Cops took mates rifle.

jellybaby21

Hi just a question about rifle scope.My mate has just got his first rifle and bought it with scope and silencer.He applied for both on his licence.He got his licence in the post last week and got his gun.Now the cops have told him he was granted the gun licence but not for scope or silencer.Today they came and took his gun to have the scope removed.Should he have received some sort of paper work stating this?So how does he go about getting the scope added to his licence?He is not bothered about the silencer.And one more thing when he told the cop he wanted the scope back today the cop told him he would see what he could do.Where does he stand on this can they keep his scope?

ATB Wayne

Sparks

You don't need a licence for a scope. Not unless it's thermal or night-vision.
You do need permission for the silencer though. Was there an S stamped on his licence?
Call the Superintendent immediately (not anyone of lower rank in the station) and explain what's happened and ask for the firearm, scope (and moderator if there was an S on the licence) to be returned.

Cass

jellybaby21 wrote: »

............Now the cops have told him he was granted the gun licence but not for scope or silencer.Today they came and took his gun to have the scope removed............

Unbelievable. Thats, for want of a better word, an illegal seizure.

Sparks wrote: »

You don't need a licence for a scope. Not unless it's thermal or night-vision.

Massive +1

Call the Superintendent immediately (not anyone of lower rank in the station) and explain what's happened and ask for the firearm, scope (and moderator if there was an S on the licence) to be returned.

Never one to argue, , but forget the phone call and get your mate to get his ass down to the station and see the Super. The only thing they have grounds for taking is the mod if as said above he hasn't gotten the license with an "S".

This is the 4th such incident i've heard off recently with Gardai overstepping their authority and basically making up laws themselves. A license for a scope does not exist so your mate could never satisfy such a demand.

DO NOT let him sit on his hands with this one. Get down and get it sorted. Use the Fireamrs Policy Unit and if necessary some other legal agent to back you up if they gve you grief. I would also report this incident to the relevant Garda authority or ombudsman once your mate gets his rifle back. A clear case of stupidty on the Gardai behalf and a massive over stepping off their authority.



EDIT - Did your mate get any paperwork or receipt for the "seized" gun?

poulo6.5

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Hi just a question about rifle scope.My mate has just got his first rifle and bought it with scope and silencer.He applied for both on his licence.He got his licence in the post last week and got his gun.Now the cops have told him he was granted the gun licence but not for scope or silencer.Today they came and took his gun to have the scope removed.Should he have received some sort of paper work stating this?So how does he go about getting the scope added to his licence?He is not bothered about the silencer.And one more thing when he told the cop he wanted the scope back today the cop told him he would see what he could do.Where does he stand on this can they keep his scope?

ATB Wayne

That sounds a bit odd as you don't need a license for a scope.
What caliber rifle is it. And why did they have to take it away to do it he could have taken it off there and then.

Did your mate do something to piss of the gards

Sparks

poulo6.5 wrote: »

Did your mate do something to piss of the gards

While I'm a great fan of the idea of not taking an unnecessarily adversarial approach to dealing with the AGS (ie. not pissing them off), this is one case where - assuming no salient details have been omitted - I would believe some degree of assertiveness is required. The AGS cannot simply seize a firearm on the grounds that a part of it which does not require a licence - and for which a licence is not legally grantable - doesn't have one.

I'd hazard a guess that this is a case of an inexperienced Garda screwing the pooch - in which case the Super is going to be rather annoyed at that Garda - but the error has to get corrected.

Hell, this is the sort of thing that Barr found was a contributing factor to the Abbeylara fiasco.

jellybaby21

Just a bit of an update.He has now got his .22 back but they have kept the scope and have told him its going into storage.They said they had to bring it to a gun dealer to have the scope removed thats why they had to take the gun.And no he has done nothing to piss them off.They are insisting he wasn't granted a scope on his licence.They have said its new law.At the end of the day the scope is my mates so how can they keep it/

ATB Wayne

Cass

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Just a bit of an update.He has now got his .22 back but they have kept the scope and have told him its going into storage.

