Fed up as cyclists as public enemy #1

ED E

I have a question, as a motorist one is expected to be able to stop and if you hit somebody you're pretty much always in the wrong. Is it the same for other road users? If you're bombing it down a cycle path and some braindead f'ck steps out into your path, you wont necessarily be able to do anything to avoid them. Who would be in the wrong, if you get knocked about are they liable?

-Chris-

When you're driving any vehicle, you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.
When you're walking/cycling/driving you're expected not to step/cycle/drive out in front of someone else unpredictably.

In the case that you're cycling and someone steps out in front of you, who's to blame will depend largely on which of you made the stupid mistake and didn't allow for the other person.

I don't know how that stands up in law, but I think it's pretty plain.

CramCycle

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

I have a question, as a motorist one is expected to be able to stop and if you hit somebody you're pretty much always in the wrong. Is it the same for other road users? If you're bombing it down a cycle path and some braindead f'ck steps out into your path, you wont necessarily be able to do anything to avoid them. Who would be in the wrong, if you get knocked about are they liable?

It really depends on the specifics of the situation. If they just step out though it implies you could see them on the edge of the path and should prepare to stop/pull out just in case. If they run and jump with the intention of hitting you then obviously they are liable.

Its to vague a situation to give an answer in my opinion but as Chris says, common sense wins out unless of course they get onto Joe for a full on public riot :pac::pac::pac:

Blowfish

tomasrojo wrote: »

In answer to my own question, it seems the Rathmines-Fairview route will open in September.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2011/0716/1224300627383.html

(ALONG THE GRAND CANAL: Cycling )



It'll be interesting anyway.

This thread is really derailed now, isn't it?

I use a bit of that for my commute. It's already suffering from people parking on it and a ridiculous amount of pedestrians wandering on it.

Stark

seamus wrote: »

That was me
But that's kind of my point. It works in Germany, because that's what the German people are like. It doesn't work in Ireland, because the Irish are less concerned about such trivial laws.

Although people in general aren't that different. I'd be interested to know if the number of collisions between peds and cyclists is noticeably higher in Germany than elsewhere.

Just back from a week in Hamburg. They have those on-footpath cycle lanes everywhere. They're good for cyclists in the sense that there are few driveways/obstacles and the cyclists get priority at junctions (and the lanes flow sensibly into each other). Bad for pedestrians in that you can't just stop randomly on the footpath and look around without having to be on the alert for cyclists coming through. Also, pedestrians do walk on the cycle lanes when it suits them. There was one point where the footpath portion went up a ramp and the cycle lane continued on flat and everyone opted for the cycle lane.

Overall the system worked well enough as the paths for the most part wide enough to accommodate both pedestrian and cyclist traffic comfortably. It's in no way a vindication of the Irish system with narrow footpath/cycle lanes and cyclists having to yield to driveways and obstacles every few metres with lanes disappearing and reappearing and no safe way of making a right turn without leaving the path and opting for the road well in advance.

Also, people cycling fast on racers did use the road as opposed to the cycle lanes.

ED E

I made the mistake of cycling up O'Connell st yesterday, I normally avoid it. The usual minefield of idiots who think just because you are on two wheels you should be ignored.

At both the second pedestrian crossing I had some chap with headphones in walk straight into my path when the rest stopped, completely oblivious. I dodged and waved in his face(the temptation would be to give him a clip on the ear) to get him to wake the f'ck up. With the light in my favour would I be in the clear if I'd hit him?

Stark

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

With the light in my favour would I be in the clear if I'd hit him?

I would say that if you were able to avoid him but chose not to, then you were clearly in the wrong, light or no light.

galwaycyclist

Stark wrote: »

Just back from a week in Hamburg.

Quick question do the traffic lights work like other German cities, eg they go green for everyone in a particular direction - cars, cyclists, pedestrians. And do turning motorists, who also have a green, then wait for cyclists and pedestrians on coming through on the inside?

JohnMarston

Cyclists (plural) have clipped me cycling full speed down the footpath instead of using the road.I called one out on not using the road and all he did was flip me off and keep cycling.
Cyclists have cut out in front of me in the city, swinging to one side of the road and back and slowing up a line of traffic, only to keep to their side once the guards have passed the opposite way.
I have almost caused accident from cyclists not having any high vis equipment on their bike or their person at night, rendering them almost invisible.

Other than that, a great bunch of lads

Stark

galwaycyclist wrote:

Quick question do the traffic lights work like other German cities, eg they go green for everyone in a particular direction - cars, cyclists, pedestrians. And do turning motorists, who also have a green, then wait for cyclists and pedestrians on coming through on the inside?

From what I could see, the traffic lights worked similar to here, ie:haphazard sequencing and many of the streets had the button you had to push to get a green light. They had the "turn right on red" rule for motorists but motorists turning right on green had priority over peds/cyclists who still had a red light.

JohnMarston wrote:

Cyclists (plural) have clipped me cycling full speed down the footpath instead of using the road.I called one out on not using the road and all he did was flip me off and keep cycling.

