year.

Nobody I have spoken to, or any pundit felt Clarke was a loss on Sunday.

Well your talking to 2 people now, if Yop doesn't mind me speaking for him also, who feel Clarke was a loss. Not having your first choice player in any position is a loss. How could it not be?

GBXI

ultrapercy wrote: »

Well your talking to 2 people now, if Yop doesn't mind me speaking for him also, who feel Clarke was a loss. Not having your first choice player in any position is a loss. How could it not be?

Ok, so why was he a loss then?

Syferus

Hennelly was definitely at fault for the goal. Sure he ended up punching Caffrekey in the head! There was nothing he could do in that position, he needed to either be on top of Brogan or on the line, not caught in no-man's land between those two positions.

Made up for it with some stellar shot-stopping, though.

Gerry91

Was just thinking earlier Keegan got booked in nearly every match this year iirc

Some of them harsh I think, but not a great habit, especially with this black card coming in

I fear for Aidan more so though, can see teams winding him up no end

Gerry91

A high ball coming in like that does cause havoc. And in fairness Hennelly has a quick decision wrt how to take action. Should be doing better though but alas

Anyone can make mistakes though. Durkan was super solid all last year, that "attempt" at coming out to stop Vaughan in the QF was laughable in the extreme

ultrapercy

GBXI wrote: »

Ok, so why was he a loss then?

I believe he was a loss because I believe he is a better goalkeeper than Hennelly. Mayos first choice goalkeeper was not available to them and that's a loss as I see it.

Nerdlingr

Gerry91 wrote: »

McLoughlin

Probably our POY in 2012

He's a great worker and good for a turnover but his decision making was shocking sadly. And not for the first time all year

He had a brutal league but I didn't think much of it at the time

He's young though- was u21 in 2010 iirc so is an 89 so will be only turning 25 next year

Actually Tod made a good point earlier in thread- he could be a very effective back. He loses too much ball in the middle third and is far too inconsistent shooting for a wing forward.

Played back all his life, remember seeing him in the number 4 shirt at minor in 06 or 07 iirc

He was wrecking my head all game, tried and tried again all day to beat his man on the outside but didnt have the pace to do it. Was then cutting back inside either giving the ball away or getting caught in possession. Seemed to make poor decisions all game, was suprised to see him left on. (but i guess the same could be said for alot of the mayo team re. decision making). They just seemed to over-run the ball or carry it into tackles. Pity, ye started the game really well, leaving the ball do the work. I was hoping ye'd finally win it this year.

Gerry91

Having no real competent left footed free taker can be a hindrance too. They'd surely be worth a couple of points

Not much you can do though, is it best allow Cillian take these too? McL clearly isn't confident anyway, bringing Hennelly up was strange I thought for that, granted it was a bit out

Must be great from a Dublin POV knowing basically any free on that side, even from distance, will be converted and Bernard will get most the other side

yop

GBXI wrote: »

Ok, so why was he a loss then?

He is more experienced, he is a taller man has a bigger physical frame and is a massive shot stopper. He commands his area much better than Hennelly.

yop

Nerdlingr wrote: »

who was number 10 for mayo lads? his decision making was sh*te yesterday.

He has had a poor poor 2013 to be honest, I think he is burnt out. He was by far our best player last season and robbed off an All Star. I think he needs a winter off to recharge.

jmayo

Gerry91 wrote: »

...
I've heard this quite a bit over the last few days and I couldn't disagree more. I wouldn't be this gutted and dejected if I felt they weren't good enough. This team is well and truly good enough to win an All Ireland and were well and truly good enough to beat that Dublin team we saw on sunday. This one'll take a while to shake off

Well I have to ask if they were good enough then why didn't they do it?

Had COC gone for a goal at the end, imagine that somehow the ball went in. Would a simple kick of a ball have then elevated us to good enough? We played miserably yet lost by the kick of a ball

The team is good enough and is good enough to win it next year.

Not performing on sunday is seriously sickening. I still can't understand it

To me not performing when it matters means you are not good enough.

