House seems low on electrical power

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

This will be like the conduit arguement, but the 2 paralleled cables would not need the current carrying capacity of a 50 square, only the smaller volt drop, they are not the same thing precisely. The single cable is never going to be overloaded here, it just has too high a volt drop, so two in parallel will never have either cable carrying its rated capacity in the OP scenario here.

Also, there will be differences in impedences even of a 100 meter length of cable cut in half.

Two paralleled cables dont need to carry exactly half of the current each, but in practice they likely will be very close anyway. Also 2 smaller cables have a slightly higher capacity than a single big one anyway, so a slight variation in the split current is not a problem.

Robbie, I agree with 99% of the above. I served my time as an industrial electrician a long time ago. Most of my experience has been industrial and that is not the way I have ever paralleled power cables or seen it done. As I said:

You can argue that it would still work (and you would probably be correct), but it would not be done correctly or in a professional manner (as far as I am concerned).

To me there is only one correct way to parallel power cables. You could argue that I am going overboard (and you would not be the first!).

Each to their own, but to me it would be a gunter of the highest order not to do it as I suggested.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Robbie, I agree with 99% of the above. I served my time as an industrial electrician a long time ago. Most of my experience has been industrial and that is not the way I have ever paralleled power cables or seen it done.

I served my time last month in an attic:eek:, or was it yellow van land:eek: and usually parallel them in strip connectors myself:)

To me there is only one correct way to parallel power cables. You could argue that I am going overboard (and you would not be the first!).

Never said that, im merely stating that parallelling power cables in industrial installations is to increase their current carrying capacity to the size of a single bigger cable, as well as voltage drop of course, which are related, usually to make the cable easier to install, or more practical. They also have a higher rating than the single bigger one. But in industrial parallel`d cables, the current is likely to be higher than either cable on its own is rated to. Not so in the op case here.

Each to their own, but to me it would be a gunter of the highest order not to do it as I suggested.

The last time i paralleled cables it was in a hotel, 6 single 300 squares to each phase of 2 main MCCBs and 4 paralleled to the neutrals, and the same into 2 more from 2 generators except they were 240`s singles, and the cables were about 20 meters long, nothing amazingly great about that, but due to the routing, these cables varied in length by more than a foot from the shortest to the longest, which out of 20 meters is nearly 2 percent, so there is a 2 percent impedence difference there straight away.

For the OP cable anyway, a difference in length of 5 meters will vary the current by less than an amp from one to the other at 63 amps, that was my point, not about how it should be done etc.

Its one thing to bring up what designers and that do, to make the installation as perfect as possible, its another to analyse it ourselves and discuss it based on a situation presented here. Of course the ideal scenario is a 50/50 split. But that cant be absolutely guaranteed beyond doubt.

M cebee

1 amp difference for 5mts difference in length

not a lot really

considering the cost of that swa and the fact that each cable has overload protection here

anyway

i wonder was this a temp supply-i know they were only available at perimeters of sites lately

maybe not

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

1 amp difference for 5mts difference in length

not a lot really

considering the cost of that swa and the fact that each cable has overload protection here

anyway

i wonder was this a temp supply-i know they were only available at perimeters of sites lately

maybe not

At the end of the day, the 50 sq would be carrying the current a 16 square can carry. Not the current that requires 50 sq, it only needs the 50sq because of the length of run. Its all extremely simple, but being made to seem complex. The cowboy work here is what has been done already. So the slight difference in lengths would not be the real problem, its just the original way the job was done thats the problem.

M cebee

http://www.batt.co.uk/products/view/610/Split-Concentric-Cable-BS7870


maybe a bit of split concentric

Dardania

Maybe the meter was put at the gate because ESB N wanted access to the meter (for usual reasons), but OP has a locked gate, and didn't want a keysafe?

2011

Dardania wrote: »

Maybe the meter was put at the gate because ESB N wanted access to the meter (for usual reasons), but OP has a locked gate, and didn't want a keysafe?

I doubt it.
I have seen many houses in the countryside that have long lanes, locked electric gates and the meters are at the house. Often the ESB deliberately install pole mounted transformers local to the house and/or yard.