Illegal and wrong.

They said they had to bring it to a gun dealer to have the scope removed thats why they had to take the gun.

Bullsh1t. They are making out they took every precaution when removing the "dangerous" scope.

And no he has done nothing to piss them off.

Even more cause to get onto them.

They are insisting he wasn't granted a scope on his licence.

Get him to go back and tell them very clearly .................


YOU DO NOT NEED A LICENSE FOR A SCOPE.

They have said its new law.

Yet more bullsh1t. This is the worse case of stupidity mixed with a little power.

At the end of the day the scope is my mates so how can they keep it/

ATB Wayne

They cannot keep the scope. Plus if they went to a dealer even he would have told them you do not need a license for a scope. Get onto the Super TODAY, and the firearms policy unit. They are on the ball and have no real "side" so will give you a correct answe and right course of action.

poulo6.5

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Just a bit of an update.He has now got his .22 back but they have kept the scope and have told him its going into storage.They said they had to bring it to a gun dealer to have the scope removed thats why they had to take the gun.And no he has done nothing to piss them off.They are insisting he wasn't granted a scope on his licence.They have said its new law.At the end of the day the scope is my mates so how can they keep it/

ATB Wayne

Ok if that's the case then straight into the super and have his solicitor on the phone. Demand the scope back and don't take no for an answer.

They stole his scope.

If this new law exists then every scope in the country is going to be taken off by the gards.

A bit of a slip up that needs to be jumped on straight away before they loose the run of them selves.

Was it an old or youn gard

tfox

jellybaby21 wrote: »

They are insisting he wasn't granted a scope on his licence.They have said its new law.
ATB Wayne

Id love to hear exactly what piece of legislation they are referring to and when it was passed and without anyone in the shooting community hearing about it :mad:

Has he been to speak to the Super yet ? The powers that be really need to educate the men on the street about the current firearms legislation and repremand those that try to create there own :mad:

deerhunter1

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Just a bit of an update.He has now got his .22 back but they have kept the scope and have told him its going into storage.They said they had to bring it to a gun dealer to have the scope removed thats why they had to take the gun.And no he has done nothing to piss them off.They are insisting he wasn't granted a scope on his licence.They have said its new law.At the end of the day the scope is my mates so how can they keep it/

ATB Wayne

talking out of where the sun does not shine, and if it was a gun dealer he should have known better and informed the gardai, do not sit on your laurels with this one:mad:

underthetumb

this sh**e sickens my hole, they(garda) waste resorces on harrassing decent law abiding poeple, but let the dirt drive aroud the countryside lamping with high powered rifles. i know there is some good gardai out there, but these stories just confirm how incompetent some are.

staghunter

90% of gards haven't a notion of the gun law's it's a disgrace.i'd love to know what they teach them in templemore.you'd have some respect for them if they would listen to reason but there always rite.you'l gets as much time out of super as you did would out of guards.straight to soliciter is my advice

Arcto

If this were to happen to someone 'more in the know' what would you do? Point blank refuse to give them the gun? I think I would....god knows where that would go though

Keep us updated on this one and best of luck to your mate, hopefully this won't turn into a drawn out bolloxology court fiasco.

landkeeper

how did they know it had a scope and moderator on it ?
did they just call on chance or did he do something to attract attention to himself .
we are only getting half a story here

No6

underthetumb wrote: »

this sh**e sickens my hole, they(garda) waste resorces on harrassing decent law abiding poeple, but let the dirt drive aroud the countryside lamping with high powered rifles. i know there is some good gardai out there, but these stories just confirm how incompetent some are.

I am sure you mean lamping deer which is of course illegal as opposed to lamping foxes and shooting them with high powered rifles, or even slightly lower powered ones too which isn't as long of course as you're not driving and are off the road!!!