The only scorer from play for the last 25 minutes was Andy Moran.
Look at the scorers for the day.
O’Connor 8 points all frees, Moran got 1-2, Keegan got 2,
Seamie O'Shea and Higgins got 1 each.
Higgins played half the match in defense.

Take out a guy with serious shoulder problems and a guy slowed up since coming back from horrific injury and you got what from the rest ?

Look at the semi final where the forwards were stagnant for most of the first half and it took 15 minutes to get a score from play.
Barrett and Keegan had to show them how to do it.
Colm Boyle was the guy fouled for the penalty.

How much of Mayos scoreline all the way through the championship has been contributed by the backs.
Keegan has scored more than most of them.
The backs were the ones to contribute the scores when it mattered as against Tyrone.

How we achieved so much this year is down to our backs and expecting them to carry us over the line while carrying a few passengers up front is really unfair.

The ones I really feel sorry for are the guys who always deliver.

Defiler Of The Coffin

yop wrote: »

He has had a poor poor 2013 to be honest, I think he is burnt out. He was by far our best player last season and robbed off an All Star. I think he needs a winter off to recharge.

He had a poor year by his own standards, himself and Dillon were way under par on Sunday and it hurt us badly. The raw talent is there though, time off might be just what he needs

Syferus

yop wrote: »

He is more experienced, he is a taller man has a bigger physical frame and is a massive shot stopper. He commands his area much better than Hennelly.

Clarke would have done well to make the stops Hennelly did make. Maybe he saves the first Brogan goal but it's a stretch to say he'd have made all three of those saves too.

The keeper crisis didn't really effect Mayo at all this year. If Hennelly spends the winter working on his free-taking he could easily keep his jersey next season.

GBXI

yop wrote: »

He is more experienced, he is a taller man has a bigger physical frame and is a massive shot stopper. He commands his area much better than Hennelly.

That doesn't answer me as to how he was a loss on Sunday. He just wasn't.

Hennelly is a better shot stopper. Hennelly's kick-outs and distribution from the hand are at level above Clarke. Both are equal commanding their area and under high-balls.

Rob also has the advantage of being able to kick a free. And if improves on this he'll be an even bigger asset.

yop

Syferus wrote: »

Clarke would have done well to make the stops Hennelly did make. Maybe he saves the first Brogan goal but it's a stretch to say he'd have made all three of those saves too.

The keeper crisis didn't really effect Mayo at all this year. If Hennelly spends the winter working on his free-taking he could easily keep his jersey next season.

Clarke made massive stops against Dublin in the semi and Donegal in the final. Of course each situation is different but I wouldn't have any doubts he would have made them saves.

Defiler Of The Coffin

The forwards badly need a shake up. New players and coaching. Leave Higgins up there and perhaps play McLoughlin in the backs. Throw Barry Moran in as well. The warning signs were there after the Tyrone match but they weren't heeded. All this talk about needing 'marquee' forwards is just a cliché that gets thrown out every time Mayo look shaky up front, they need to play as a tight cohesive unit, and Moran and O'Connor being fully-fit next year will give us a good foundation for improvement. Freeman has made serious improvements this year also and will play a crucial role in any comeback next year.

Our tactics need to be looked at as well. Perhaps Doherty should have been on from the start. Every decision that was made in the second half seemed to make things worse. Carolan and Varley had little impact. The midfield seemed to give up tracking Cluxton's KOs. Aidan O'Shea should probably have gone up to the forwards and swept up high ball. Too often we were pushed out into the wings, Conroy's usual stomping ground but Dublin had us easily contained there. Granted we were very unlucky in that Freeman and Cunniffe had to go off, necessitating Higgin's move back but who was supposed to be marking Bastick when he came on, he didn't waste any time setting up their second goal.

All in all just two forwards scoring from play isn't good enough and will never win you an AI. Donegal had their defence nailed down solid in 2011 and seriously concentrated on attack in 2012. Mayo need to do the same in 2013.

yop

GBXI wrote: »

That doesn't answer me as to how he was a loss on Sunday. He just wasn't.