From a security point of view electric gates are becoming more popular in rural areas.

Kieran007

I was away and only checked my post today. Thank you all so much for some very valuable insights of what I should do next.

Ok so here is what happened. The house is actually 45m from the road. When we started building the house we required electricity onsite. The ESB with a little persuasion agreed to install the meter if we built a "permanent structure" at the gate. This consisted of a small block wall, cost me almost nothing to build. At this point Esb was happy, builder was happy, i was happy.

Then we laid duct from there into the house. I wanted the duct to take a specific route into the house, down the side, along the back and U turn into the house and terminate in a basement area. This duct run is 135m.

I asked the electrical contractor who was involved in the meter site installation from day one, and he said to me to get 3x25mm2 SWA cable.

But the story gets a little worse. I also have a garage, which had it's own connection from the meter (not connected yet) it is also 135m from the meter, he told me 3x16mm2 would suffice for this. I have the cable laid in the duct ready to be connected when necessary.

I would say the transformer is about 350m from the ESB meter.

As a solution it seems the best option is to get the ESB to move the meter. The best place is the outside wall of the garage. The distance from the garage to the house is 40m, please tell me 25mm cable will suffice....I'll have 135m spare .

As regarding my loads. I don't have electric showers but in the summer I sometimes heat hot water with a 3kw immersion. I also have a heat recovery ventilation unit running 24/7 I believe this is about a 60w motor, but I notice every time the immersion comes on the noise of this motor changes which indicates to me it is not running on full power. Could this shorten the life of the motor?

I spoke with the electrical contractor......... he said a lot, but the main point he said was that if there is a problem with voltage drop it is easily solved by asking the ESB to change the fuse from 63amp to 80amp. I notice nobody suggested this on the board. Is it a feasible solution?? In fairness I think we all agree the electrical contractor's advise to date has been poor:).

Mike2006

25mm2 is fine for your 40m run.

The 16mm2 will be fine to the garage then as well if you have the ESB box there.

Only problem I see now is getting the ESB to move the box back to the garage.
They don't like moving boxes to locations where they have to pass a window on the house. Privacy issues etc..


btw, it sounds like your electrical contractor knows jack sh1t about how electricty works... The fuses are there to protect the cable from over current. Increasing the fuse size will do nothing for you.

Your problem is there because when you load the cable, by the time the electricity gets to your appliance you are down on voltage e.g. 210V instead of 220V and the applicance doesn't like that so it slows down, or flickers or whatever....

You could speak to the ESB about changing the taps on their transformer to increase the output voltage if possible. I don't know what kind of traffos they use or what taps they have on them, but it could be worth a call all the same. This will only be an option if you are the only user on the transformer.

Mike.

Bruthal

Kieran007 wrote: »

I also have a heat recovery ventilation unit running 24/7 I believe this is about a 60w motor, but I notice every time the immersion comes on the noise of this motor changes which indicates to me it is not running on full power. Could this shorten the life of the motor?

This is not unusual even with properly connected installations. A slight dip in voltage would occur when immersion type loads come on, due to cable impedence, which can sometimes be heard with motors slowing slightly, or very slight dip in lights etc. Another example of a motor changing tone from a load reducing the voltage would be in a shower as the element comes in after a few seconds or if it its switched from cold to hot while running.

All of this would be more noticeable with the very long meter tails.

I spoke with the electrical contractor......... he said a lot, but the main point he said was that if there is a problem with voltage drop it is easily solved by asking the ESB to change the fuse from 63amp to 80amp. I notice nobody suggested this on the board. Is it a feasible solution??

Are you sure you didnt ask the kitchen fitter by mistake?:D

M cebee

i was right anyhow
subbies have gennies

M cebee

you went 90M extra with the temp

now you you want a meter on the garage

LLU

Mike2006 wrote: »

You could speak to the ESB about changing the taps on their transformer to increase the output voltage if possible. I don't know what kind of traffos they use or what taps they have on them, but it could be worth a call all the same. This will only be an option if you are the only user on the transformer.

