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Reds under the Bed in Ireland?
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »john joe mcgirl ??? Communist or republican?
Maybe ye are thinking about Jim Gralton? The "allegedly" communist hall he had in Co Leitrim was a short hop from where my Dad is from. Gralton was the only Irish man to be deported from.....Ireland. Great little country eh ! !
John-Joe McGirl wwas a Ballinamore man.0 -
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Hey, I just said that Connolly was not a reliable historical source because he was a politician and selling something .
That would have been the same Liam Cosgrave who I believe once refused to start a cabinet meeting because he had not recieved that days edition of the Racing Post.
I never know what to make of Norris , and, I admire him for his work on updating the laws on homosexuality. I don't agree with him on Joyce and think Andy McNab the better writer, having read both.
Was Paddy Donegan a fascist ?
Fair enough, but my objection to Humphreys is that the extremity and bitterness of his views makes him unreliable.
Paddy Donegan admitted openly to being a fascist. Not sure how that was reflected in his ministerial role, if at all (aside from the aforementioned incident with the schoolchildren, which occured under his watch).0 -
premierlass wrote: »Fair enough, but my objection to Humphreys is that the extremity and bitterness of his views makes him unreliable.
I have never come across Humphreys before but really is he just linking up to factual information .No matter how distasteful it is, is it accurate ? .Paddy Donegan admitted openly to being a fascist. Not sure how that was reflected in his ministerial role, if at all (aside from the aforementioned incident with the schoolchildren, which occured under his watch).
He died in 2000 and appeared to be fondly remembered by his colleagues.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2000/11/29/00004.asp
Was he a fascist - I dunno - but Oliver J Flannagan -a party colleague -was an anti-semite0 -
IMO socialism saw/sees itself in competition with the church as a welfare provider and peddles its own belief system.
Was it not the other way around? As the powerful authority the church saw socialism as a threat and tried to snuff it out. It did this successfully in the period mentioned by the OP.
Regarding Jack Murphy the influence of McQuaid is not as exagerated as you thinkI am very amused at some of the stuff I read and doubt McQuaid would have had that type of power over ordinary people. It sounds like an makey upey excuse for not getting elected.Following the hunger strike Murphy had a meeting with the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Charles McQuaid. McQuaid warned Murphy about the dangers of associating with communists and urged him to break with the UPC. He warned Murphy that Sam Nolan was the most dangerous man in the country and to break his ties with him. http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/07/09/the-election-of-jack-murphy-in-1957/The UPC decided, as part of the campaign against the removal of food subsidies, to seek a meeting with Dr. McQuaid, the Archbishop of Dublin. Instead, the Archbishop sent for Jack Murphy and a discussion took place. Jack Murphy later informed the committee that the Archbishop had made three main points. Firstly, that, as Archbishop, he could not interfere in political decisions made by the Government. Secondly, that he had authorised work of church property to help create employment. Thirdly, he warned Jack Murphy of the danger of associating with Communists, who were trying to use him.
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The next move was that Jack Murphy, for whom the Dublin unemployed and workers generally had campaigned to have elected, announced his resignation as a member of Dáil Éireann. He consulted none of the persons who had worked so hard to secure his election. He resigned from the Dáil in 1958 and in the by-election Fianna Fáil gained the seat.” (Communist Party of Ireland: Outline History, pp.59-60.) http://irishlabour.com/?p=297
If it is part of a political ideology that they should have been -then nobody told them (my grandparents). People were very aware of the treatment of the Kulaks by the communists. The Irish farmers were just were not buying it.
Its like saying the church closed down Stringfellows Dublin in 2006. Did Frank Duff and the church close Monto or maybe it was a bit more complex than that.
Perhaps this is why (farming) any communist leanings in Ireland have had very small following and support. I dont get your stringfellows comparison?
I would listen to this line of thought but wouldnt really agree at this point. I think it is entirely possible to look at the irish reaction to communism in a historical context. The 'red trials' in the USA were an amazing afront to freedom of expression IMO, particularly in the country that puts itself forward as the leader of the free world. Irelands reaction to this was limited due to the lack of a widespread communist movement but it does seem to have existed in some way in the evidence in parts of this thread.It seems odd that this discussion is on the history forum and not in humanities.
