House seems low on electrical power

M cebee

i dunno whats going on here

for all we know the spark may have sized the tails for 45mtrs not 135

there may be different sparks for house and temp supply

and it appears the op hasnt applied for a permanent supply to house which he should have done

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

for all we know the spark may have sized the tails for 45mtrs not 135

Well if he is qualified, he must be competent:pac:

Dardania

Not to defend the progonal numpty of an electrician, who evidently can't size cables, but two things strike me here:

1. When he mentioned changing the fuse from63A to 80A, maybe what he meant was that the client should apply for an enhanced supply from ESB Networks, and in doing so they would upgrade thier supply cable to the meter, which would give a a higher voltage at the meter - and in doing so overcome the voltdrop over the tails?

2. M ceebee's point may be correct - the distance of the house from the meter mightn't have been 100% clear, or it might have been sized for a run to a builders site hut, over the phone, and only when arrived on site the actual length was found out...

Notwithstanding the above, the original electrician seems to have done a terrible job, and is looking for ways to blame others to get out of it.

Maybe the client should ask to see the electricans original cable sizing calc - he possibly sizes it for 2.5kVA:rolleyes:

Bruthal

Dardania wrote: »

1. When he mentioned changing the fuse from63A to 80A, maybe what he meant was that the client should apply for an enhanced supply from ESB Networks, and in doing so they would upgrade thier supply cable to the meter, which would give a a higher voltage at the meter - and in doing so overcome the voltdrop over the tails?

The unloaded voltage at the meter would be the same, but with a proper cable/short run from the meter to the house, the voltage level will maintain a better level at the house DB.

The client may well have mis-understood what the electrician said.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Being a qualified electrician demonstrates that an individual has achieved a level of competence by gaining a recognized qualification.

What level of competence have they gained? Obviously being qualified is the first requirement level for continuing in this occupation, no arguement there, but the level of competence can vary from having barely scraped through, to being fantastic.

If you believe a person who qualified is now proven as competent, we will have to differ there.

A poster said its a bad reflection on RECI that one of their members thinks a bigger fuse will improve voltage level. I say being a member of any of these body`s is no indication of a persons technical understandings. It is an indication they may have completed an apprenticeship if they show them they are qualified. Thats all i said.

If someone does not have some level of electrical understanding how could they possibly pass the exams necessary to become a qualified electrician?

Everyone has some level of understanding.

Study like mad is one way to pass exams. If a person fails, and has several goes, then barely scrapes through, they are qualified, but it cant be said they had a good grasp, and will be just as highly qualified as a genius at electrical would be.

You also have to remember that some electricians simply don't give a sh!t.

True, but they can still be members of RECI etc, as no level of ability is required to be shown, which, again was my point in reference to a posters post about the OP`s electrician being a reflection of RECI. It seemed a simple point i was making, not that that makes it a correct point.

I agree, but you could apply that argument to anything.

Yes, but my simple point was, electricians dont have to demonstrate their technical understanding to RECI, i dont really have to bring "anything" else into it to suggest thats possibly true.

What can demonstrate this for certain??

As said already, i am not making any point to suggest what would, just the point that no proof of electrical science/principals understanding, or hands on competence is needed to become a member of any body such as RECI. And im not saying it should be. It was just in reply to a poster saying the OPs electrician was a bad reflection of RECI if he believed a bigger fuse would solve the problem. I say how is it a reflection on RECI? They are there to try to maintain a standard, not to screen electricians before they become members. They can do that after, with spot checks.

Very often, clients badly miss quote electricians. So we dont really know if the fuse thing was said as is being stated.

I think the only way to be sure is to do as Superg suggested:

Possibly, but again, RECCI tests could be passed even with cowboy work, although less likely.

On another tangent now, curiosity is here again, so i will try the ammeter in series with myself and 110v traffo this week, in the interests of science and all that, any guess or suggestion as to what milliamps will be shown,, one hand to each pole through the ammeter? Between 10 and 20mA`s id say.

Did it with 12v battery last week to do with a different post, that got about 1mA at the highest reading. 110v is fine, 230v is not one that will be tried though. Its amazing how much more severe it is than 110v.

Dont try this at home anyway.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

The unloaded voltage at the meter would be the same, but with a proper cable/short run from the meter to the house, the voltage level will maintain a better level at the house DB.

Exactly

Dardania:

When he mentioned changing the fuse from63A to 80A, maybe what he meant was that the client should apply for an enhanced supply from ESB Networks, and in doing so they would upgrade thier supply cable to the meter, which would give a a higher voltage at the meter - and in doing so overcome the voltdrop over the tails?