Hennelly is a better shot stopper. Hennelly's kick-outs and distribution from the hand are at level above Clarke. Both are equal commanding their area and under high-balls.

Rob also has the advantage of being able to kick a free. And if improves on this he'll be an even bigger asset.

Able to kick frees... how did that go for us last Sunday?
He lacks experience as I said previously, has to learn that, but last Sunday he was at the root cause of the 1st goal.

If Clarke was fit he would have been in goal. Mores the pity

yop

jmayo wrote: »

To me not performing when it matters means you are not good enough.

The only scorer from play for the last 25 minutes was Andy Moran.
Look at the scorers for the day.
O’Connor 8 points all frees, Moran got 1-2, Keegan got 2,
Seamie O'Shea and Higgins got 1 each.
Higgins played half the match in defense.

Take out a guy with serious shoulder problems and a guy slowed up since coming back from horrific injury and you got what from the rest ?

Look at the semi final where the forwards were stagnant for most of the first half and it took 15 minutes to get a score from play.
Barrett and Keegan had to show them how to do it.
Colm Boyle was the guy fouled for the penalty.

How much of Mayos scoreline all the way through the championship has been contributed by the backs.
Keegan has scored more than most of them.
The backs were the ones to contribute the scores when it mattered as against Tyrone.

How we achieved so much this year is down to our backs and expecting them to carry us over the line while carrying a few passengers up front is really unfair.

The ones I really feel sorry for are the guys who always deliver.

Alan Brogan, 2-3, take him out of the Dublin team and we would have won

keane2097

stdidit wrote: »

I actually think you can tell a lot from that picture. If a keeper comes for the ball he simply has to get it and as the picture is taken, Brogan is making his contact with the ball while Hennelly is nowhere near close enough to it so he should have either come earlier and taken man, ball, everything with him or else he should waited on his line.

That argument has never made sense to me - "if he comes for it he has to get it".

If he has to come for it he has to come for it whether he gets it or not. I thought at the time he had to come for it as I said because of the flight of the ball and the position of the two players ahead of him.

If you have to go for it and you make the correct decision to go for it you've got that part of your job right. Adding in that you also have to get it, I dunno, just seems too much to demand from a goalkeeper who unlike soccer doesn't have any advantage in competing for high balls with other players.

If he's in a situation where he has to come for it he's been left in a really bad spot by his defence in one way or another, as they've forced him into a situation where he's no more a favourite to win the ball then anyone else.

If he has to come for it the only thing he can fully control is the decision to come or not, after that he has no more right or obligation to win the ball than whoever else he's challenging for it with.

EDIT: Just to add, in coming for it he should have been quicker off his line and should have challenged for the ball better, but I don't think he's automatically at fault for coming off his line and not getting it - the fault is farther back the line with the players who let it get to that situation.

Gerry91

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

The forwards badly need a shake up. New players and coaching. Leave Higgins up there and perhaps play McLoughlin in the backs. Throw Barry Moran in as well. The warning signs were there after the Tyrone match but they weren't heeded. All this talk about needing 'marquee' forwards is just a cliché that gets thrown out every time Mayo look shaky up front, they need to play as a tight cohesive unit, and Moran and O'Connor being fully-fit next year will give us a good foundation for improvement. Freeman has made serious improvements this year also and will play a crucial role in any comeback next year.

Our tactics need to be looked at as well. Perhaps Doherty should have been on from the start. Every decision that was made in the second half seemed to make things worse. Carolan and Varley had little impact. The midfield seemed to give up tracking Cluxton's KOs. Aidan O'Shea should probably have gone up to the forwards and swept up high ball. Too often we were pushed out into the wings, Conroy's usual stomping ground but Dublin had us easily contained there. Granted we were very unlucky in that Freeman and Cunniffe had to go off, necessitating Higgin's move back but who was supposed to be marking Bastick when he came on, he didn't waste any time setting up their second goal.