What street was it?

tomasrojo

Turn right on red, no?

Stark

Sorry, right on red. Translating back and forth between Irish and German systems in my head.

Jawgap

JohnMarston wrote: »

Cyclists (plural) have clipped me cycling full speed down the footpath instead of using the road.I called one out on not using the road and all he did was flip me off and keep cycling.
Cyclists have cut out in front of me in the city, swinging to one side of the road and back and slowing up a line of traffic, only to keep to their side once the guards have passed the opposite way.
I have almost caused accident from cyclists not having any high vis equipment on their bike or their person at night, rendering them almost invisible.

Other than that, a great bunch of lads

Thanks, on behalf of the bunch (including the female, junior and vets divisions) I'd like to commend you for taking the time to write in. Your post is important and will be passed to the head of our PR Department who will provide a more formal reply in due course.:rolleyes:

seamus

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

I have a question, as a motorist one is expected to be able to stop and if you hit somebody you're pretty much always in the wrong.

You see, strictly speaking that's not the case. The problem is that when a pedestrian rocks up into a courthouse in a wheelchair detailing how he's in constant pain, likely to require medication and physio for the rest of his life, has lost his job and suffers flashbacks, then it doesn't matter that he jumped off a bridge and landed in front of the car. All the judge sees is crippled man versus uninjured driver with insurance and he decides that the "right" thing to do is to have the injured party cared for, ignoring what this will do to the motorists premium and freedom of travel.

It's a common ruling that I don't agree with.

But -Chris- is also right - there is a higher burden of care placed on the motorist than on the pedestrian, primarily because they have far more potential to cause damage. 99% of the time in a collision between a motorist and a ped, it can be shown in one way or another, that there was a failing on the motorist's part to drive with adequate care and speed for the conditions.

Also as someone interestingly pointed out on another thread, motorists may only use roads under licence, pedestrians can use roads by right, so the right of way is implicitly shifted onto the pedestrian in all cases.

The same nuances don't apply for cyclists, because they can use the roads by right rather than by licence, and are generally not insured. So a collision between a pedestrian and a cyclist is typically treated as a standard injury under tort, where either party needs to prove negligence of the other in order to secure compensation.

jester77

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Quick question do the traffic lights work like other German cities, eg they go green for everyone in a particular direction - cars, cyclists, pedestrians. And do turning motorists, who also have a green, then wait for cyclists and pedestrians on coming through on the inside?

That's standard all over Germany. Motorists have to give way to the cycle lanes when turning on green.

ED E

Cheers Seamus.

Also, I was never suggesting I'd intentionally collide with a pedestrian Stark.

monument

tomasrojo wrote: »

In answer to my own question, it seems the Rathmines-Fairview route will open in September.

Delayed again.

smeedyova

In Germany the lights go green for all road users travelling in the same direction but not quite at the same time...the cyclists get a head start. Motorists turning right must wait for all cyclists/pedestrians to cross the road before completing their turn. However, if there is no cyclist/pedestrian the motorist may proceed through the green bicycle light.

galwaycyclist

smeedyova wrote: »

In Germany the lights go green for all road users travelling in the same direction but not quite at the same time...the cyclists get a head start. Motorists turning right must wait for all cyclists/pedestrians to cross the road before completing their turn. However, if there is no cyclist/pedestrian the motorist may proceed through the green bicycle light.

This is where suggestions for us to copy German roads infrastructure, however well meant, break down.

At German traffic lights, the pedestrians and cyclists get roughly equivalent amounts of time as the motorised traffic. Irish practice is to manage pedestrians for the benefit of motorised traffic. If you want to cross the road you might get 6-10 second in every signal-cycle if you are lucky. It is one of the reasons why Irish pedestrians are morally, although not legally, entitled to treat traffic signals with contempt.

Given the chance, it is a fair assumption that Irish traffic engineers would use bicycle traffic-signals to treat cyclists the same way. Implying the sytematic removal of capacity eg "time" from the cyclists at every set of lights.

Jawgap

German infrastructure would never work here. we're not German.

Seriously, look at the UK and their traffic light sequence......



Try that here and there'd be carnage - everyone would go on the red/amber rather than waiting for the green.

As a nation we're crap at observing laws (they're for the other fellah) and pretty rubbish road users.

tomasrojo

It's scandalous how little green time pedestrians get. Especially in Dublin, where the comprise the largest transport mode.

smeedyova

The main problems that I see in Ireland (being used to the German way) are:

1. The correct (by that I mean German) traffic laws are not in place,
2. Any laws that are in place are ignored by the vast majority of road users,
3. The Gardai do not generally enforce laws leading to an increase in above point,
4. Irish society is geared around motorists.

It's quite simple: you can't have a successful society unless there are (sensible and useful) rules and those rules are obeyed and enforced. That is why it is so chaotic here. I suggest you look at Grafton Street, just outside Trinity College. There you will see taxis parked along double yellow lines and often ON the pedestrian crossing. Pedestrians cross even when their light is red. The Gardai ignore all of these things. Result: chaos.