Maybe there needs to be a subforum for threads like this because it hardly really fits here.0 -
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »Was it not the other way around? As the powerful authority the church saw socialism as a threat and tried to snuff it out. It did this successfully in the period mentioned by the OP.
i do not agree with you and do not think there was an effort by the church to snuff out the likes of the labour party, the trade union movement or even sinn fein etc
it simply did not happen and my mother was active in the INTO
did it happen in dan springs kerry constituency or in the corishes wexford constituency - no it did not
if you were to take dr noel browne and the mother and child scheme and clann na poblachta there were plenty of reasons for problems with it and the common denominator was noel brownes arrogance and complete lack of tact which brought down the government
he would have started a fight in a hairdressers and was a bit oddRegarding Jack Murphy the influence of McQuaid is not as exagerated as you think
maybe my family was different though i think not
i would say the church had some influence and was more a part of peoples lives but lots of the decisions were their own.
that influence did not extend to 1916 and the war of independence so how did it arrive after the british departure. it didnt -it was one of the criteria used to assess political policies by voters.
as for there being an all out attack on Jack Murphy - that is total news to mePerhaps this is why (farming) any communist leanings in Ireland have had very small following and support. I dont get your stringfellows comparison?
really - if you are pulling in connections why not that as it was close to where monto was.. I think it is entirely possible to look at the irish reaction to communism in a historical context. The 'red trials' in the USA were an amazing afront to freedom of expression IMO, particularly in the country that puts itself forward as the leader of the free world. Irelands reaction to this was limited due to the lack of a widespread communist movement but it does seem to have existed in some way in the evidence in parts of this thread.
ireland was not the usa and US politics had little influence hereI would listen to this line of thought but wouldnt really agree at this point
i think a few of the regular posters are in to traditional history and do not like the political style threads
i am making an exception here but it is not my bag either -these types of threads have a limited historical value too0 -
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Not having a go at you but I wouldn't rely on that link of the Lisburn Historical Society. It's basically a cover for the unionist anti nationalist version of Irish history. I know from bad experience over on the history section of Politics.ie, you may as well quote the BNP on the history of rascism.That would be the Liam Cosgrave whose Defence Minister was Paddy Donegan, the fascist? I remember it came out that Special Branch created a file on some schoolchildren who wrote a letter to the papers protesting against an action of General Franco's.
http://lisburn.com/books/historical_...olume10-9.html
That would have been the same Liam Cosgrave who I believe once refused to start a cabinet meeting because he had not recieved that days edition of the Racing Post.
I never know what to make of Norris , and, I admire him for his work on updating the laws on homosexuality. I don't agree with him on Joyce and think Andy McNab the better writer, having read both.
Was Paddy Donegan a fascist ?0 -
i do not agree with you and do not think there was an effort by the church to snuff out the likes of the labour party, the trade union movement or even sinn fein etc
it simply did not happen and my mother was active in the INTO
did it happen in dan springs kerry constituency or in the corishes wexford constituency - no it did not
The church had total control in kerry and Wexford already so did not need to exercise its influence in relation to labour movements in these and other rural areas. I think this is accepted and if not a look at the last election results in rural vs. urban areas shows that it is still the case. I mentioned the Jack Murphy case- do you think that the church had no influence in his case. He was seen as having socialist tendancies and was pulled back into line by Charles McQuaid as far as I can read. Perhaps this was only coincidence.