All in all just two forwards scoring from play isn't good enough and will never win you an AI. Donegal had their defence nailed down solid in 2011 and seriously concentrated on attack in 2012. Mayo need to do the same in 2013.

Good post just two slight points though. Who do you put Barry Moran in for? SOS had a super season I thought. He'd be no use in the forwards

Great to have someone of Barry's quality to call from the bench

Also, Varley won two frees when he came on. I wouldn't be his greatest fan but he probably had the most effective cameo of everyone

Conroy was a real disappointment, Carolan didn't get into the game at all

keane2097

Gerry91 wrote: »

No respect for Liston as an analyst anyway and this is equally rubbish talk on his part.

Goes on all year about needing a marquee forward, then of course when Mayo lose he'll come out with I told you so.

As I said, hypothetically had COC gone for goal and it somehow went in, would he have automatically become a marquee forward in Liston's eyes or would he swallow his pride?

The same man said Mayo's FB line was a weak point before the Galway match despite carrying two All-Stars. A grain of salt is generally requaired when reading him

Agree with him about the Mayo full back line no matter how many plastic baubles they have. I had an argument on this thread before the year kicked off that Cafferkey isn't top class and would stand by it.

GBXI

yop wrote: »

Able to kick frees... how did that go for us last Sunday?
He lacks experience as I said previously, has to learn that, but last Sunday he was at the root cause of the 1st goal.

If Clarke was fit he would have been in goal. Mores the pity

Ya he missed the free but Clarke wouldn't even have been brought up to take the thing in the 1st place because he doesn't have the ability to put it over. Hennelly does, as he showed with the beauty he scored v Tyrone. Hence Hennelly being the better free-taker. He is also more agile than Clarke and a lot quicker, which matters when trying to run around an incoming forward and laying the ball off to a team-mate.

He'll get the experience over the next few years if he chooses to stay. But his inexperience didn't matter this year, he's been excellent.

Clarke would have been in goal all right but only because Hennelly opted out.

I'm delighted Clarke wasn't fit because Hennelly's a better keeper.

yop

GBXI wrote: »

Ya he missed the free but Clarke wouldn't even have been brought up to take the thing in the 1st place because he doesn't have the ability to put it over. Hennelly does, as he showed with the beauty he scored v Tyrone. Hence Hennelly being the better free-taker. He is also more agile than Clarke and a lot quicker, which matters when trying to run around an incoming forward and laying the ball off to a team-mate.

He'll get the experience over the next few years if he chooses to stay. But his inexperience didn't matter this year, he's been excellent.

Clarke would have been in goal all right but only because Hennelly opted out.

I'm delighted Clarke wasn't fit because Hennelly's a better keeper.

IF he was then he wouldn't have made the wrong decision with that ball in. Simples.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Gerry91 wrote: »

Good post just two slight points though. Who do you put Barry Moran in for? SOS had a super season I thought. He'd be no use in the forwards

Great to have someone of Barry's quality to call from the bench

Also, Varley won two frees when he came on. I wouldn't be his greatest fan but he probably had the most effective cameo of everyone

Conroy was a real disappointment, Carolan didn't get into the game at all

True about Varley, I just found the lack of scores from the subs very frustrating (also frustrating was Doherty's late arrival, from the restart onwards it was obvious we were in serious trouble), especially when Dublin were able to unload serious players from the bench and early on as well, we just didn't have anything to respond with). Perhaps we are over represented in midfield but it's a shame to have Moran on the bench, has he ever played half forward? Still, knowing our luck next year one of the O'Sheas will be injured and this discussion will be moot. I'm surprised that Doherty didn't get more game time this year.

keane2097

yop wrote: »

IF he was then he wouldn't have made the wrong decision with that ball in. Simples.

Like with any sport, a player's contribution is the sum of his positive and negative contributions. I think asserting that the negative contribution of the first goal outweighs the positive contributions of the several very creditable saves he made is very, very harsh.

