Cops took mates rifle.

Tackleberrywho

I believe there has to be more to this story.........

jellybaby21

landkeeper wrote: »

ok look at it slightly differently he was granted a licence for a bare rifle no scope no silencer(their description)
what alerted them to the fact that he had both a scope and a silencer
when i applied for a 223 i didn't tick the silencer part but did for the sight
the licence was granted no-one came to my door to check if i had in fact got the sight
when i applied for .17 i ticked the silencer and scope boxes and got a s on the licence again no-one came to check wether or not i had them

As far as I am aware, when he was applying for the license the gards asked him if there was a scope and a silencer on the rifle and he told them there was, and they told him today that they had checked the paperwork and he was not granted the license for the silencer and the scope and that is why they came and took the gun.

ATB Wayne

landkeeper

well that makes more sense , keep us informed as to what happens he was a bit of a pillock though taking the rifle with the silencer without having a ticket for it.!especially if applied for and refused . i think on those grounds he may be lucky if he gets back on track , i heard of another lad a while ago who had his licence revoked when found in possesion of a moderator on a centrfire rifle with no s on his licence

bravestar

Scrolling through this thread I started multi-quoting things to respond to but I realized that it would entail responding to almost every post.

It's quite interesting to see how almost every post in this thread automatically sided with the OP, who's second hand information is the basis of the thread, and the usual "Feckin Gardai are a law unto themselves" started.

While one or two posters seem to have maintained an unbiased view, it appears some have used it to air their own grievances.

I'll tell you one thing Gardai are not taught to do in Templemore, jump to conclusions, and one thing we are, to investigate.

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

Edit: Only saw Jellybaby21's most recent post after posting the above, what a surprise... there was more to it than we were originally told.

It wasn't me!

bravestar wrote: »

I'll tell you one thing Gardai are not taught to do in Templemore, jump to conclusions

Followed by

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

I laughed...

stick shooter

bravestar wrote: »

Scrolling through this thread I started multi-quoting things to respond to but I realized that it would entail responding to almost every post.

It's quite interesting to see how almost every post in this thread automatically sided with the OP, who's second hand information is the basis of the thread, and the usual "Feckin Gardai are a law unto themselves" started.

While one or two posters seem to have maintained an unbiased view, it appears some have used it to air their own grievances.

I'll tell you one thing Gardai are not taught to do in Templemore, jump to conclusions, and one thing we are, to investigate.

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

I must say if noting else thats an interesting view :p

landkeeper

i doubt that is the case however a more likely scenario is that once it became apparant that there was a scope and moderator on the rifle and that in their eyes these were refused when applied for tptb decided to do it by the book probably if it were just a scope then there would have not been a problem , however a moderator is a different matter

shanmoll308

This is unbelievable :eek::mad:..By law a gard can not remove your firearm from your house or car without a letter from the sergeant stating why the firearm is to be removed.

Shanmoll308.

Cass

There is subtle difference here and another case where the law is a dick.

An RFD cannot sell a firearm without the necessaru license/paperwork. He CAN however sell a mod without the buyer needing the necessaey license paperwork. The onus is on the firearm owner to have the necessary "S" on his/her license.

When buying a rifle second hand sometimes it comes with a mod. If you are refused permission for the mod, but granted the license for the rifle you can store the mod in your safe once you do not possess, use the mod in public ( i'll have to verify that). The "S" on your license gives you permission to use the mod and have possession of one when out shooting, yet it is classed as a firearm in tself, yet you do not need a license to buy on off a dealer, but do of another private seller (not a dealer).

It would make your head spin.

bravestar wrote:

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property

No serial on most scopes plus why was the OP's friend not charged with receipt of stolen property?

and the usual "Feckin Gardai are a law unto themselves" started

Before you start making assumptions of your own perhaps you would be best advised reading bac through the years of posts/threads. Everyone on this forum is a legal and law abiding registered firearms owner. We know more about gun laws than most Gardai, and for the most part we have the upmost of respect for the job they do.

