Trade issues. Trial.

county5

Thanks for your reply and friendly advice, if it was nothing else I just want a little more knowledge

Hoagy

Some news on the wage agreement here.

Hoagy

And the AECI response here.

Doodoo

Just wondering if there are many going in to the meeting tonight.

18th April 2012 - General Meetings for Electricians/Apprentices in the Electrical Contracting Industry 18th April 2012 - General Meetings for Electricians/Apprentices in the Electrical Contracting Industry for the purpose of discussing the future of the NJIC and the Registered Employment Agreement will be held on Wednesday 25th April 2012 at 8.00 p.m. in the following locations around the Country: Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick & Galway. 

bucky08

Work with contractor we certify our fire alarm systems all the time use menvier systems very good tech support and very easy to use system

2011

EPACE has no statuary right to inspect records according to Minister Burton.

.G.

And the end for the REA is nigh.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0509/391278-court-finds-employment-agreements-unconstitutional/

I was basically forced out of the trade by the REA,
Haven't sparked in 2 years,(luckily enough i have some other skills and moved into a different area)
My father on the other hand lost the family business after 20 years because of high rates and pensions and being dragged through the labor courts for not complying with the REA.

On the last site I worked on a TEEU man called to talk to the sparks not knowing it was my fathers business.
We told him we were happy with what we were getting paid and to leave and he told me the TEEU were "out to get him,and they would get him"
I told him to get the **** out

This can only be good for the industry,

HoggyRS

superg wrote: »

And the end for the REA is nigh.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0509/391278-court-finds-employment-agreements-unconstitutional/

"Now that these REAs have been declared unconstitutional, Mr Butler said that its contractors intend to grow their business, and employ people in what he called "a realistic way"."

doesnt sound like good news.

2011

I am sure that the previously agreed rates will be paid to "industrial electricians" that are working on large projects. In general high profile clients would rather insist on the rates being payed than have the embarrassment of a picket on the gate. As before the REA rates will only apply to those PAYE workers that are directly employed by electrical contractors. For those that are self employed and have negotiated their own (often reduced) rates nothing is likely to change as they were not governed by the REA anyway.

IMHO this will impact disproportionally on "domestic electricians". This may mean that some electricians may be taken off the dole queues employed at a reduced rate. On a positive note if more electricians are employed this may make it possible for apprentices to employed. This will be great news for those unfortunate apprentices that have been let go during their apprenticeship. Now they may be able to complete their apprenticeship and perhaps seek well paid employment abroad.

Only time will tell.

On another note I see that the TEEU has started a "Defend our national agreements campaign".

.G.

I'm not sure the TEEU advice on this issue is meaningful. They say that your wage cannot be lowered if you have an existing contract which is correct if your wage is written into your contract,but in my experience electricians contracts usually say something ambiguous like "you will be paid the rates in line with the REA for the electrical contracting sector" .

Contracts rarely give a figure on pay for sparky's so if the REA is dead then employers can indeed reduce pay without an employee's consent.I would imagine most employed sparks would happily work with their employer on this rather than lose their job,although those in the bigger,more union oriented companies would probably have a different approach,possibly even forced upon them.

With regard to apprentices,it means 1st year apprentices will actually get a wage increase as they would have to be paid the legal minimum wage which was above the agreed rates for 1st years anyway.

2011

superg wrote: »

With regard to apprentices,it means 1st year apprentices will actually get a wage increase as they would have to be paid the legal minimum wage which was above the agreed rates for 1st years anyway.

I do not believe that this is correct.

My understanding is that the minimum wage does not apply to apprentices as they are part of a training scheme.

HoggyRS

superg wrote: »

I'm not sure the TEEU advice on this issue is meaningful. They say that your wage cannot be lowered if you have an existing contract which is correct if your wage is written into your contract,but in my experience electricians contracts usually say something ambiguous like "you will be paid the rates in line with the REA for the electrical contracting sector" .

Contracts rarely give a figure on pay for sparky's so if the REA is dead then employers can indeed reduce pay without an employee's consent.I would imagine most employed sparks would happily work with their employer on this rather than lose their job,although those in the bigger,more union oriented companies would probably have a different approach,possibly even forced upon them.

With regard to apprentices,it means 1st year apprentices will actually get a wage increase as they would have to be paid the legal minimum wage which was above the agreed rates for 1st years anyway.

What about other years of the apprenticeship? im phase 2 E&I (but i work with an electrical contractor) at the moment and some of us are freaking out a bit! People saying the apprentice wages are gonna go down.

2011

HoggyRS wrote: »

People saying the apprentice wages are gonna go down.

I think that this will vary from company to company.

At the moment apprentice hourly rates are a percentage of electricians hourly rates. It would seem that the hourly rate for some electricians may change. I think that you will just have to wait and see.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

I do not believe that this is correct.

My understanding is that the minimum wage does not apply to apprentices as they are part of a training scheme.

Possibly but that training scheme previously had agreed wage rates enforceable by law.All construction REA's pay rates are now null and void so one would assume that would include training program wage rates agreed under those REA's.

Unless a new system is agreed sharpish,its likely apprentice's will be in the same boat as everyone else,they will negotiate their own wage with their employer.

We aren't going to be seeing qualified lads get €21 an hour anymore so its unlikely a 4th year will be getting €16 either.There wouldnt be much justification to reduce 1st and 2nd year rates IMO but after that there will be pressure.

One things for sure,there's a lot of questions that need answering asap.