As a neutral (probably wanted Dublin to win slightly if only because I thought they would pre-match), I thought Hennelly was a massively positive influence overall. Even factoring the gameflow argument and all that, I don't think it was as swingy a goal as you seem to, with Mayo going straight up the other end and scoring a good point. They got the next three points I think actually? I don't think they looked rattled at all from the goal, it wasn't the spark that brought Dublin into the game.

Dublin gradually worked their way back into the game independently of the goal. With that in mind, the saves he made later were more instrumental in keeping Mayo in range than conceding the first goal was in keeping Dublin in range.

Defiler Of The Coffin

GBXI wrote: »

I'm delighted Clarke wasn't fit because Hennelly's a better keeper.

Disagree with this one here, Hennelly might have gone off last year on his own bat but I would have Clarke between the posts any day of the week. His KOs had improved since last year and could seriously have made a difference on Sunday

GBXI

yop wrote: »

IF he was then he wouldn't have made the wrong decision with that ball in. Simples.

How do you know? As I said, Clarke made the exact same mistake in the final last year. And him an experienced keeper

MaroonAndGreen

Do we need more scoring forwards? Yes we do. But whether we have them is a different story. Kevin McStay said today in his article in the Mayo News that its as simple as looking at the lads who score alot for their clubs and trying to see can they do it at Inter County level.

But who do we have at club level that isnt being given a chance?

1. Evan Regan from Ballina, scores alot for the club but hasnt seen any action really for Mayo.
2. Aidan Kilcoyne from Knockmore, another serial scorer at club level.
3. James Shaugnessy, Mayo U21 who is Claremorris' best forward and scores alot but hasnt seen Mayo Senior action.
4. Alan Murphy, another who scores bucketloads for Ballinrobe.
5. Mark Ronaldson, still Shrule/Glencorrib's only real class forward, and is scoring for fun for them, doesnt seem to be getting a chance with Mayo?

I cant pinpoint any other options that arent already in the panel?

I know Regan and Shaugnessy will get their chance as they are still U21, but I think theres alot to be said about giving Murphy and in particular Ronaldson and Kilcoyne a chance.

Ronaldson and Kilcoyne are consistently year after year two of the top scorers in Club Championship and league, and are certaintly more natural scorers than Varley, Doherty etc.

What ye think lads?

stdidit

keane2097 wrote: »

That argument has never made sense to me - "if he comes for it he has to get it".

If he has to come for it he has to come for it whether he gets it or not. I thought at the time he had to come for it as I said because of the flight of the ball and the position of the two players ahead of him.

If you have to go for it and you make the correct decision to go for it you've got that part of your job right. Adding in that you also have to get it, I dunno, just seems too much to demand from a goalkeeper who unlike soccer doesn't have any advantage in competing for high balls with other players.

If he's in a situation where he has to come for it he's been left in a really bad spot by his defence in one way or another, as they've forced him into a situation where he's no more a favourite to win the ball then anyone else.

If he has to come for it the only thing he can fully control is the decision to come or not, after that he has no more right or obligation to win the ball than whoever else he's challenging for it with.

EDIT: Just to add, in coming for it he should have been quicker off his line and should have challenged for the ball better, but I don't think he's automatically at fault for coming off his line and not getting it - the fault is farther back the line with the players who let it get to that situation.

I dont think he had to come for it. Cafferkey has an inch or two on Brogan so I think there was very little chance of Brogan getting a clean enough fist to beat the keeper if he had waited on his line.
I wouldnt be too critical of him as it was a tough decision to make in a split second, but ultimately he got it wrong. It happens, but fair play to him he didnt let it get to him, and went on to have a very good game besides.

Defiler Of The Coffin

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Do we need more scoring forwards? Yes we do. But whether we have them is a different story. Kevin McStay said today in his article in the Mayo News that its as simple as looking at the lads who score alot for their clubs and trying to see can they do it at Inter County level.

But who do we have at club level that isnt being given a chance?