What i do no agree with nor shall i ever, is the few Gardai that either through not understanding the law or acting through a power buzz or incompetence act inappropriately themselves.

As a member of AG maybe you could answer so. Do you need an license for a scope? Irrespective of the statement of the OP this is not the first time this issue has come up. Another poster only a month or so ago went to buy a new rifle and new scope, and was refused a "License" for his scope. Why?

A few more.


Why are some people told:

• Its against the law for anyone under 18 to have a firearms license.
• You can only have 1/2/3 fireamrs. Its illegal to have more.
• A .308 bolt action rifle is restricted.

These are all topics that have been asked in the last few months. If you go back through more threads you will find more. All comments told to perspective firearm owners by AGS. All completely wrong.

jellybaby21

bravestar wrote: »

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

Edit: Only saw Jellybaby21's most recent post after posting the above, what a surprise... there was more to it than we were originally told.

What do you mean more to the story than what you were originally told?

And if the Gards said the scope was stolen I would hardly come on here and make a fool of myself :rolleyes:

Spunk84

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Hi just a question about rifle scope.My mate has just got his first rifle and bought it with scope and silencer.He applied for both on his licence.He got his licence in the post last week and got his gun.Now the cops have told him he was granted the gun licence but not for scope or silencer.Today they came and took his gun to have the scope removed.Should he have received some sort of paper work stating this?So how does he go about getting the scope added to his licence?He is not bothered about the silencer.And one more thing when he told the cop he wanted the scope back today the cop told him he would see what he could do.Where does he stand on this can they keep his scope?

ATB Wayne

Quick question how did they find out there was a scope on the rifle

bravestar

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Followed by



I laughed...

Questioning the legitimacy of if the scope is stolen or not was a beginning and is not a conclusion, a conclusion is
1.the end or close; final part.
2.the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
3.a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.

Ezridax wrote: »

No serial on most scopes plus why was the OP's friend not charged with receipt of stolen property?



Before you start making assumptions of your own perhaps you would be best advised reading bac through the years of posts/threads. Everyone on this forum is a legal and law abiding registered firearms owner. We know more about gun laws than most Gardai, and for the most part we have the upmost of respect for the job they do.

What i do no agree with nor shall i ever, is the few Gardai that either through not understanding the law or acting through a power buzz or incompetence act inappropriately themselves.

As a member of AG maybe you could answer so. Do you need an license for a scope? Irrespective of the statement of the OP this is not the first time this issue has come up. Another poster only a month or so ago went to buy a new rifle and new scope, and was refused a "License" for his scope. Why?

A few more.


Why are some people told:

• Its against the law for anyone under 18 to have a firearms license.
• You can only have 1/2/3 fireamrs. Its illegal to have more.
• A .308 bolt action rifle is restricted.

These are all topics that have been asked in the last few months. If you go back through more threads you will find more. All comments told to perspective firearm owners by AGS. All completely wrong.

I'll try answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

For a start, you did not know that the OP's friend was NOT charged with possession of stolen property. That's my point, most people ran to defend the OP's friend without knowing anything about why the firearm was taken, other than the fact that it was taken. Either way, we now have the reason clarified as to why the rifle was taken.

I am well aware most people here are law abiding registered firearms owners, I am also a law abiding registered firearms owner. I cannot excuse certain Gardai giving out bad advice regarding firearms. If they didn't know they should have said so, if someone asks me about traffic related offences i'll be the first one to say I have an awful knowledge of its various nuances, ask me about firearms/drugs/serious crime and i'll waffle the ear off you.

We all have our various areas of interest and I personally have no problems admitting when im stumped.

bravestar

jellybaby21 wrote: »

What do you mean more to the story than what you were originally told?

And if the Gards said the scope was stolen I would hardly come on here and make a fool of myself :rolleyes:

Firstly, to answer your question, If you had of said originally that your friend had no "S" on his licence, the reason for the firearms seizure would have been obvious to everyone. While you may not have known, because it was your friends licence, if there was an "S" or not, similarly you probably did not know the source of the scope unless you were with him when he bought it.

