higher yielding cows?

mattthetrasher

my question is are higher yielding cows the answer to my predicament.my predicament is i want to expand my income!:Di have tried leasing land but to be honest that market has lost touch with reality imo. if i increase no.s i would need labour and new buildings so we were thinking if we increase yield over the next few years from the current yield of 6000ltrs to maybe 8000 ltrs would it be the wrong thing to do?i wouldnt mind feeding them well as long as i dont have to use a diet feeder.do these high yilders work in a spring based system although idont mind milking 365 ihave a fairly new comfortable set-up.to be honest it is the only way forward i can figure in my circumstances anyway and everyones different.really i would love to hear replies for or against but especially if you are doing it now.:) thank you

bob charles

You arent pushing too much at 6000ltrs per cow. Maybe a trip abroad to see herds producing 10000itrs + would open your eyes:D. These are the ferraris of cows so need high octane food. So the diet would have to be tip top to produce such a yield. You dont necessary need a diet feeder for TMR but they are mighty handy especiallly if you are going to try and shove than many MJ into a cow to maintain such a yield and body condition. Why are you so against a diet feeder

mattthetrasher

quota is all thats holding us at 6000 ltrs really and on the diet feeder issue i have one 90 hp tractor i would have to invest in a feeder and a second tractor for the moment i could do without but down the road if it was a paying proposition i woulnt rule it out

mattthetrasher

bob charles wrote: »

You arent pushing too much at 6000ltrs per cow. Maybe a trip abroad to see herds producing 10000itrs + would open your eyes:D. These are the ferraris of cows so need high octane food. So the diet would have to be tip top to produce such a yield. You dont necessary need a diet feeder for TMR but they are mighty handy especiallly if you are going to try and shove than many MJ into a cow to maintain such a yield and body condition. Why are you so against a diet feeder

on the feeding part thats why we were picking 8000ltrs we wouldnt be what you would call up to speed on tmr and mj twill take time anyway to breed our cows there but we are getting there upgraded herd 4 years ago and have been using high milk bulls on ai now for three years but on nutrition now ya we maybe as cows get more milky a bit out of our depth any info much appreciated

bob charles

If your not up to speed with nutrition then proceed with extreme caution. Best to employ a independent professional or else things could be a disaster. the one thing about higher yielding cows eating say more concentrate is that you are more exposed to market changes for your inputs

BTW self education on animal nutrition is very interesting

Tipp Man

Profit is the key not how many litres they produce

don't forget the era of cheap grain is probably close to an end

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Profit is the key not how many litres they produce

don't forget the era of cheap grain is probably close to an end

then if you make a profit the bloody tax man is after ya , its a vicious circle:rolleyes:

jeff greene

Hi Matt, I understand your predicament. Firstly, a diet feeder isn't totally necessary but will help especially with other forages or stuff like brewers etc down the line.

Don't assume your cows aren't capable of 8000 litres, more attention to dry cows diets, better silage, better meal, better grass through reseeding, buffer feeding and with the help of a nutritionist and you'll be surprized what they can do.

Despite the bad press there is merit to pushing yields when land is limited and the home farm is maxed in terms of buildings and labour, the big question is will it stack up financial for you to chase those extra liters. Good cows will reward you I feel when fed.

I get what Bob is saying with going abroad to see what they can do, but start at home, plenty doing good yields with spring calving and grass. Companies like Keenan, Agriking would help you. Maybe others can give you more independent nutritionist

mattthetrasher

hi tippman i dont intend on doing it for free so i agree in sofar as it has to be done on a profit alone basis its like this a wife three kids one income it better be a good one

mattthetrasher

hi jeff, to me it makes sense to push yields in theory so far anyhow, its ok for teagasc or ifj to say milk 200 cows ,thats not a runner for us. we do profit monitor and grass budgeting running a tight ship best we can.what we can see is after quotas go we are still stuck land is our obstacle, our way around it hopefully get to grips with a bigger engine and drive profit least thats the plan anyhow. thanks

linebacker52

What's your stocking rate can it be increased

mattthetrasher

linebacker52 wrote: »

What's your stocking rate can it be increased

its 2.4l.u/ha over the farm linebacker ya it could go futher but on a wet year it might not be pleasant:eek:

mattthetrasher

is feed to yield indvidually better than tmr over all cows would it not be less wasteful?