I take the point but I don't want to stop threads just because of their 'style' unless they are really turning people off the H&H forum. My view would be that this thread for example is dealing with an interesting part of history that is relevent to the forum. If there was a large group of regular posters on the forum who dislike this type of history then I would be open to suggestions of a sub-forum. At the moment though, there does'nt seem to be the numbers for that to be required.i think a few of the regular posters are in to traditional history and do not like the political style threads
i am making an exception here but it is not my bag either -these types of threads have a limited historical value too
I think a comparison of stringfellows in 2006 with anti-communism in 1950's is stretching it a bit but you can expand on it and I will listen. I agree Ireland was not USA but US politics had influence everywhere in the western world and beyond, particularly where communism was even hinted at.really - if you are pulling in connections why not that as it was close to where monto was.
ireland was not the usa and US politics had little influence here0 -
jonniebgood1 wrote: »The church had total control in kerry and Wexford already so did not need to exercise its influence in relation to labour movements in these and other rural areas. I think this is accepted and if not a look at the last election results in rural vs. urban areas shows that it is still the case. I mentioned the Jack Murphy case- do you think that the church had no influence in his case. He was seen as having socialist tendancies and was pulled back into line by Charles McQuaid as far as I can read. Perhaps this was only coincidence.
My Dad is from Wexford and my mother from West Cork. Both areas have stong republican & reveloutionary traditions. Any interfering priest would have had to be brave.
What I am suggesting is that the church influence in lots of areas is exaggerated. You had incidents .
The key area where you had church domination was in education and in the case of socialism the provision of a public good by the private sector but in the case of communism & socialism the provision of any services by the church is anti-ethical. Religion is the opium of the people and all that according to the Marxist beliefs..
A person might believe wish to believe McQuaid influenced the Jack Murphy situation but the more obvious conclusion is that he was beaten by his own political decisions.McQuaid could not change the Fianna Fail Budget. Murphy, an honest guy, became disillusioned and resigned.
It is probably closer to the truth to say that Murphy resigned because he could not achieve the change he wanted and was uneasy at being anyones mouthpiece.
You do know that in private that it is very likely that McQuaid spelled out to Murphy that co-operation between them given his Communist Party support would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Isn't it interesting that he choose to resign over joining any other political party including the Labour Party.I think a comparison of stringfellows in 2006 with anti-communism in 1950's is stretching it a bit but you can expand on it and I will listen. I agree Ireland was not USA but US politics had influence everywhere in the western world and beyond, particularly where communism was even hinted at.
No actually - I thought you might want to use it as an example of the power of the church 80 or so years after Monto.
And no, what influence did US politics have on Ireland ?? If anything Ireland was isolated from independence and with the exception of the Marshall Plan in 1948 and entry into the EU I can't see it having any significance.
The UK has had a profound influence on us.
From 73 , the EU has driven much of our economic and social policies .I take the point but I don't want to stop threads just because of their 'style' unless they are really turning people off the H&H forum. My view would be that this thread for example is dealing with an interesting part of history that is relevent to the forum. If there was a large group of regular posters on the forum who dislike this type of history then I would be open to suggestions of a sub-forum. At the moment though, there does'nt seem to be the numbers for that to be required.
It is my understanding there is. Why not spin a thread of
Hell, when I first tried out the lore threads and speciality topics like executions there was a bit of resistance.
My problem with them is that they get into politics and that gets in the way of the history.0 -
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I have never come across Humphreys before but really is he just linking up to factual information .No matter how distasteful it is, is it accurate ? .
He died in 2000 and appeared to be fondly remembered by his colleagues.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2000/11/29/00004.asp
Was he a fascist - I dunno - but Oliver J Flannagan -a party colleague -was an anti-semite
As regards Che Guevara - he might well be. The propaganda war re Cuba is pretty vicious (the deification of Guevara was an amazing propaganda move, but opposition to the regime outside of Cuba isn't exactly lacking, and to be fair the left itself is sharply divided on the matter), and I'd like to have a look at the sources. However, I wouldn't trust him on the Irish supporters of the regime. It seems to be coloured by his dislike of their general political philosophy in some cases.
I was being a little facetious about Paddy Donegan, which is why I removed that part from my post. I think his role in Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh's resignation was worse as far as threats to democracy go, and even in that he behaved better than Liam Cosgrave did in the end.
Oliver J Flanagan was pretty despicable.0 -
premierlass wrote: »Oliver J Flanagan was pretty despicable.
Was he the same fellow that campaigned on a motorcycle with the slogan "Here comes Flanagan" on his front and the slogan "There goes Flanagan" on his back?0
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