4gun

sounds like a wind up...maybe not

but my question is are you entitled to refuse to hand over a firearm if you know the grounds for seizure is false.. as in this case
do they require papers to take it from your house? warrant ?
what happens if the Guard wants your gun for his own personal reasons...

underthetumb

No6 wrote: »

I am sure you mean lamping deer which is of course illegal as opposed to lamping foxes and shooting them with high powered rifles, or even slightly lower powered ones too which isn't as long of course as you're not driving and are off the road!!!

sorry, yes meant deer

poulo6.5

4gun wrote: »

sounds like a wind up...maybe not

but my question is are you entitled to refuse to hand over a firearm if you know the grounds for seizure is false.. as in this case
do they require papers to take it from your house? warrant ?
what happens if the Guard wants your gun for his own personal reasons...

That's a good question. Can a Gard just decide to take your rifle with some bull**** excuse. Like your gun is black which is a valid as the excuse your gun has a scope.

I wonder is it a case that the Gard mention to take the moderator/ silencer and was confused and took the scope instead.

jellybaby21

landkeeper wrote: »

how did they know it had a scope and moderator on it ?
did they just call on chance or did he do something to attract attention to himself .
we are only getting half a story here

First off you are getting the story how it is.Have you ever applied for a rifle licence?If so you would know there is a box to be marked to say the rifle has a scope and a another box for a silencer thats how the cops knew it had a scope.

ATB Wayne

Spunk84

4gun wrote: »

sounds like a wind up...maybe not

but my question is are you entitled to refuse to hand over a firearm if you know the grounds for seizure is false.. as in this case
do they require papers to take it from your house? warrant ?
what happens if the Guard wants your gun for his own personal reasons...

id stick it in the safe and hide the keys!!!! Tell them to arrest me if they want it:D absolutely terrible if it is a true story....Imagine the headlines, Hunter arrested for having a scope:rolleyes: but imagine the claim against the Gard for pain and suffering!

virminhunter

correct me if I'm wrong but surely your average bog standard guard wouldn't be checking up on licencses, calling around to houses and seizing firearms on his or her own initiative, he'd have to be ordered to do so by a sergeant or firearms officer and surely that person would be well read on the law???

jellybaby21

Ezridax wrote: »

DO NOT let him sit on his hands with this one. Get down and get it sorted. Use the Fireamrs Policy Unit and if necessary some other legal agent to back you up if they gve you grief. I would also report this incident to the relevant Garda authority or ombudsman once your mate gets his rifle back. A clear case of stupidty on the Gardai behalf and a massive over stepping off their authority.

EDIT - Did your mate get any paperwork or receipt for the "seized" gun?

How would he get in contact with the Firearms Policy Unit, is there a number or an e-mail address for them?

4gun wrote: »

sounds like a wind up...maybe not

Not a wind up mate.

Bit of an update, was talking to my mate for a few mins earlier and he rang the super who is to ring him back in the morning, so I will let you know then what the story is.

stick shooter

jellybaby21 wrote: »

First off you are getting the story how it is.Have you ever applied for a rifle licence?If so you would know there is a box to be marked to say the rifle has a scope and a another box for a silencer thats how the cops knew it had a scope.

ATB Wayne

This might sound bizarre, But a friend of mine was contacted from his local station after applying for a .22lr saying his application was incomplete . He ticked the box for a scope and they say he didnt give a sufficient reason for needing a telescopic sight . He ended up having to write a letter stating reasons for requiring a scope before they would process his application .

4gun

jellybaby21 wrote: »

First off you are getting the story how it is.Have you ever applied for a rifle licence?If so you would know there is a box to be marked to say the rifle has a scope and a another box for a silencer thats how the cops knew it had a scope.

ATB Wayne

so maybe you mate didnt tick the right boxes.... shouldnt matter for the scope, but this is where we live

jellybaby21

virminhunter wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong but surely your average bog standard guard wouldn't be checking up on licencses, calling around to houses and seizing firearms on his or her own initiative, he'd have to be ordered to do so by a sergeant or firearms officer and surely that person would be well read on the law???