jeff greene

If reasonably compact calving tmr will be fine, I like the idea of feeding to yield tho if calving has no start or finish, maybe out of parlour feeders .But I have a feeder and decent calving pattern so its fine. Really I see no issue with 8000litres and the standard spring calving grass based system

Tipp Man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

hi tippman i dont intend on doing it for free so i agree in sofar as it has to be done on a profit alone basis its like this a wife three kids one income it better be a good one

Sorry my post was more aimed at Bob as i felt he was saying that the foreign dairies were better as they were getting 10,000 litres a cow

Was merely pointing out that it is better to produce 6k at a profit than 10k at a loss

bob charles

Tipp Man wrote: »

Sorry my post was more aimed at Bob as i felt he was saying that the foreign dairies were better as they were getting 10,000 litres a cow

Was merely pointing out that it is better to produce 6k at a profit than 10k at a loss

thats news to me that all dairies with cows producing 6k l a year are making a profit whereas all units with cows at 10k l are making a loss. maybe you mightnt be able to make it work but some sure can and very successfully.

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

thats news to me that all dairies with cows producing 6k l a year are making a profit whereas all units with cows at 10k l are making a loss. maybe you mightnt be able to make it work but some sure can and very successfully.

I never said that everybody doing 6k is making a profit and everybody doing 10k isn't. Clearly there not and there are people doing 10k and making good money at it

Milking 10k however is not cheap - i was merely pointing that out and that with grain set long term to be expensive it is likely that the costs of producing 10k of milk will be even higher.

bob charles

Tipp Man wrote: »

I never said that everybody doing 6k is making a profit and everybody doing 10k isn't. Clearly there not and there are people doing 10k and making good money at it

Milking 10k however is not cheap - i was merely pointing that out and that with grain set long term to be expensive it is likely that the costs of producing 10k of milk will be even higher.

You want to bet grain is going to be expensive in the long term and milk is going to be cheap as you say above.

The way your previous posts implied that anyone milking 10k l cows wasnt making money. I dont know this is right or wrong as im not milking 10k l cows but allot of the producers outside the republic seem to be able to produce milk much cheaper.

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

You want to bet grain is going to be expensive in the long term and milk is going to be cheap as you say above.

The way your previous posts implied that anyone milking 10k l cows wasnt making money. I dont know this is right or wrong as im not milking 10k l cows but allot of the producers outside the republic seem to be able to produce milk much cheaper.

Which countries would these be?

NZ is the cheapest country in the world to produce milk and they do it on a low cost, low input, grass based, low yielding system

The UK which generally has a high cost system is seeing dairying farmers exit at a large rate

Genereally the high cost producing countries are paying more for their milk to keep them going.

I'm most definately not saying a high cost system won't work - there are clearly some who will make it work. I am just saying that there are plenty of fellas milking 6k cows who are making plenty of profit and at the end of the day profit is the key not volume of milk.

mattthetrasher

spoke to a discussion group colleague today he was on high yield but gave up on it as a bad job still has diet feeder and all but reckons now a 5000ltr crossbred cow with 9% solid or 450 kgs of ms and very little meal was the dogs creditionals not at all confused now

dar31

mattthetrasher wrote: »

spoke to a discussion group colleague today he was on high yield but gave up on it as a bad job still has diet feeder and all but reckons now a 5000ltr crossbred cow with 9% solid or 450 kgs of ms and very little meal was the dogs creditionals not at all confused now

just curious with all the going ons with liquid milk contracts at the moment, if you were to go down the high output/yeild route, would you produce through the winter on base price with the manuf. late lact/ early calving bonus for the two months, or what plans you had to cover cost through the winter.

mattthetrasher

dar31 wrote: »

just curious with all the going ons with liquid milk contracts at the moment, if you were to go down the high output/yeild route, would you produce through the winter on base price with the manuf. late lact/ early calving bonus for the two months, or what plans you had to cover cost through the winter.