Tackleberrywho

Local Sarge asked me to give a guy a few tips for convo with CS as I was successful in my covo and knew more specifics than the sarge did about firearms, but we are biased, we are firearms enthusiasts so we have a yearning for firearm law and legislation.

There is always more to a story

eg someone reported OP's friend for USING a moderator without a licence

Horse,different,colour

Most gardaí do not craic the whip without probable cause

stick shooter

bravestar wrote: »

Questioning the legitimacy of if the scope is stolen or not was a beginning and is not a conclusion, a conclusion is
1.the end or close; final part.
2.the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
3.a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.



I'll try answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

For a start, you did not know that the OP's friend was NOT charged with possession of stolen property. That's my point, most people ran to defend the OP's friend without knowing anything about why the firearm was taken, other than the fact that it was taken. Either way, we now have the reason clarified as to why the rifle was taken.

I am well aware most people here are law abiding registered firearms owners, I am also a law abiding registered firearms owner. I cannot excuse certain Gardai giving out bad advice regarding firearms. If they didn't know they should have said so, if someone asks me about traffic related offences i'll be the first one to say I have an awful knowledge of its various nuances, ask me about firearms/drugs/serious crime and i'll waffle the ear off you.

We all have our various areas of interest and I personally have no problems admitting when im stumped.

Ok and fair points but when someone comes on here looking for help of advice i/we like to think that the story they are tell us is the full story and the truth.
We all bare in mind the story we have being told and base our best advice on them facts .We can only base our opinion on facts given .

Cass

Spunk84 wrote:

Quick question how did they find out there was a scope on the rifle

The OP's friend ticked the sights box on the FCA1 in error. He thought he was doing right, but as said above its only for NV, etc scopes.

bravestar wrote:

For a start, you did not know that the OP's friend was NOT charged with possession of stolen property. That's my point, most people ran to defend the OP's friend without knowing anything about why the firearm was taken, other than the fact that it was taken. Either way, we now have the reason clarified as to why the rifle was taken.

As with most things on Boards.ie we only have the OPs honesty to go on. I'm sure he would not be on here seeking opinions if his mate had a stolen scope or some other "skeleton" in his closet. Again this is not always the case and there have been a few threads where after questioning the OP rigourously we find out that they have infact done something to warrant the seizure/treatment they receive.

If they didn't know they should have said so, if someone asks me about traffic related offences i'll be the first one to say I have an awful knowledge of its various nuances, ask me about firearms/drugs/serious crime and i'll waffle the ear off you.

We all have our various areas of interest and I personally have no problems admitting when im stumped

Therein lies the problem. You can admit when you don't know, and if i was looking for an opinion or some friendly advise then i'd take what you or someone told me and see how it fairs out. However if we go by what some people are being told we either don't apply due to poor advice/instruction or we end up being in breach of the conditions of our licenses due to poor advice/information/instruction. The Garda that issued the poor advice can say he made a mistake, but the person involved could be charged with an offense and possibly prohibit them from owning a firearm again.

Now i know thats worse case scenario, but i'm truely surprised something like this has not happened before now with the level of threads of a similar theme as described above.

A quick example.

I was in a dealers a while ago and i know a few others have seen this, where he was handing out notes/letters from AGS. They were "mini" application forms to be completed with the FCA1 seeking permission for a scope on a rifle. I told him that there is no such law and they are not mandatory, and he shouldn't really be forcing the issue on people. He agreed, but as always he relies on a good relationship with his local Gardai to keep his business running smoothly. A month later i was back with him and the forms were gone. They had to be removed.

In relation to your statement that we immediately went into "Garda bashing mode" , well i'll both refute that and defend it as follows. If you seen the amount of posts, threads, e-mails, PMs i recieve and i'm sure there are many others that get the same, asking almost the exact same questions as the OP or something very similar it would shock you. I see alot more of this than some and not as much as others.