Mike.

would they actually do something like that? this would mean that when there is no load on his system, you'd have a voltage higher than the norm which could theoretically damage some equipment. just curious.

2011

LLU wrote: »

would they actually do something like that? this would mean that when there is no load on his system, you'd have a voltage higher

I would be very surprised if they would do this for a domestic installation.

In my opinion the ESB will supply the customer with the correct voltage only (230VAC) at the terminals of the meter, it would then be up to the electrical contractor and/or electrical designer to ensure that the volt drop at the customer end is not excessive. This would be achieved by selecting the correct cable size(s).

M cebee

no esbn wont do this

as for upgrading thr cutout fuse

its a comedy of errors

he needs to get someone onsite that has a clue

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I would be very surprised if they would do this for a domestic installation.

In my opinion the ESB will supply the customer with the correct voltage only (230VAC) at the terminals of the meter

It can vary quite a bit from 230v though. 230v is the nominal. From 207 to 253 i think they undertake to deliver.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

It can vary quite a bit from 230v though. 230v is the nominal. From 207 to 253 i think they undertake to deliver.

Correct, but the average they aim for is 230V not higher.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

no esbn wont do this

as for upgrading thr cutout fuse

its a comedy of errors

he needs to get someone onsite that has a clue

With the meter so far from the installation, it will be reading higher than the actual appliances are using as well, so if a 1kw 230v element is only getting 210v, it will output 830 watts, but if the voltage at the meter is 230v, it will read 910w there. The losses in the cable are being metered, as they always are, but its more apparent in a long run such as here, especially when the cable is inadequate.

If the meter is close to the 1kw element, and has 230v at the element, then the meter reading will be higher than above, but at least the heater will be giving out the amount being metered, or very close to it, and efficiency of metered watts will be higher.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Correct, but the average they aim for is 230V not higher.

Im just pointing out that saying they will supply the correct voltage only(230v) at the meter, can be misleading. They will undertake to supply a nominal 230v, so the aim is 230v, not above 230v as you said, but not below either, but its not abnormal to be 220v or 240v which is what i usually have. At least my kettle will boil faster:D

The reality is though, it cant be exact. The problem in the OP`s case here is, inadequate tails will cause a wide voltage variation at the point of use because of his own varying loads, while the voltage at the meter will remain stable within the 230v nominal range, assuming the cables from the transformer to the meter are good.

Munster64

Firstly get a written report from the ESB to confirm their supply is ok.
This electrician must be a member of RECI or ESSA, it is a bad reflection if their member thinks changing the fuse size will sort out a volt drop problem. It will not. You should report this installation to RECI or ESSA (depends on who he is a member of). They will have to issue you with a written report. Low voltage can cause problems with motors etc. I would not be suprised to hear in the near future that you have problems with your washing machine . I would suggest that untill the matter is resolved, that you do not have both the washing machine and the dryer on together. I am assuming your dryer is electric, if it is gas, the electrical load would be very small, and in that case you could have it on with the washing machine.

What i have read suggests the electrician made a mistake when he calculated/designed the size of the cable from the meter to the fusebox. You may have rights under the Sales of goods and supply of services act 1980, and under contract law.

Bruthal

Munster64 wrote: »

Firstly get a written report from the ESB to confirm their supply is ok.
This electrician must be a member of RECI or ESSA, it is a bad reflection if their member thinks changing the fuse size will sort out a volt drop problem. It will not.

Being a member of the above would not prove or indicate technical competence though probably. A bit bizare that any electrician would believe the fuse thing alright though, but there are plenty that are clueless in many aspects of how electrical principles work.

I would not be suprised to hear in the near future that you have problems with your washing machine.

The washing machine primary motor is likely a universal motor, so it shouldnt have any problems, and the pump motor in it is a shaded pole form of induction motor, again, they dont really suffer too badly from low voltage, unlike proper induction motors driving heavy loads, which would trip overloads on low voltage. If the voltage was so low on such motors that the overloads wont trip, then there is no damage being done anyway.