the plan sketchy and all asit is would be to try and maintain a spring calving system but to be honest the more italk to guys i know i reckon once ya go over 1500 gls your on a 12 month system and maybe thats not on at base price i visited a farm today really profit based going down the jersey route his margin over feed compared well with any system although i am not a fan of jersey

mattthetrasher

feck it whelan id say your right your damned if you do and your f****d if you dont

funny man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

my question is are higher yielding cows the answer to my predicament.my predicament is i want to expand my income!:Di have tried leasing land but to be honest that market has lost touch with reality imo. if i increase no.s i would need labour and new buildings so we were thinking if we increase yield over the next few years from the current yield of 6000ltrs to maybe 8000 ltrs would it be the wrong thing to do?i wouldnt mind feeding them well as long as i dont have to use a diet feeder.do these high yilders work in a spring based system although idont mind milking 365 ihave a fairly new comfortable set-up.to be honest it is the only way forward i can figure in my circumstances anyway and everyones different.really i would love to hear replies for or against but especially if you are doing it now.:) thank you

pull out your profit monitor and crunch some numbers; extra litres sold V higher feed costs (fertilizer,feed and contractor), don't forget to divide the higher litres into the other costs also as this is where you will gain the most, when you go over 8000l no matter what stocking rate you apply your profit margin will fall significantly. personally i think this works better in a 100% autumn calving system but it can work in the spring, just bear in mind A+B-C is here to stay so breed for solids and feed for production and if your grass utilisation is top notch your plan will be a good one. you have obviously costed the lease and the capital spend on new infastructure so if this has been done correctly you are right to ignore it and look at the alternatives,
on what you discussion group colleague said is correct if you have a large milking block, but just like the guys who are failing in the high out-put system, not many low-input guys are getting 450kgs/milk solids.

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

pull out your profit monitor and crunch some numbers; extra litres sold V higher feed costs (fertilizer,feed and contractor), don't forget to divide the higher litres into the other costs also as this is where you will gain the most, when you go over 8000l no matter what stocking rate you apply your profit margin will fall significantly. personally i think this works better in a 100% autumn calving system but it can work in the spring, just bear in mind A+B-C is here to stay so breed for solids and feed for production and if your grass utilisation is top notch your plan will be a good one. you have obviously costed the lease and the capital spend on new infastructure so if this has been done correctly you are right to ignore it and look at the alternatives,
on what you discussion group colleague said is correct if you have a large milking block, but just like the guys who are failing in the high out-put system, not many low-input guys are getting 450kgs/milk solids.

this is not totally true-
a farm i know has a herd avg 8500@ 4.03fat and 3.52prot feeding 3kg meal per day and 6in winter and his cost of meal/litre is only 3.9cent- milk is also worth 1.89cent more than avg

so bang goes that theory

funny man

stanflt wrote: »

this is not totally true-
a farm i know has a herd avg 8500@ 4.03fat and 3.52prot feeding 3kg meal per day and 6in winter and his cost of meal/litre is only 3.9cent- milk is also worth 1.89cent more than avg

so bang goes that theory

quoting a specific farm showing meal costs (not feed costs) proves nothing, as we all heard of the farmer with almost zero cost/litre but no money to put food on the table. my quotes are no theory unless stated.

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

quoting a specific farm showing meal costs (not feed costs) proves nothing, as we all heard of the farmer with almost zero cost/litre but no money to put food on the table. my quotes are no theory unless stated.

when i talk more to this lad ill post his cost for 1st 6months of this year- give him a few days to get profit moniter up to date

bob charles

lads anything is possible, just because the most in the mainstream couldnt make it work doesnt mean its a non runner for all. Nutrition is everything, cost dont need to be astronomical, but allot of thinking and knowledge is required to make such a system work.

keep going

one thing i dont understand about this debate is if high input/high output cows are more profitable,why does liquid milk require a higher price.shouldnt they produce it cheaper ifs more profitable to run that system..on liquid milk why are the boys in the north able to do it cheaper than here,why cant we compete

jeff greene

keep going wrote: »

one thing i dont understand about this debate is if high input/high output cows are more profitable,why does liquid milk require a higher price.shouldnt they produce it cheaper ifs more profitable to run that system..on liquid milk why are the boys in the north able to do it cheaper than here,why cant we compete

I'm not sure, plenty of quota, better farmers, different mindset?

jeff greene

Hypothetically, in a non quota situation, two similar sized farms in a competitive dairy region, which system would you choose?

