House seems low on electrical power

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

I said being a member of RECI is no proof of technical knowledge, and RECI dont test them to become members. Seems remarkably simple to be honest.

There is proof of technical training. How would you suggest you prove technical knowledge if your position is that tests only test memory?

But we have the advantage of knowing the tails are too small for the 135 meter run. An independent inspector will now come to the house, see its 45 meters from the gate, and so the tails seem ok. What tests will show the tails are too long?

He could:
1) Measure the run and calculate
2) Apply a large load and measure the voltage at the furthest point.

Its easy for us to say

.......because we know the cable length.

But the normal tests carried out will possibly all pass.

I don't agree. I know a long run when I see one. If I saw this board and meter location at a glance I would know straight off that it the cable run must be over 100m. I bet you would spot this too?

On that basis I would know that a calculation should have been done. If I were an inspector I would investigate further.

Even if an inspector were to miss this, I will bet this installation has many other issues that an inspector would have spotted.

I am not suggesting that 3rd party inspection is some sort of "silver bullet" that would make everything perfect, but I think it would be a massive improvement. Cowboy outfits would have to come up to standard or they would not get paid.

I think we all agree that self certification is not working.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

the methods stated in the rules are checking voltage drop tables or measuring impedances

For the tables, the length needs to be known, which it wouldnt be for a third party tester. I cant see many testing the tails impedence either.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

For the tables, the length needs to be known, which it wouldnt be for a third party tester. I cant see many testing the tails impedence either.

I don't agree.

If there is a long cable run it would not be unreasonable for an inspector to ask the contractor for the length of run.

Also an inspector could:
1) Measure the run and calculate
2) Apply a large load and measure the voltage at the furthest point.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

There is proof of technical training. How would you suggest you prove technical knowledge if your position is that tests only test memory?

No proof of technical knowledge is needed, is it? And technical training is not proof of ability.

I dont need to suggest anything, for about the 10th time, as i was not suggesting there is a better training method. It is plainly obvious some electricians are technically clueless. You disagree, thats fair enough.

Kieran007

From reading all the above here's what I think I should do next.

Go back to electrical contractor and show him the install is not working well. How is best way to prove this? is it simply turn everything on, (washing machine, dryer, 3kw immersion, ovens etc.) and measure voltage at the meter and in the house?

Is it fair to say that if all appliances in a house are on voltage should not go below 230v? And that's the difference between a good and bad installation?

Or is there more sophisticated equipment I need to get?

Suggested solutions:
1. Upgrade cable from 25mm2 to 70mm2.
Pros: No more voltage drop, no new ducting, no need to ask/beg ESB to move meter.
Cons: Cost of cable, but I'll have cable for sale. Will be difficult to terminate onto DB. Will need new electrical contractor:D.

2.Ask ESB to move meter
Pros: Good solution will solve problem. May be expensive.
Cons: I'm pretty sure ducting to house is not ESB grade, will need new ducting, more expense. ESB may charge a lot for moving meter. ESB may not move meter to back of garage.

3. Increase from 12Kva to 16kva supply
Pros: may solve problem
Cons: Still have losses and am paying for electricity I don't use :mad:

4. Do nothing and live with flickering lights and poor supply
Pros: Easy option no stress
Cons: Spend my life paying for 10% to 20% of electricity I never use, and if i ever install something into the house that requires good connections it won't work.

That I think is a summary of VERY VALUABLE posts so far. Thank you all for been so generous with your knowledge. I will do the voltage test(s) today with full load and post results tonight.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

No proof of technical knowledge is needed, is it? And technical training is not proof of ability.

I think that proving that you are a qualified electrician demonstrates beyond all doubt that you have received technical training.
Perhaps we will agree to disagree on this one?

I agree with you that despite this training I would not trust some electricians to change a light bulb.

I dont need to suggest anything, for about the 10th time, as i was not suggesting there is a better training method.

+1

Seeing as though we both agree that some electricians are "clueless" my point is that these same clueless electricians should not be permitted to certify their own work.
If you don't have faith in their work how can you have faith in them assessing it?

It is plainly obvious some electricians are technically clueless. You disagree, thats fair enough.

I don't disagree that some of them are technically clueless.
I disagree with the policy in place that enables them to ignore ETCI regulations with impunity and get away with it.

I also believe that it is possible for electrical work to be assessed throughly. This includes checking if cables are correctly sized.

Bruthal

Kieran007 wrote: »

From reading all the above here's what I think I should do next.

Go back to electrical contractor and show him the install is not working well. How is best way to prove this? is it simply turn everything on, (washing machine, dryer, 3kw immersion, ovens etc.) and measure voltage at the meter and in the house?

Is it fair to say that if all appliances in a house are on voltage should not go below 230v? And that's the difference between a good and bad installation?

With about 60 amps load, the voltage in your house should not drop more than 4%. So measure it with nothing switched on, and if it was 230v, it should stay above 221v at the mcb board, or preferably at each appliance.

Suggested solutions:
1. Upgrade cable from 25mm2 to 70mm2.
Pros: No more voltage drop, no new ducting, no need to ask/beg ESB to move meter.
Cons: Cost of cable, but I'll have cable for sale. Will be difficult to terminate onto DB. Will need new electrical contractor:D.

A more direct route to the house and the 25mm2 could possibly do.

2.Ask ESB to move meter
Pros: Good solution will solve problem. May be expensive.
Cons: I'm pretty sure ducting to house is not ESB grade, will need new ducting, more expense. ESB may charge a lot for moving meter. ESB may not move meter to back of garage.

The best option by far in my opinion anyway.