The Gardai i refer to above are the 5% that give the 95% a bad name. Why would they give poor advice if they don't know. I don't expect an answer its rhetorical. I was once told by a Garda that if he had his way we wouldn't have shotguns let alone "sniper rifles". This is the same person others have to go to to get the firearms licenses.

now maybe you see where some of the annoyance read above comes from.

bravestar

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

we are firearms enthusiasts so we have a yearning for firearm law and legislation.

Im with you 100% on that.

stick shooter wrote: »

Ok and fair points but when someone comes on here looking for help of advice i/we like to think that the story they are tell us is the full story and the truth.
We all bare in mind the story we have being told and base our best advice on them facts .We can only base our opinion on facts given .

Thats fair enough Stick Shooter, I guess im just somewhat more suspicious of peoples given my job. Hows about a hug?!

bravestar

Ezridax wrote: »

The OP's friend ticked the sights box on the FCA1 in error. He thought he was doing right, but as said above its only for NV, etc scopes.



As with most things on Boards.ie we only have the OPs honesty to go on. I'm sure he would not be on here seeking opinions if his mate had a stolen scope or some other "skeleton" in his closet. Again this is not always the case and there have been a few threads where after questioning the OP rigourously we find out that they have infact done something to warrant the seizure/treatment they receive.



Therein lies the problem. You can admit when you don't know, and if i was looking for an opinion or some friendly advise then i'd take what you or someone told me and see how it fairs out. However if we go by what some people are being told we either don't apply due to poor advice/instruction or we end up being in breach of the conditions of our licenses due to poor advice/information/instruction. The Garda that issued the poor advice can say he made a mistake, but the person involved could be charged with an offense and possibly prohibit them from owning a firearm again.

Now i know thats worse case scenario, but i'm truely surprised something like this has not happened before now with the level of threads of a similar theme as described above.

A quick example.

I was in a dealers a while ago and i know a few others have seen this, where he was handing out notes/letters from AGS. They were "mini" application forms to be completed with the FCA1 seeking permission for a scope on a rifle. I told him that there is no such law and they are not mandatory, and he shouldn't really be forcing the issue on people. He agreed, but as always he relies on a good relationship with his local Gardai to keep his business running smoothly. A month later i was back with him and the forms were gone. They had to be removed.

In relation to your statement that we immediately went into "Garda bashing mode" , well i'll both refute that and defend it as follows. If you seen the amount of posts, threads, e-mails, PMs i recieve and i'm sure there are many others that get the same, asking almost the exact same questions as the OP or something very similar it would shock you. I see alot more of this than some and not as much as others.

The Gardai i refer to above are the 5% that give the 95% a bad name. Why would they give poor advice if they don't know. I don't expect an answer its rhetorical. I was once told by a Garda that if he had his way we wouldn't have shotguns let alone "sniper rifles". This is the same person others have to go to to get the firearms licenses.

now maybe you see where some of the annoyance read above comes from.

I take your points on board and im sorry to hear that is going on. I can see why some people might be pissed off alright if that sort of thing is happening. I would be very much the oppostie of what that Garda told you regarding "sniper rifles".

jellybaby21

bravestar wrote: »

Firstly, to answer your question, If you had of said originally that your friend had no "S" on his licence, the reason for the firearms seizure would have been obvious to everyone. While you may not have known, because it was your friends licence, if there was an "S" or not, similarly you probably did not know the source of the scope unless you were with him when he bought it.

Ok I see where your coming from and he had no S and thats fine he has no problem with them having the silencer.And if I didnt say this earlier im sorry for that.And as far as I know they have taking the silencer before today so they only took the gun today to remove the scope and brought his gun back to him.

Sorry again if I left things out earlier or if I wasn't clear in what I was saying.

ATB Wayne

Cass

bravestar wrote: »

I can see why some people might be pissed off alright if that sort of thing is happening.

I'm a strong believer in "don't tar everyone with the same brush". It happens too often here when non shooting persons visit this forum and paint us all as gun nuts. So what i say is directed at that small percentage that are casuing problems.

I would be very much the oppostie of what that Garda told you regarding "sniper rifles".

