Over 35's Farming?

Western Pomise

Replied to a thread but got no answer.....am 35 years old...am a part time farmer with other full time job...did green cert in around 2003...have several siblings with no interest in land...I do most of work but any time I mentioned transfer to my dad he changed subject......lost interest in that whole area esp when govt got rid of installation aid....BASIC ?.....once you are 35 or older will you have to pay stamp duty whenever farm is transferred....appreciate any reply...thanks.....at this stage I have given up on the oul fella!

aidanki

sit him down and tell him, he probably doesn't understand, unless of course he does and still needs the money

Western Pomise

Know what your saying....can someone just put me out of my misery though...if you are 35 are you too old to reclaim stamp duty....we are talking a fair few acres so it would be handy if It was still worth me talking to the father as you say.

Injuryprone

Western Pomise wrote: »

Replied to a thread but got no answer.....am 35 years old...am a part time farmer with other full time job...did green cert in around 2003...have several siblings with no interest in land...I do most of work but any time I mentioned transfer to my dad he changed subject......lost interest in that whole area esp when govt got rid of installation aid....BASIC ?.....once you are 35 or older will you have to pay stamp duty whenever farm is transferred....appreciate any reply...thanks.....at this stage I have given up on the oul fella!

Short answer - yes. AFAIK you can get away without having the green cert done (and clawback the stamp duty), but the transfer has to be done before your 35th birthday.

TUBBY

sorry but answer is definitely yes. you have to actually be under 35 also before transfer so even if transfer went thru 3 days after 35th birthday, the green cert doesnt matter.

best of luck with it

reilig

But, if the transfer goes through before your 35th birthday, you can do the "Green Cert" up to 3 years after this and claim back the stamp duty. I know someone currently doing this!

irishh_bob

stamp duty rellief was scrapped for everyone in the past week , doesnt matter if your 19 , you have to pay it now

Tipp Man

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamp duty rellief was scrapped for everyone in the past week , doesnt matter if your 19 , you have to pay it now

Correct but slightly wrong as well

The current relief was not renewed - HOWEVER you can still claim the relief up until 31-12-2012.

After that date you will definately have to pay stamp

20silkcut

Tipp Man wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamp duty rellief was scrapped for everyone in the past week , doesnt matter if your 19 , you have to pay it now

Correct but slightly wrong as well

The current relief was not renewed - HOWEVER you can still claim the relief up until 31-12-2012.

After that date you will definately have to pay stamp

A lot of older farmers would not be willing to transfer their holding just cause their son turns 35. I know my own father only became the outright owner of his farm in 2002 after a joint tennancy arrangement with my grandmother. He is hardly going to turn around a few years later and sign it over to me.

Most farmers just will their farms to their sons do they not?

whelan1

i'd say most passed it on before the younger farmer was 35 - in this area anyway... theres always some that hold on to it forever... i am one of the lucky ones:)

F.D

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamp duty rellief was scrapped for everyone in the past week , doesnt matter if your 19 , you have to pay it now

I'm 30 and have paid the 2300 or what ever it was to do the green cert only a few months ago, in the hope of it paying off before i'm 35, looks like i should get a refund!!!!:mad:

irishh_bob

20silkcut wrote: »

A lot of older farmers would not be willing to transfer their holding just cause their son turns 35. I know my own father only became the outright owner of his farm in 2002 after a joint tennancy arrangement with my grandmother. He is hardly going to turn around a few years later and sign it over to me.

Most farmers just will their farms to their sons do they not?

well the previous generation of farmers are going to have to loosen up a bit , young farmers from this generation are not going to be traping around like tadghg from the film the field , following ther father like a calf following its mother for thirty years , one thing ive always disliked about farmers as a group is thier selfishness towards thier children , many of them saw thier kids as merley existing to work hard for them , with the only promise of inheriting the land at some non specefic date in the far future , this generation expects a wee bit more

aidanki

Tipp Man wrote: »

Correct but slightly wrong as well

The current relief was not renewed - HOWEVER you can still claim the relief up until 31-12-2012.

After that date you will definately have to pay stamp[/QUOTE

any links or further details on this?

Tipp Man

aidanki wrote: »

Tipp Man wrote: »

Correct but slightly wrong as well

The current relief was not renewed - HOWEVER you can still claim the relief up until 31-12-2012.

After that date you will definately have to pay stamp[/QUOTE

any links or further details on this?

I do indeed have a link (it opens a pdf document)

www.revenue.ie/en/tax/stamp-duty/leaflets/sd2b.pdf

niallf

The key point here is that you have to be under 35. If not im afraid you would have to pay stamp duty on the transfer. The only other alternative is for you to be left it in the will. There is no stamp duty on inheritance.

The current stamp duty exemption legislation is only applicable to lands transferred before or on 31.12.2012. After that its anybodys guess to what could happen.