3. Increase from 12Kva to 16kva supply
Pros: may solve problem
Cons: Still have losses and am paying for electricity I don't use :mad:

This wont help your long meter tails problem what so ever

4. Do nothing and live with flickering lights and poor supply
Pros: Easy option no stress
Cons: Spend my life paying for 10% to 20% of electricity I never use, and if i ever install something into the house that requires good connections it won't work.

You will have no stress once its fixed properly.

That I think is a summary of VERY VALUABLE posts so far. Thank you all for been so generous with your knowledge. I will do the voltage test(s) today with full load and post results tonight.

Just dont be listening to that 2011 fella (jokin of course):D

2011

Kieran007 wrote: »

Go back to electrical contractor and show him the install is not working well. How is best way to prove this? is it simply turn everything on, (washing machine, dryer, 3kw immersion, ovens etc.) and measure voltage at the meter and in the house?

I think it would be better to do the above except measure the voltage at the furthest point on loaded final, such as at the immersion element. Volt drop will be highest here.

Is it fair to say that if all appliances in a house are on voltage should not go below 230v? And that's the difference between a good and bad installation?

If the volt drop is >5% of 230 the volt drop is deemed excessive.

Or is there more sophisticated equipment I need to get?

Your above suggestion will work.

Suggested solutions:
1. Upgrade cable from 25mm2 to 70mm2.
Pros: No more voltage drop, no new ducting, no need to ask/beg ESB to move meter.
Cons: Cost of cable, but I'll have cable for sale. Will be difficult to terminate onto DB. Will need new electrical contractor:D.

Agreed

2.Ask ESB to move meter
Pros: Good solution will solve problem. May be expensive.
Cons: I'm pretty sure ducting to house is not ESB grade, will need new ducting, more expense. ESB may charge a lot for moving meter. ESB may not move meter to back of garage.

The best solution in my opinion

3. Increase from 12Kva to 16kva supply
Pros: may solve problem
Cons: Still have losses and am paying for electricity I don't use :mad:

This will marginally improve the situation, not fix it.

4. Do nothing and live with flickering lights and poor supply
Pros: Easy option no stress
Cons: Spend my life paying for 10% to 20% of electricity I never use, and if i ever install something into the house that requires good connections it won't work.

Lightly damage to appliances will occur.

Bruthal

Not too bad, generaly the same there. We are back on track:)

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I think that proving that you are a qualified electrician demonstrates beyond all doubt that you have received technical training.
Perhaps we will agree to disagree on this one?

Not really, as i never said a qualified electrician received no technical training. What i clearly said was, it does not mean he atained a good technical level of understanding. Obviously they will learn something, and usually enough to work as one.

My point all along was, the electrician in the OP`s installation was seriously lacking in the technical dept if he believed a bigger fuse would inprove volt drop problems in an inadequate cable. When another poster said this was a bad reflection on RECI, i simply stated its not, as a contractors technical understanding level is not assessed by RECI.

You said he passed exams, therefore must have a good understanding. That is where we differed. Now you say some cant be trusted to change a light bulb.

I agree with you that despite this training I would not trust some electricians to change a light bulb.

Seeing as though we both agree that some electricians are "clueless" my point is that these same clueless electricians should not be permitted to certify their own work.
If you don't have faith in their work how can you have faith in them assessing it?

And again, i said electricians dont have to prove how competent they are to be members of RECI etc,. Nor was i saying they should have to, apart from showing they are qualified of course.

RECI should be checking installations regularly enough to see they are up to the required certification standards.

I don't disagree that some of them are technically clueless.
I disagree with the policy in place that enables them to ignore ETCI regulations with impunity and get away with it.

Yes and ignore or are ignorant to electrical common sense.
My worst jobs are, and i find them infuriating, is continuing work after complete cowboys.

I also believe that it is possible for electrical work to be assessed throughly. This includes checking if cables are correctly sized.

It is of course, but it is also possible to do a complete botch of something, even if its just one circuit too short, and connectors pulled into a wall, and get away with it in any tests. (just a made up example)

So we dont need to agree to disagree. We agree really.

Kieran007

With no load I get 232v in the house

When I switch everything on the house reads 209v
But when everything is on I also took a reading at the meter and it was 219v.


But should I get over 230v at the meter always? Is there an ESB issue here also?

Just to clarify the setup. At the road is the ESB Meter box. Beside that is a box containing a 63amp switch/fuse (not sure what to call it) this is part of the domestic installation not the ESB installation. There is a tail from the meter box to the box containing the 63amp fuse. The 25mm2 cable is connected to this 63amp fuse and runs 135m to a distribution box in the house.

Bruthal

Kieran007 wrote: »

With no load I get 232v in the house

When I switch everything on the house reads 209v
But when everything is on I also took a reading at the meter and it was 219v.


But should I get over 230v at the meter always? Is there an ESB issue here also?

Just to clarify the setup. At the road is the ESB Meter box. Beside that is a box containing a 63amp switch/fuse (not sure what to call it) this is part of the domestic installation not the ESB installation. There is a tail from the meter box to the box containing the 63amp fuse. The 25mm2 cable is connected to this 63amp fuse and runs 135m to a distribution box in the house.

Well it looks like the run from the esb traffo to the meter must be a long one also. Maybe the meter connection was setup by them as a temporary site supply so.

The voltage at the meter should be stable enough, but all cables will have some volt drop in them, a circuit is just a series of resistances/resistors consisting of the cables and the load, with the voltages across each being proportional to their resistances i.e the load should have most of the supply voltage and the cable the least.

But usually the meter in a single transformer fed house would be reasonably close to the transformer for voltage stability

But anyway, it looks even more like a proper meter setup is required at the house itself.

Dardania

11V dropped becuase of the ESB's cable, and 10V dropped because of the tails...the numpty sparks may have been on to something with the enhanced connection (to get ESB networks to upgrade the supply to their side)

Robbie is right though - if you get the meter put at the house it will solve all problems