Orange Order

junder

steddyeddy wrote: »

You see Junder where your going to have difficulty there is the fact that you previously failed to condem a catholic shot by the uvf and you put before me a sectarian attack which I condemed from both sides a thousand times over. Yet when things like ths come from the unionist side you offer excuses instead of comdemnation. I have condemed people who were sectarian agaisnt protestent and catholic on this forum. Dont expect me to give you anything other than you have offered ie the shankill road thought he was in the ira.

Do what I say not as I do isnt a policy that well be met with a fair debate.

Sorry saint eddy but I have always condemned the of innocent people, regardless of what faith they follow, and if Patrick was innocent then I completely condemn it. However the problem I have is that while on one side I have the sainted steddyeddie on onside looking to score points on the other claiming one thing and on the other I have a community of which I spend alot of time in and includes people I trust claiming another and without evidence to support either claim but also knowing that in the past the pira has not claimed members if it suited thier agenda then I am in a position were i can't make any real judgement either way.

steddyeddy

junder wrote: »

Sorry saint eddy but I have always condemned the of innocent people, regardless of what faith they follow, and if Patrick was innocent then I completely condemn it. However the problem I have is that while on one side I have the sainted steddyeddie on onside looking to score points on the other claiming one thing and on the other I have a community of which I spend alot of time in and includes people I trust claiming another and without evidence to support either claim but also knowing that in the past the pira has not claimed members if it suited thier agenda then I am in a position were i can't make any real judgement either way.

What do you mean if of course he was innocent??? Just because hes catholic does not make him "maybe" guilty. Well junder 80% of the uvfs victims were catholic and inncoent they admitted to killing catholics because they were catholics, they admitted to killing catholics with no ira links to get at the ira.

How am i scoring points when I attack sectarainism on both sides.

Bottle_of_Smoke

junder wrote: »

Does anybody actully have any statistics to back up the assertion that sectarianism is prevalent in the unionist community or is this just a presumption?

There just seems more cases of serious sectarian attacks on individuals, Kevin McDaid, Michael McIlveen, Robert Hamill, Thomas Devlin etc. They're all off the top of my head.

Perhaps there is a bias in the media, but it just seems this doesn't happen the other way around as much

steddyeddy

Mr McKenna (40) was shot 11 times as he walked along the Crumlin Road in a random sectarian attack carried out by Robinson.

One of the police statements about patrick. It was a random sectarian attack. Patricks mother after hearing about her son killed because of his religion had a heart attack and died the same day.

Richard

junder wrote: »

if Patrick was innocent then I completely condemn it.

I completely condemn it regardless of "innocence" or "guilt". Its not the place of any paramilitary organisations to decide these things.

One of the reasons the troubles went on so long is the fact that ordinary people condoned attacks on supposed drug-dealers or joyriders. I'm not saying you're doing this, junder, but we have to be careful here.

junder

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There just seems more cases of serious sectarian attacks on individuals, Kevin McDaid, Michael McIlveen, Robert Hamill, Thomas Devlin etc. They're all off the top of my head.

Perhaps there is a bias in the media, but it just seems this doesn't happen the other way around as much

And I condemn those attacks with out reserve. But I can confirm it happens regularly the other way round to. My brother was attacked a couple if weeks ago. Were my band is based the very small Protestant community lives cheek by jowl with the very large catholic community with no interface, one of the band members, his girlfriend and his girlfriends mate were victims of s sectraian attack last month, along with the usual sectarian comments as the stuck the boot in they were able to name the band member by his name

steddyeddy

junder wrote: »

And I condemn those attacks with out reserve. But I can confirm it happens regularly the other way round to. My brother was attacked a couple if weeks ago. Were my band is based the very small Protestant community lives cheek by jowl with the very large catholic community with no interface, one of the band members, his girlfriend and his girlfriends mate were victims of s sectraian attack last month, along with the usual sectarian comments as the stuck the boot in they were able to name the band member by his name

And thats very wrong junder Im sorry to hear about your brother hope hes ok I know it does happen both ways the next step would be to end sectarainsim on both sides by the communities engaging in talks with each other. The oranger order ect need to talk to residents like ian pasily and gerry adams have done.

junder

steddyeddy wrote: »

And thats very wrong junder Im sorry to hear about your brother hope hes ok I know it does happen both ways the next step would be to end sectarainsim on both sides by the communities engaging in talks with each other. The oranger order ect need to talk to residents like ian pasily and gerry adams have done.