I shoot with some Gardai both hunting and in a target capacity. I have the upmost of respect for these lads and my FO. The man is a gent and also an avid shooter so it makes all my applications easier when the person i am speaking to knows not only what i'm talking about, but can actually give an opinion on the caliber/rifle/make, etc.

I might come across as strong on this thread, and without insulting you, i make no apologies for it. However the majority of young lads just starting off take the word of any member of AGS as Gospel, and if given poor instructions will not fight/argue/dispute the point.

Anyway i am only repeating myself at this point. There are some Gardai that should not be involved in firearms/licensing due to lack of knowledge on the matter or their attitudes towards firearms and firearm ownership.No more than some firearm owners that should probably not have a firearm, however its not my call either way.

4gun

bravestar wrote: »

Scrolling through this thread I started multi-quoting things to respond to but I realized that it would entail responding to almost every post.

It's quite interesting to see how almost every post in this thread automatically sided with the OP, who's second hand information is the basis of the thread, and the usual "Feckin Gardai are a law unto themselves" started.

While one or two posters seem to have maintained an unbiased view, it appears some have used it to air their own grievances.

I'll tell you one thing Gardai are not taught to do in Templemore, jump to conclusions, and one thing we are, to investigate.

Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

Edit: Only saw Jellybaby21's most recent post after posting the above, what a surprise... there was more to it than we were originally told.

hello garda
If you new tothis forum?
you will see plenty of threads discussing topics usually realating to incidents where members of AGS has misquoted firarms policies and law.I was personally told that my .308 was to be restricted under the new licencing system until I printed off the relevant details and gave them to my local FO Now he apologised for his mistake in fairness to him, but some of these chaps can be a little too sure of them selves

virminhunter

jellybaby21 wrote: »

So you tell me if that sergeant knows anything about gun laws?

going on what you've said and what the others have said so far, yeah sounds like it, interesting thread keep us informed on how he gets on:)

Grizzly 45

Welcome to the world of hideously bad designed liscensing application forms!:(.
Would it have cost that idiot whoever drew up that abortion of a form two seconds more or abit more ink to have written beside that stupid box the words "nite vision"before the word scope??:mad:

Same as in the refusal section for the CS to fill out the "other" box for refusals.Would it have been a problem to have put the following "if other box is ticked,specify reason,[on another sheet if necessary]".

Those two glaring errors in the application form have created unmitigated problems for gunowners around the 26 counties,as shown by the above thread .Am amazed no one picked up on this in the time of the FCP or by the PTB in the shooting organisations.
I suppose it is a bit late to try and modify the form now is it??:rolleyes:
So expect to see plenty more of this sort of carry on in the future.

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

It's quite interesting to see how almost every post in this thread automatically sided with the OP, who's second hand information is the basis of the thread, and the usual "Feckin Gardai are a law unto themselves" started.

Unfortunately bravestar, that's an attitude that came about through long experience. While many Gardai are quite professional about it (I've had two FOs so far, both of whom have been perfectly fine and quite competent, even if one wasn't very knowledgeable about firearms), those who aren't are not just folk with bad advice, they're members of An Garda Siochana - and that means that they have a measure of legal authority that should convince them to not give out advice that they can't stand behind. If a fella down the pub says you can't have pistols in Ireland, that's just someone down the pub who doesn't know posterior from ginglymus and taking advice from someone in the pub is very much a caveat emptor sort of thing - but when a qualified professional in the field gives it, it's another thing entirely.

Remember, we *know* that the AGS isn't training FOs or Supers or Chief Supers properly - that's a big part of why the FPU was created. The problem isn't when they don't know the answer. Feck's sake, we've said it openly time and again, the Firearms Act is such a diabolical mess that there are maybe two dozen or fewer people in Ireland that know the Act properly; there's no face lost for being confused by something the Law Reform Commission thought was a mess already back before McDowell and Ahern made even more of a mess of it. The problem is when they don't know, but try to bluff through it - when, ironically, "I don't know, I'll have to check" would not only be more professional, but would also boost their reputation.

I'll tell you one thing Gardai are not taught to do in Templemore, jump to conclusions, and one thing we are, to investigate.
Who is to say the scope was not stolen property.