Farmer A – 100 cows x 9000 litres, no leased land, buildings and other infrasture in place, own labour

Farmer B – 200 crossbreds x 4500 litres, extra land needed, more cows, needs winter housing, bigger parlour and more labour.

Birdnuts

I'm open to correction here but hasn't there been fertility problems recently with very high yielding British Friesians. I know of a number of farmers that have turned to Brown Swiss blood to deal with this problem. The latter are a lovely breed to work with btw:)

jeff greene

Birdnuts wrote: »

I I know of a number of farmers that have turned to Brown Swiss blood to deal with this problem. The latter are a lovely breed to work with btw:)

Have you tried feeding them milk as calves As for temperment, the holstein is faultless imo.

Fertility can be problem if holsteins aren't cared for properly, better chance if anything in a higher input system.

flatout11

the problem with this is that it turns into a high versus low input debate, reality is most are stuck in the middle,
take 2 well managed systems:
where milk price is high and grain reasonable ... high wins
whare milk price is low and grain high ... low wins
there are of course shades of grey- and huge efficiencies to be gained

problem is with a limited land base and from the sounds of it at 2.4 lu a good stocking rate your options are limited.
to go the higher output route is an option as bob pionted out good nutritional mabagement is important, altough unless your in a system where your mixing silage and maize a diet feeder is a expensive wheel barrow --- --- even then???? anyway for the guys up north producing up to 80 DMD silage + concentrates there are other ways of achieving it

tipp man is right at the end of the day its about making money
dont really belive i the low cost keep everything to a minimum guys - but then again then again the other extreme aint much better
can you get silage ground within a 10 - 15 mile radius even if acres are limited , maize may be an option this would allow you to either push up numbers (depending on housing) or move to a more intensive system

Birdnuts

jeff greene wrote: »

Have you tried feeding them milk as calves As for temperment, the holstein is faultless imo.

Fertility can be problem if holsteins aren't cared for properly, better chance if anything in a higher input system.

Well - never had any trouble with their heifers/cows, the ones I worked with were like pets. Holsteins are quiet too but I did nearly meet my maker at the hands of a Holstein bull once!!. I was subsequently told they(Holstein and Friesian bulls) have quiet the reputation for that kind of thing.

funny man

keep going wrote: »

one thing i dont understand about this debate is if high input/high output cows are more profitable,why does liquid milk require a higher price.shouldnt they produce it cheaper ifs more profitable to run that system..on liquid milk why are the boys in the north able to do it cheaper than here,why cant we compete

No one said high input/high output cows are more profitable, i was just saying that i thought matts plan was workable once he has done the figures on it.

funny man

jeff greene wrote: »

Hypothetically, in a non quota situation, two similar sized farms in a competitive dairy region, which system would you choose?

Farmer A – 100 cows x 9000 litres, no leased land, buildings and other infrasture in place, own labour

Farmer B – 200 crossbreds x 4500 litres, extra land needed, more cows, needs winter housing, bigger parlour and more labour.

in a non quota situation

Farmer A 100 cows x 640kgs/milk solids = 64,000 total @€;4 = €256,000

Farmer B 200 cows x 420kgs/ms = 84,000 total @€;4 = €336,000

i assume both owned land same area ho/fr 600kgs, xbreds 500kg so stocking rate will be 2.5lu/hec and 3lu/hec respectively so on the owned block an extra 20 xbreds can be carried and an extra 27 hectares will be rented at €370/hec or €10,000 total, labour would be between €20,000 and €40,000 depending on how much work you do yourself , capital spend €600 x 100cow for accomadation and €3000 x 12 units in the parlour gives a total spend of €96,000,
usually there is a cost differance of around plus .5cent/kgms so that gives the xbreds an extra €42,000 less on cost, so this would pay the labour unit and the €80,000 will cover the extra land charge, extra stock and infrastructure and pay off any loans.

Less work and more pay does it everytime!