1. Evan Regan from Ballina, scores alot for the club but hasnt seen any action really for Mayo.
2. Aidan Kilcoyne from Knockmore, another serial scorer at club level.
3. James Shaugnessy, Mayo U21 who is Claremorris' best forward and scores alot but hasnt seen Mayo Senior action.
4. Alan Murphy, another who scores bucketloads for Ballinrobe.
5. Mark Ronaldson, still Shrule/Glencorrib's only real class forward, and is scoring for fun for them, doesnt seem to be getting a chance with Mayo?

I cant pinpoint any other options that arent already in the panel?

I know Regan and Shaugnessy will get their chance as they are still U21, but I think theres alot to be said about giving Murphy and in particular Ronaldson and Kilcoyne a chance.

Ronaldson and Kilcoyne are consistently year after year two of the top scorers in Club Championship and league, and are certaintly more natural scorers than Varley, Doherty etc.

What ye think lads?

Ronaldson was dropped by Horan before right, then went off to Australia for a bit? Could be worth revisiting but IIRC he wasn't a big player, would need conditioning before being brought back to the fold

MaroonAndGreen

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Ronaldson was dropped by Horan before right, then went off to Australia for a bit? Could be worth revisiting but IIRC he wasn't a big player, would need conditioning before being brought back to the fold

Not sure of the past situation, but looking at some of the scores he posts for Shrule/Glencorrib he could be an option maybe.

The squad needs a fresh face or two again now I think, especially after this disappointment

yop

GBXI wrote: »

How do you know? As I said, Clarke made the exact same mistake in the final last year. And him an experienced keeper

Nope, look again at the incident and tell us what happened?
Tell us what Moran said about Clarkes save and what impact it had on this season.

As I said, from a keepers point of view, he made the wrong decision and changed the direction and impetuous of the game at that point of time and it probably had a bearing on the result.

I don't minimize his following saves, as I said they were massive saves, but thats his role within the team.

yop

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Not sure of the past situation, but looking at some of the scores he posts for Shrule/Glencorrib he could be an option maybe.

The squad needs a fresh face or two again now I think, especially after this disappointment

Its strange that he hasn't been included, Alan Murphy clocked up some massive scores all season and Jimmy Kileen from Garrymore has been consistently in the top scorers and Mayo News team of the year for the last 3-5 years.
While a player can be top notch at club its that step to the next level where it breaks down.
Wasn't Ciaran McDonald averaging 7 points a game yet was left off the panel, though I know there was a LOT more to that drama.

GBXI

yop wrote: »

Nope, look again at the incident and tell us what happened?
Tell us what Moran said about Clarkes save and what impact it had on this season.

As I said, from a keepers point of view, he made the wrong decision and changed the direction and impetuous of the game at that point of time and it probably had a bearing on the result.

I don't minimize his following saves, as I said they were massive saves, but thats his role within the team.

I told you what happened, Clarke missed the ball completely, impeding Caff along the way, and Murphy punched over the bar. Poor goal-keeping.

Thar's what Moran said it meant to him, not anyone else. A crucial save though that probably stopped us from being hammered. No more than the list of unreal saves Hennelly made on Sunday.

MaroonAndGreen

yop wrote: »

Its strange that he hasn't been included, Alan Murphy clocked up some massive scores all season and Jimmy Kileen from Garrymore has been consistently in the top scorers and Mayo News team of the year for the last 3-5 years.
While a player can be top notch at club its that step to the next level where it breaks down.
Wasn't Ciaran McDonald averaging 7 points a game yet was left off the panel, though I know there was a LOT more to that drama.

Apparently James Horan isnt too keen on Shrule/Glencorrib, as the Mortimer family statement claimed after Conor left last year, but thats unlikely. Although when you see that Ronaldson and Dermot Geraghty were dropped early in the Horan reign and Conor feels he was forced out then maybe there is something to it, we'l never know :P

The thing with Killeen is, he is a top class free taker, and id guess that 70% of his scores come from frees. Do we need another free taker? Although at the same time ive often seen Garrymore games where Killeen has outshone Varley.