Nobody said it was done on their own initiative, and when he called to the barracks, he went with an experienced gun owner who questioned the sergeant about the scope and the legislation they are basing their actions on and he couldn't give him an answer.
He also asked him about getting the scope added onto his license if there is such law and he didn't know that either.

So you tell me if that sergeant knows anything about gun laws?

jellybaby21

4gun wrote: »

so maybe you mate didnt tick the right boxes.... shouldnt matter for the scope, but this is where we live

The sergeant told him he ticked the box but he wasn't granted the license for the scope.

landkeeper

yes i have applied for a rifle license i have several :rolleyes: the point i am trying to make is if he ticked the box's for a sight and moderator and they were not granted as far as the guards were concerned he was still given his licence for the rifle how did the ptb come to know that he had those items on his rifle and why did they come knocking looking for the rig

jellybaby21 wrote: »

First off you are getting the story how it is.Have you ever applied for a rifle licence?If so you would know there is a box to be marked to say the rifle has a scope and a another box for a silencer thats how the cops knew it had a scope.

ATB Wayne

jellybaby21

landkeeper wrote: »

yes i have applied for a rifle license i have several :rolleyes: the point i am trying to make is if he ticked the box's for a sight and moderator and they were not granted as far as the guards were concerned he was still given his licence for the rifle how did the ptb come to know that he had those items on his rifle and why did they come knocking looking for the rig

You have just answered the question for me, he ticked the boxes to say his rifle had these things and thats how they knew..

We don't know why they came knocking, that's what we are trying to find out is there such law?

Cass

As Sparks said above the only reason to tick the box on the FCA1 marked sights is for NV or thermal, etc. Telescopic sights are not covered in the FCA1 or any legislation for that matter as they are classed as optics. ie- not a componant part of a firearm as the firearm will function with or without them.

There are a number of reasons a Garda can remove a firearm from someone. A few would be;

• Brandishing it in a public place in a threatening manner.
• Poaching
• Threatening someone specifically.
• Being stopped by a Garda, and found to have an item not covered on your license.

however, personally, if a Garda called to me and demanded my firearm for any reason especially one as absurb as stated in the OP he would be handed it so quickly. I would demand proof of violaton of my license conditions. Proof of which law i broke. I would call both the FRU and my solicitor on the spot.

Problem here is if i surrender the firearm, and nothing is wrong and the Gardai made a mistake, i would still have some job recovering the firearm. A friend of mine went through this a few years ago and it took him 2.5 years to recover his guns even though he was cleared of all "charges"/allegations within a week and got a written apology from the Garda that made the mistake.

Now i'm not condoning the "pry it from my cold dead hand" approach, but if you know your rights you will not be taken for a fool. The problem in Ireland being there is still a certain amount of "fear" of the Gardai. The sight of the uniform and the assumption that they would not be at my door by mistake still runs true.

landkeeper

jellybaby21 wrote: »

You have just answered the question for me, he ticked the boxes to say his rifle had these things and thats how they knew..

We don't know why they came knocking, that's what we are trying to find out is there such law?

ok look at it slightly differently he was granted a licence for a bare rifle no scope no silencer(their description)
what alerted them to the fact that he had both a scope and a silencer
when i applied for a 223 i didn't tick the silencer part but did for the sight
the licence was granted no-one came to my door to check if i had in fact got the sight
when i applied for .17 i ticked the silencer and scope boxes and got a s on the licence again no-one came to check wether or not i had them

stick shooter

jellybaby21 wrote: »

You have just answered the question for me, he ticked the boxes to say his rifle had these things and thats how they knew..

We don't know why they came knocking, that's what we are trying to find out is there such law?

If you contact sgt paul greene who is over the firearms policy unit ,
He will be able to throw some light on it for you , He is straight forward and willing to help in any way he can ,;)
Pm sent with his number .