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

Farmer A 100 cows x 640kgs/milk solids = 64,000 total @€;4 = €256,000

Farmer B 200 cows x 420kgs/ms = 84,000 total @€;4 = €336,000

i assume both owned land same area ho/fr 600kgs, xbreds 500kg so stocking rate will be 2.5lu/hec and 3lu/hec respectively so on the owned block an extra 20 xbreds can be carried and an extra 27 hectares will be rented at €370/hec or €10,000 total, labour would be between €20,000 and €40,000 depending on how much work you do yourself , capital spend €600 x 100cow for accomadation and €3000 x 12 units in the parlour gives a total spend of €96,000,
usually there is a cost differance of around plus .5cent/kgms so that gives the xbreds an extra €42,000 less on cost, so this would pay the labour unit and the €80,000 will cover the extra land charge, extra stock and infrastructure and pay off any loans.

Less work and more pay does it everytime!

Interesting! Thanks for taking the time.

Its more interesting how you arrived at those output figures, what %’s have you for the 4500litre xbreds and the 10000 litre cows. Lets not be prejudice in thinking the Holstein can’t have good %’s

Also doesn’t the nitrates directive dictate stocking rate, more map acres will be needed at least.

€600 for accommodation and slurry storage, not so sure there. It has to be in place if needed or not.

The elephant in the room of course is actually getting money to fund all that. Have you seen the news all week, its depressing

Run it again but this time have both outputs the same. I don’t follow your last point on the less work, are you saying there is less work in 200 cows than in 100 cows because ifs its about buffer feeding ayr, ½ hour job or treating sickly Holstein, give me a break, they can all get sick if not managed properly, or milking ayr? not the drag its made out to be, its not like you can disappear for the winter is it, still need to be there

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

in a non quota situation

Farmer A 100 cows x 640kgs/milk solids = 64,000 total @€;4 = €256,000

Farmer B 200 cows x 420kgs/ms = 84,000 total @€;4 = €336,000

i assume both owned land same area ho/fr 600kgs, xbreds 500kg so stocking rate will be 2.5lu/hec and 3lu/hec respectively so on the owned block an extra 20 xbreds can be carried and an extra 27 hectares will be rented at €370/hec or €10,000 total, labour would be between €20,000 and €40,000 depending on how much work you do yourself , capital spend €600 x 100cow for accomadation and €3000 x 12 units in the parlour gives a total spend of €96,000,
usually there is a cost differance of around plus .5cent/kgms so that gives the xbreds an extra €42,000 less on cost, so this would pay the labour unit and the €80,000 will cover the extra land charge, extra stock and infrastructure and pay off any loans.

Less work and more pay does it everytime!

88 high yielding hols/fr will give 640kg solids-not 100 as assumed above-people are looking at cross breeding when they dont realise that through proper breeding the hols/fr will win any day. where will you be in 5years down the cross breeding route, maybe unsaleable culls, bulls and replacements.

256k vs 336k

double costs on double cows-same vet bills- same semen bills- both will eat the same amount.


if your situation is 200cows and more effecient you can welcome me to your open day- if not we can talk at mine in the near future:p

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

in a non quota situation

Farmer A 100 cows x 640kgs/milk solids = 64,000 total @€;4 = €256,000

Farmer B 200 cows x 420kgs/ms = 84,000 total @€;4 = €336,000

i assume both owned land same area ho/fr 600kgs, xbreds 500kg so stocking rate will be 2.5lu/hec and 3lu/hec respectively so on the owned block an extra 20 xbreds can be carried and an extra 27 hectares will be rented at €370/hec or €10,000 total, labour would be between €20,000 and €40,000 depending on how much work you do yourself , capital spend €600 x 100cow for accomadation and €3000 x 12 units in the parlour gives a total spend of €96,000,
usually there is a cost differance of around plus .5cent/kgms so that gives the xbreds an extra €42,000 less on cost, so this would pay the labour unit and the €80,000 will cover the extra land charge, extra stock and infrastructure and pay off any loans.

Less work and more pay does it everytime!

sorry thats 88 at 8500litres with 66% of herd in 1or 2nd lact and avg age of herd @4years 2months.:)

tb is a bummer

funny man

jeff greene wrote: »

Interesting! Thanks for taking the time.

Its more interesting how you arrived at those output figures, what %’s have you for the 4500litre xbreds and the 10000 litre cows. Lets not be prejudice in thinking the Holstein can’t have good %’s

Also doesn’t the nitrates directive dictate stocking rate, more map acres will be needed at least.