M cebee

dont think theres too many reports needed here

if. its one registered contractor throughout-maybe

.G.

We really need to end self certification in this country.

The lad who put this in clearly hasn't a bog what he's doing yet he can cert everything himself that its all bang on,then further indicate his original stupidity by spouting out complete garbage about upgrading fuses to solve the problem.

.G.

deleted

2011

superg wrote: »

We really need to end self certification in this country.

+ 1

I have said this many times.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

Im just pointing out that saying they will supply the correct voltage only(230v) at the meter, can be misleading. They will undertake to supply a nominal 230v, so the aim is 230v, not above 230v as you said, but not below either, but its not abnormal to be 220v or 240v which is what i usually have. At least my kettle will boil faster:D

Your point is that the voltage varies, I agreed with you.

My response was a reply to a suggestion that the ESB may increase the supply voltage to compensate for the volt drop.
My point was that I do not feel they would in a situation like this.

Being a member of the above would not prove or indicate technical competence though probably

Many moons ago, when joining the ECSSA I had to prove that I was a qualified electrician.
Surely that demonstrates some level of competance?
Although a thread like this would make you wonder :rolleyes:

2011

Munster64 wrote: »

Firstly get a written report from the ESB to confirm their supply is ok.

I see nothing to suggest that there is an issue on the ESB side.

You should report this installation to RECI or ESSA (depends on who he is a member of). They will have to issue you with a written report.

+1

What i have read suggests the electrician made a mistake when he calculated/designed the size of the cable from the meter to the fusebox

From what I have read it suggests that no calculation was done at all. I would say it was a case of "sure it'll be grand!"

You may have rights under the Sales of goods and supply of services act 1980, and under contract law.

I am no expert on legal matters but the legal route is not one that I would like to go down! It can be costly, time consuming and often ineffective.

Besides most of the "cowboy" outfits have folded now.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Your point is that the voltage varies, I agreed with you.

Well my point was it wont just definitely vary each side of 230v at every installation. My voltage is always close to 240v here for example.

My response was a reply to a suggestion that the ESB may increase the supply voltage to compensate for the volt drop.
My point was that I do not feel they would in a situation like this.

Agreed.

Im still surprised the meter would be installed in a position which is not part of the metered building in a domestic situation though.

Many moons ago, when joining the ECSSA I had to prove that I was a qualified electrician.
Surely that demonstrates some level of competance?

It would demonstrate an apprenticeship was completed at least.

That would not demonstrate electrical principles knowledge though, such as the fuse thing mentioned, even though it seems incredibly obvious to posters here. Many electricians pass the exams, then never again have any cause to remember any of it.

It would not even demonstrate for certian, that a qualified person has a clue.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

My voltage is always close to 240v here for example.

Fair enough, but they aim is a nominal value of 230VAC.

Im still surprised the meter would be installed in a position which is not part of the metered building in a domestic situation though.

Although it is not the norm it does not surprise me.

From the ESB's perspective:
1) No regulations are broken by doing this.
2) It is in a good location for the meter reader.
3) The issues that the customer is having are not the ESB's responsibility (or fault)

It would demonstrate an apprenticeship was completed at least

...and passed an apprenticeship.

Being a qualified electrician demonstrates that an individual has achieved a level of competence by gaining a recognized qualification.

That would not demonstrate electrical principles knowledge though, such as the fuse thing mentioned, even though it seems incredibly obvious to posters here.

If someone does not have some level of electrical understanding how could they possibly pass the exams necessary to become a qualified electrician?

You also have to remember that some electricians simply don't give a sh!t.

Many electricians pass the exams, then never again have any cause to remember any of it.

I agree, but you could apply that argument to anything.

It would not even demonstrate for certian, that a qualified person has a clue.

What can demonstrate this for certain??

I think the only way to be sure is to do as Superg suggested:

We really need to end self certification in this country.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I think the only way to be sure is to do as Superg suggested:

Possibly, but again, RECCI tests could be passed even with cowboy work, although less likely.

What was the suggestion, that RECI themselves do the testing?

And what tests would the OP`s installation have failed?