2011

superg wrote: »

We aren't going to be seeing qualified lads get €21 anymore

I don't agree. As per my post above, I think some will.
I had a meeting a few days ago with a project manager from a large electrical contractor. He told me that they would have to pay the current REA agreed rates on many projects as this was something that the clients were insisting on.

Regarding apprentices getting paid minimum wage lets agree to disagree and time will tell.

HoggyRS

We apprentices certainly wont be jumping to 21 euro an hour when we come out of our time anyways. A bit of a kick in the balls now to go down this road for 4 years and be getting a few euro under 21 an hour, hopefully it wont pan out like that.

2011

HoggyRS wrote: »

We apprentices certainly wont be jumping to 21 euro an hour when we come out of our time anyways. A bit of a kick in the balls now to go down this road for 4 years and be getting a few euro under 21 an hour, hopefully it wont pan out like that.

Would you consider working abroad?

HoggyRS

2011 wrote: »

Would you consider working abroad?

Yeah I hope to travel with my trade when I qualify so hopefully this REA stuff wont effect me! Long way off yet, over 3 years!

2011

HoggyRS wrote: »

Yeah I hope to travel with my trade when I qualify

I don't think you will have a problem earning descent money so.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

I don't agree. As per my post above, I think some will.
I had a meeting a few days ago with a project manager from a large electrical contractor. He told me that they would have to pay the current REA agreed rates on many projects as this was something that the clients were insisting on.

Regarding apprentices getting paid minimum wage lets agree to disagree and time will tell.

Yeah well only the lucky ones are working for large contractors (ECA members).

The vast majortiy of sparks out there will be working for AECI and NECI members who started all this.You can bet your life they won't be paying €21 if they don't have to

2011

superg wrote: »

Yeah well only the lucky ones are working for large contractors (ECA members).

Yes, I agree that many electricians are not "industrial electricians" working for large electrical contractors.

There are many self employed electricians that work for electrical contractors that the REA never applied to. They are not entitled to holiday pay, pension, travel and can be let go with no notice. Their pay rates are whatever the negotiate which historically has been far less than the REA rates (from what I have seen). This despite the fact that they are time served electricians working for the same companies along side electricians that are on PAYE. Funny the way that they get little or no mention. In my opinion almost all electricians would have been employed in this way in the future if the REAs were not "defeated". It effectively allows electrical contractors to hire and fire on negotiated (lower) rates with ease.

You can bet your life they won't be paying €21 if they don't have to

Naturally (if they don't have to). Every business will pay as little as they can for everything from wages to materials to insurance.

As stated above I feel that this impact disproportionally on "domestic electricians".

However according to Richard Bruton in this this UCC article:

The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Richard Bruton released a statement yesterday stating that the Government had just received the judgment and intended to study it and take legal advice before commenting in detail. The statement also clarified that existing contractual rights of workers in sectors covered by REA are unaffected by the ruling.

trev9604

Right lads,

I just spotted this thread as I have just registered on this website. Firstly, I am out on my own doing routine maintenance and commissioning of various different Fire Alarm systems. The rate of pay when I worked with a big company as a maintenance technician was very good. Ranges between 15 and 20 per hour. The pay is very very good. Most guys I know who are in the same game as myself are from an electricians backround and are very clever as Fire Alarm systems can be very complicated, not just your bog standard c-tec 4 zone conventional system.

The money is very good, rates start from 150 labour + 150 parts per day. thats 300 per day which equates to 37.50 per hour which is just above average. Most lads are charging 30 p/h.

So to be honest, a fire alarm technician, not engineer which I would never call myself because you need to go to college to be one, would be on either the same as or more than the hourly rate of a spark. Hope this sheds a bit of light on the subject.

meercat

trev9604 wrote: »

Right lads,

I just spotted this thread as I have just registered on this website. Firstly, I am out on my own doing routine maintenance and commissioning of various different Fire Alarm systems. The rate of pay when I worked with a big company as a maintenance technician was very good. Ranges between 15 and 20 per hour. The pay is very very good. Most guys I know who are in the same game as myself are from an electricians backround and are very clever as Fire Alarm systems can be very complicated, not just your bog standard c-tec 4 zone conventional system.

The money is very good, rates start from 150 labour + 150 parts per day. thats 300 per day which equates to 37.50 per hour which is just above average. Most lads are charging 30 p/h.

So to be honest, a fire alarm technician, not engineer which I would never call myself because you need to go to college to be one, would be on either the same as or more than the hourly rate of a spark. Hope this sheds a bit of light on the subject.

welcome to boards;)

trev9604

meercat wrote: »

welcome to boards;)

Cheers

mikehammer67

i knew a guy supplying the fire certs

it was a licence to print money

he had young lads doing the testing and certification on EL and FIRE that hadn't a clue what they were doin

sign off and take the money

trev9604

Yeah there are a lot of guys out there doing that. Only thing is that it's your public liability that is claimed against if anything goes wrong.

I've signed off and certified jobs for a few crowds but I went through every inch of the system before hand. It's madness to sign your name to a life safety system and not be sure wether it's up to standard or not.

2011

Yes, some fire alarm companies are making good money and charge high rates. To comply with insurance requirements companies must have their fire alarm systems serviced and maintained and that can be expensive.

However the OP's question was about the rate of pay for the employees that commission and maintain fire alarm systems, not how successful the companies that they work for are.

trev9604

Your right,

So to get back to the point, as an employee you can earn from €15 upwards working for a decent company.

Subcontracting your looking at from €25 and upward.

Self employed and your starting at €30 as far as €55 per hour from what I've seen myself.

2011

It is important to note that as formal training is not requirement for this type of role rates of pay are frequently lower than than those for qualified electricians.