€600 for accommodation and slurry storage, not so sure there. It has to be in place if needed or not.

The elephant in the room of course is actually getting money to fund all that. Have you seen the news all week, its depressing

Run it again but this time have both outputs the same. I don’t follow your last point on the less work, are you saying there is less work in 200 cows than in 100 cows because ifs its about buffer feeding ayr, ½ hour job or treating sickly Holstein, give me a break, they can all get sick if not managed properly, or milking ayr? not the drag its made out to be, its not like you can disappear for the winter is it, still need to be there

Firstly i used 7% and 9% solids because both yields you set are extremes. I agree the Ho/fr can give much better solids at lower yields just as the xbreds can give more milk if they are fully fed.

I'm open to correction but you can get a derogation uo to 2.95lu/hect and that's over the whole farm, in most cases the young stock aren't stocked as tight, so i stand by 3 for any mature breed at 500kgs.

I have built it for less but i used some existing yards and sheds, i'm currently pricing an extension to my milking parlour so the 3k/unit is accurate.

The finance isn't a problem if there isn't alot of debt been carried already, all banks are interested, but not in guys who have no quota and big ideas.

What way do you want me to run it, with the same amount of kgs of milk solids produced?. Less work comes with employing a labour unit and i do believe there is as much work buffer feeding and milking all year round as moving wires out in the middle of a big field of kale or going out at mid-night to let the cows back in.

keep going

look you can do figures at any given time that would swing one way or other but at end its the overall strategy the counts.high yield or low yield its how you manage your grass in the diet will decide how profitable you are .that is our competitive advantage otherwise our costs would be even higher than other countries.as for matt look at the cows you have, look at infastruture,what type of person are you and honestly rate how you are preforming now.maybe get an outsider to look at things they might throw a few ideas at you

funny man

stanflt wrote: »

88 high yielding hols/fr will give 640kg solids-not 100 as assumed above-people are looking at cross breeding when they dont realise that through proper breeding the hols/fr will win any day. where will you be in 5years down the cross breeding route, maybe unsaleable culls, bulls and replacements.

256k vs 336k

double costs on double cows-same vet bills- same semen bills- both will eat the same amount.


if your situation is 200cows and more effecient you can welcome me to your open day- if not we can talk at mine in the near future:p

Sorry stanfit but this isn't comparing me to someone else, jeff posted an interesting question and i responded with my views, i always believe debate is good and one should always keep an open mind, your view that Ho/fr wins everyday isn't correct nor is the one that everyone should crossbreed their cows, you don't seem to understand that crossbreeding if done correctly would solve alot of problems for some farmers. Your line on unsaleable culls, bulls and replacements shows that you don't grasp where profit comes for the vast majority of dairy farmers.

256k vs 336k

double costs on double cows-same vet bills- same semen bills- both will eat the same amount

256k vs 336k is output not costs

For anyone expanding their business if you double your cows your costs don't double, you get a dilution effect extra cost is spread over more kgs of milk solids, i was comparing 200 xbreds v 100 ho/fr not 200 ho/fr v 100 ho/fr and yes the larger cows do eat more.

if your situation is 200cows and more effecient you can welcome me to your open day- if not we can talk at mine in the near future

like i said i was answering a hypotetical question, i milk 125 ho/fr cows that give around 6500 litres last year with woefull bad fertility, all served to jersey bulls so i don't think there will ever be an open day here but if there is one at yours i'd be only to delighted to attend as you sound to be a top class operator.

jeff greene

It was such a hypothetical question that as a result its pointless as there are so many variables in reality, existing infrastructure, cow type, level of borrowings, availability of extra land to lease or buy that can be grazed, skills, mindset, age, successor, etc.

I feel somewhere in the middle is where I'll end up, land for grazing isn't likely to become available anytime soon. Milk cows in prodominatly spring calving, 8000 litres +, I have started putting more emphasis on solids in bull selection and will continue to.

Of course, if we could get a decent price for our milk, there wouldn't be this all consuming need to expand and expand again.

mossy1

stanflt wrote: »

when i talk more to this lad ill post his cost for 1st 6months of this year- give him a few days to get profit moniter up to date

Did you get any more info off the guy you know like what he feeds during winter , does he buffer feed during summer stuff like that??