Even with increased MIC the cable was undersized by a massive margin. The volt drop would have been excessive either way.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

What level of competence have they gained? Obviously being qualified is the first requirement level for continuing in this occupation, no arguement there, but the level of competence can vary from having barely scraped through, to being fantastic.

Agreed

If you believe a person who qualified is now proven as competent, we will have to differ there.

I believe that serving your time for 4 years and passing the exams to become a qualified electrician demonstrates a level of competence. That level will vary greatly from electrician to electrician. However during an apprenticeship enough information will have been given to an apprentice to size a cable properly. The problem is that some apprentices / electricians could not be bothered.

Back in the day when I was a contractor I had a simple way of sizing the more complex cable runs. I would simply give my electrical wholesaler the relevant information and they would size the cable for me using a software package (thanks Dave in Eurosales!). This could be done over the phone in rapidly. I could even provide the customer and ECSSA inspector with a printout if required. No technical expertise required.

Everyone has some level of understanding.

Exactly

Study like mad is one way to pass exams. If a person fails, and has several goes, then barely scrapes through, they are qualified, but it cant be said they had a good grasp, and will be just as highly qualified as a genius at electrical would be.

Yes, but my simple point was, electricians dont have to demonstrate their technical understanding to RECI, i dont really have to bring "anything" else into it to suggest thats possibly true.

Correct, but they have to demonstrate technical understanding to the department of education.

Possibly, but again, RECCI tests could be passed even with cowboy work, although less likely.

Back in the day the ESB sent an inspector out. If he was not happy you did not get connected, simple as.

And what tests would the OP`s installation have failed?

Undersized cable resulting in excessive volt drop (>5% of 230)

M cebee

ya excessive VD is a violation >4%

also hows he doing here on Zs? on final ccts


2011-those esb checks back in the day didnt amount to much

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Correct, but they have to demonstrate technical understanding to the department of education.

This is where i would differ in opinion. Passing an exam does not mean there is a good understanding. Exams are memory tests.

Undersized cable resulting in excessive volt drop (>5% of 230)

Yes but will the installation fail any of the installation tests that will be performed? The tails here will be perfect for lighting, tv etc. So which tests will reveal the tails are too small?

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

ya excessive VD is a violation >4%

Yea but i was not asking the rules. If the house here is 45 meters from the gate, but the cable could be 135 meters the way it was run, but the tester assumes it is 45 meters straight from the house to the gate, what tests would show the tester that the cable is not up to the required size for 135 meters, when he assumes it is going more or less direct to the meter?. Is he going to load up the cable to see the volt drop?

This question is in reference to another person testing the installation, if self testing was done away with, as in it may pass all tests.

M cebee

the r1+r2 for those tails is only about 0.2ohm

so wont affect Zs much

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea but i was not asking the rules. If the house here is 45 meters from the gate, but the cable could be 135 meters the way it was run, but the tester assumes it is 45 meters straight from the house to the gate, what tests would show the tester that the cable is not up to the required size for 135 meters, when he assumes it is going more or less direct to the meter?. Is he going to load up the cable to see the volt drop?

This question is in reference to another person testing the installation, if self testing was done away with, as in it may pass all tests.

testing voltage drop is actually listed on. testing sequence in wiring rules

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

testing voltage drop is actually listed on. testing sequence in wiring rules

Meter tails votage drop?

M cebee

yes installation VD in 525 is measured from main supply point

this includes tails

but its. not a mandatory test

manormyth

evosteo wrote: »

more than likely will also need a distribution board upgrade also due to the larger sized cables been terminated

not true...

manormyth

The larger the cable you use the better never mind the cost you will make it all back in "power loss" savings with in no time and continue to make these savings in to the future.
remove the old cable and when you run the new cable before you enter your DB step it down to a smaller size cable to suit the DB. probs best use a good juction box beside the DB for this.

Bruthal

manormyth wrote: »

The larger the cable you use the better never mind the cost you will make it all back in "power loss" savings with in no time.

Well if the meter is up at the house, losses before the meter wont be paid for by the resident.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

ya excessive VD is a violation >4%

+1 Thanks

2011-those esb checks back in the day didnt amount to much

Perhaps that was your experience.

I remember the ESB throughly checking an installation I helped with (when I was about 15). Maybe he just didn't like us :D:D

Even if the ESB checks did not mean much, my point is that I feel it would be best if a 3rd party was responsible for certifying all electrical installations. That way in the case of the OP the contractor would have faced a stark choice:
A) Complete the work to the relevant standard ET:101
Don't get paid

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Even if the ESB checks did not mean much, my point is that I feel it would be best if a 3rd party was responsible for certifying all electrical installations. That way in the case of the OP the contractor would have faced a stark choice:
A) Complete the work to the relevant standard ET:101
Don't get paid

What if the 3rd party certifies it, is it now going to be their responsibility if something later appears or goes wrong?