Nobody. Of course, actually saying so would be Defamation under the 2009 Act because you'd be impuning the OP's identified friend's good name in a public forum. Besides which, if they did think it was stolen, they should have confiscated it as suspected stolen goods - we have laws for that kind of thing.

bravestar

Sparks wrote: »

Unfortunately bravestar, that's an attitude that came about through long experience. While many Gardai are quite professional about it (I've had two FOs so far, both of whom have been perfectly fine and quite competent, even if one wasn't very knowledgeable about firearms), those who aren't are not just folk with bad advice, they're members of An Garda Siochana - and that means that they have a measure of legal authority that should convince them to not give out advice that they can't stand behind. If a fella down the pub says you can't have pistols in Ireland, that's just someone down the pub who doesn't know posterior from ginglymus and taking advice from someone in the pub is very much a caveat emptor sort of thing - but when a qualified professional in the field gives it, it's another thing entirely.

Remember, we *know* that the AGS isn't training FOs or Supers or Chief Supers properly - that's a big part of why the FPU was created. The problem isn't when they don't know the answer. Feck's sake, we've said it openly time and again, the Firearms Act is such a diabolical mess that there are maybe two dozen or fewer people in Ireland that know the Act properly; there's no face lost for being confused by something the Law Reform Commission thought was a mess already back before McDowell and Ahern made even more of a mess of it. The problem is when they don't know, but try to bluff through it - when, ironically, "I don't know, I'll have to check" would not only be more professional, but would also boost their reputation.


Nobody. Of course, actually saying so would be Defamation under the 2009 Act because you'd be impuning the OP's identified friend's good name in a public forum. Besides which, if they did think it was stolen, they should have confiscated it as suspected stolen goods - we have laws for that kind of thing.

Sparks, as I have already said, I will offer no excuses for anyone in a professional capacity trying to bluff someone due to their own lack of knowledge/training/giving a sh*t.

Regarding the comment about the scope, I'm well aware we have laws for that kind of thing, I implement them on quite a regular basis. It was made to point out that the OP was not directly involved in the actual incident which brought about the topic and as a result, only had second hand information, which may or may not have been the whole picture.

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

Everyone on this forum is a legal and law abiding registered firearms owner.

That's a curious assertion. How on earth do you know that?

Cass

As with all things on this forum you take people at their word. So those discussing what they shot or the target shooting they done on the weekend, i would take it that they are legal and law abiding firearm owners.

Longranger

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

That's a curious assertion. How on earth do you know that?

Because Ezridax is an experienced shooter and talks to,and gives damn good advice to all of us on a regular basis. I don't want to speak for him cos he's well fit to speak for himself,but he knows the regulars on this forum and I agree with him when he says what he says. We are law abiding people and it's just as well because if you want to shoot in Ireland you have to know the laws better than most of the judges in the country,cos every now and again,someone like yourself says what you just said. We know the law,and it's not our fault that the majority of the people in positions of power don't! As you're not a regular poster here I'm wondering if you even shoot or hunt. Correct me if I'm wrong and I will apologise immediately,but if you don't do what we do,don't tell us how to do it...methinks I smell a troll...

fodda

Longranger wrote: »

Because Ezridax is an experienced shooter and talks to,and gives damn good advice to all of us on a regular basis. I don't want to speak for him cos he's well fit to speak for himself,but he knows the regulars on this forum and I agree with him when he says what he says. We are law abiding people and it's just as well because if you want to shoot in Ireland you have to know the laws better than most of the judges in the country,cos every now and again,someone like yourself says what you just said. We know the law,and it's not our fault that the majority of the people in positions of power don't! As you're not a regular poster here I'm wondering if you even shoot or hunt. Correct me if I'm wrong and I will apologise immediately,but if you don't do what we do,don't tell us how to do it...methinks I smell a troll...

.243

Longranger wrote: »

I smell a troll...

not a troll i dont think,but as tackleberry pointed out eariler we aint getting the full facts and its second hand info as the op might not be getting the full and correct story either,