If you are in your 30s and thinking of waiting until you are almost 35 to transfer, I would suggest you transfer before 31/12/2012 to avail of the current SD exemption legislation

JohnBoy

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamp duty rellief was scrapped for everyone in the past week , doesnt matter if your 19 , you have to pay it now

Tipp Man wrote: »

Correct but slightly wrong as well

The current relief was not renewed - HOWEVER you can still claim the relief up until 31-12-2012.

After that date you will definately have to pay stamp

I saw the link to the sd2b document, but has there been some announcement recently? what has actually changed in the past week?

Western Pomise

Thanks for the answers...not wishing the father any ill health as we work very well together on farm but its good to know there isnt stamp duty if its passed on by will......just as matter of interest what roughly is % charged on land transferred over to someone over 35....say on 100 acres valued at 4000 an acre which would be around going rate around here taking acc of land quality,recession factors etc.

warfie35

Its worth having a chat with your solicitor,may back date transfer date few days before you turned 35, are you member of teagasc, try everything ifa etc,best of luck

Tipp Man

JohnBoy wrote: »

I saw the link to the sd2b document, but has there been some announcement recently? what has actually changed in the past week?

The sd2b document is correct

however as the document stated the expiry of the relief is 31 Dec 2012.

The announcement recently merely stated that this date would not be extended so after that date the relief is gone

Tipp Man

warfie35 wrote: »

Its worth having a chat with your solicitor,may back date transfer date few days before you turned 35, are you member of teagasc, try everything ifa etc,best of luck

Nearly impossible to back date it - the stamp has to be done before your 35th birthday

pakalasa

There are other options if you are over 35 yrs.
Have a read of these.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70310840

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/leaflets/cat2.html

Belongamick

I'm in a similar boat to western promise but also looking at this from a different angle. Recently had a relation whao became ill and the cost of care in a nursing home can be extremely expensive. Under the 'fair deal' scheme if you have the 'means' (cash in bank, property etc) you pay for this yourself - very little left to transfer! If you have little means (farm transferred well in advance) then the 'means' at your disposal is reduced and your care bill is not as great. This is my rough understanding of the system in the unfortunate event that a parent requires full time care. Well worth looking into this and the rules around it....

okiss

I would speak to a solicitor and find out how much tax you would have to pay if your father was to put the farm in your name.
I would sit down with your parents and explain that if the farm was to be put in your name now it would cost x amount and the tax is y amount.
But that with the next budget this will change and it would end up costing more then.
You may find that if the farm was in your name that your parents could be entitled to extra money or state benefits which they can't get at the moment due to the value of the farm.
I would speck to your mother in private and get her onside before chatting to your father - she could be saying to him to slow down ect.
I would not wait until they both die as a badly worded will or your family members arguing about the will could leave you worse off long term.
At the moment you are working hard on the farm and you need to be in a better position than you are at the moment.

JohnBoy

Tipp Man wrote: »

The announcement recently merely stated that this date would not be extended so after that date the relief is gone

do you have the details of the announcement? who made it?

Western Pomise

Thanks for the advice.....looks like I will have to farm on with the oul fella:)

6600

The stamp duty might not be as big as you think.

100ac*€4,000 = €400,000

Stamp Duty €400,000*3% = €12,000

The rate is 3% because the rate is halved for transfers between relations.

-The normal rate is 6% see below, the half rate for relations still applies for non-residential property. see below:
-The rate for any house included in the transfer is 1% of value, the half-rate does not apply.
-Any stock or machinery transferred is not liable.
-Values have to be realistic, keep reports from sales of local land sales or get auctioneer to value it.
-If your father is over 55 and has owned and farmed the land for at least 10 yrs then should he should have CGT liability.
-You should be ok for gift tax exemption also - value of property reduced by 90% which would bring it well under the exemption of €332k. Don't have to have Green Cert or be under 35 for this. This is something which is likely to change in the next few years. If you didn't qualify the rate is 25%.

From Revenue website: Rates on non-res prop
Up to €10,000 Exempt
€10,001 to €20,000 1%
€20,001 to €30,000 2%
€30,001 to €40,000 3%
€40,001 to €70,000 4%
€70,001 to €80,000 5%
Over €80,000 6%

Half rate between relations
Consanguinity relief
This relief applies to transfers of non-residential property to certain relatives, e.g. parent, grandparent, step-parent, child, foster-child, adopted child, brother, sister, half-brother/sister, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew. Duty is charged at half the normal rate. This relief does not apply to leases or transfers of shares. Finance Act 2011 confirmed that consanguinity relief would no longer apply to transfers of residential property with effect from 8 December 2010.

johnstown

And CAT tax (inheritance tax) is fairly likely to be overhauled in the next budget. This could have an adverse effect also... so get moving. I would deffo get someone to talk to the da and get things moving. See will he talk to a good solicitor.