M cebee

yes the op prob needs a new connection at this stage

this is his fault

hopefully the guy who wired the house is registered



temp supplies onsite were scrapped as there was a sharp practise of hiring a registered guy for the temp and a n other would wire house and connect to meter

i fell victim to this scam more than once

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

This is where i would differ in opinion. Passing an exam does not mean there is a good understanding. Exams are memory tests.

If your point is that the system is not a perfect I agree.

My point is that the best way to asses someone's ability is to test them. If they pass they must have some competence. What would you suggest would be better?

If an electrician is not qualified to size a mains cable then who would you suggest is?

Yes but will the installation fail any of the installation tests that will be performed? The tails here will be perfect for lighting, tv etc. So which tests will reveal the tails are too small?

It would fail due to excessive voltage drop end of story.

The ESB will be providing at least 12kVA therefore the cable should be sized to take a load this size without the volt drop exceeding permissible values. In this case I feel that an independent inspector would not have passed this installation due to under sizing of the mains cable.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

What if the 3rd party certifies it, is it now going to be their responsibility if something later appears or goes wrong?

To be honest I don't know who would be held responsible, the inspector or the contractor.

What I do know is that there would be less chance of regulations being ignored if 3rd party inspection was compulsory for certification.

Perhaps you should direct this question to RECI or the ECSSA?

This system is already in place. As discussed on another thread, a qualified electrician that is not a registered contractor can pay for an ECSSA or RECI inspector to certify their work.

M cebee

standard domestic are 12 or 16 kva

2011

M cebee wrote: »

standard domestic are 12 or 16 kva

Thanks. I could not remember, don't know where I got 13.5 from. I have not worked in domestic or on my tools in years. I will edit my earlier post.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

If your point is that the system is not a perfect I agree.

My point is that the best way to asses someone's ability is to test them. If they pass they must have some competence. What would you suggest would be better?

I said being a member of RECI is no proof of technical knowledge, and RECI dont test them to become members. Seems remarkably simple to be honest.

Where does that statement require that i outline a new apprenticeship method?

If an electrician is not qualified to size a mains cable then who would you suggest is?

Where did i say they are not? Some electricians can, some cant. Some electricians can wire a DOL starter from understanding it, some cant, even though its as simple as a light switch. Some can wire a house, some cant. And they are all qualified.

It would fail due to excessive voltage drop end of story.
In this case I feel that an independent inspector would not have passed this installation due to under sizing of the mains cable.

But we have the advantage of knowing the tails are too small for the 135 meter run. An independent inspector will now come to the house, see its 45 meters from the gate, and so the tails seem ok. What tests will show the tails are too long?

Its easy for us to say

It would fail due to excessive voltage drop end of story.

.......because we know the cable length.

But the normal tests carried out will possibly all pass.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps you should direct this question to RECI or the ECSSA?

Its hypothetical though, so there is no real answer at the moment probably.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Thanks. I could not remember, don't know where I got 13.5 from. I have not worked in domestic or on my tools in years. I will edit my earlier post.

We were talking about this before. 13.5 is nearer the real capacity with a 63 amp fuse in the DB. 12kva is 52 amps. So what is the actual capacity criteria?

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its hypothetical though, so there is no real answer at the moment probably.

Not really. As I pointed out 3rd party certification is possible at present. The only hypothetical part is that self certification is also an option.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Not really. As I pointed out 3rd party certification is possible at present. The only hypothetical part is that self certification is also an option.

Well i meant if 3rd party testing was compulsory, who would be responsible. It was me myself that said in the other thread that i thought RECI could be paid to inspect installations at one time, you conformed they still can.

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

I said being a member of RECI is no proof of technical knowledge, and RECI dont test them to become members. Seems remarkably simple to be honest.

Where does that statement require that i outline a new apprenticeship method?



Where did i say they are not? Some electricians can, some cant. Some electricians can wire a DOL starter from understanding it, some cant, even though its as simple as a light switch. Some can wire a house, some cant. And they are all qualified.



But we have the advantage of knowing the tails are too small for the 135 meter run. An independent inspector will now come to the house, see its 45 meters from the gate, and so the tails seem ok. What tests will show the tails are too long?

Its easy for us to say

.......because we know the cable length.

But the normal tests carried out will possibly all pass.

the methods stated in the rules are checking voltage drop tables or measuring impedances