We are already engaging in talks with each other, currently I have a partnership with the youth club I run (which is for army kids) and children from a local catholic youth club ( I say catholic because it is a parish run youth centre).

steddyeddy

junder wrote: »

We are already engaging in talks with each other, currently I have a partnership with the youth club I run (which is for army kids) and children from a local catholic youth club ( I say catholic because it is a parish run youth centre).

Good stuff junder thats a nice thing to do!

Bottle_of_Smoke

junder wrote: »

And I condemn those attacks with out reserve. But I can confirm it happens regularly the other way round to. My brother was attacked a couple if weeks ago. Were my band is based the very small Protestant community lives cheek by jowl with the very large catholic community with no interface, one of the band members, his girlfriend and his girlfriends mate were victims of s sectraian attack last month, along with the usual sectarian comments as the stuck the boot in they were able to name the band member by his name

Honestly I wouldn't expect any different from you or the vast majority of ulster protestants. My experience with them has been almost unanimously positive

What I'm doing is pointing out that the perception is biased, because at the extreme end of the scale there appears to be more murderous outcomes like in the cases I mentioned above. I do not know the reason, perhaps a legacy from loyalist paras that killing a catholic was patriotic thing to do, but probably more complicated reasons there too.

Unfortunately for the overall Protestant community, who do not support sectarian assault, they get lumped in with the extremist elements, and then attacks like those on your brother and friends get overlooked.

junder

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't expect any different from you or the vast majority of ulster protestants. My experience with them has been almost unanimously positive

What I'm doing is pointing out that the perception is biased, because at the extreme end of the scale there appears to be more murderous outcomes like in the cases I mentioned above. I do not know the reason, perhaps a legacy from loyalist paras that killing a catholic was patriotic thing to do, but probably more complicated reasons there too.

Unfortunately for the overall Protestant community, who do not support sectarian assault, they get lumped in with the extremist elements, and then attacks like those on your brother and friends get overlooked.

The roman catholic church is almost always in the news over child abuse, does that mean that roman Catholics are more likely to be child abuses, in the real world of course not, however thanks to the media there is precpetion that they are, which brings to the point I made about operation eagle eye and it's specific targeting of young black males for stopband search, the kick
Back from that was that young black men did become more likely to offended simply because of the anger built up from what they saw as police racism. In youth work as well there is a theory that if you constantly label a young person Long enough and treat them accordingly eventually they will conform to that label.
Posters want 'honest' answers here is the most honest answer I can give, the loyalist / unionist community (the average everyday men and women) are sick to death with constantly being painted the villain, our community's our people are attacked on a nightly basis and ir never reaches the media atleast it doesn't until the loyalist community reacts. We try talking, we have mobile phone networks set up across interfaces we get involved in cross community projects but to no avail, we are still seen as the bad guys. And as I said treat a ypung person or a community a certain way they will start To act accordingly, I have never seen my community so angrey and it's anger coming from good honest men and women. 'Perception' can be dangerous specially if its wrong

junder

Take from to-days News Letter.

Appeal to SF for talks over interface tensions
Published on Friday 22 July 2011 08:18
A LOYALIST-SIDE mediator has appealed to the Sinn Fein lord mayor of Belfast to open dialogue over a troubled interface in the east of the city.
Johnnie Jackson said something must be done to ease tensions at loyalist Cluan Place, where residents have reported regular sectarian attacks in which missiles are thrown over a peace wall from the nationalist side.
Referring to the incidents, which have seen golf balls, snooker balls, industrial metal bolts and petrol bombs thrown over the divide, he said it is time communication channels between both sides were rebuilt.
“Tensions have been rising progressively over the last two or three years and no one seems to want to do anything about it to resolve the tensions and move forward,” he said.
“It’s got to the point now where people feel naturally that they need to have their areas defended by people who wouldn’t otherwise get involved.”
Mr Jackson said this needs to be brought to the attention of Belfast lord mayor Niall O’Donnghaile – who lives in nearby Short Strand – before the situation “spirals out of control”.
“What’s going to happen if this issue isn’t addressed is a child is going to be hit on the head by one of these missiles and killed, and someone will retaliate – be that the paramilitaries or even just a family member,” he said.
“This will escalate – guns will be used and we’ll have the return of the Troubles. This is exactly what we want to avoid.”
He said he wants to have a sit-down with Mr O’Donnghaile to consider ways to ease tensions.
“I have contacted the lord mayor and the ball is in Sinn Fein’s court,” he said.
Mr Jackson said he believes Sinn Fein is unaware of how serious the situation at the interface actually is.
“I would give them the benefit of the doubt,” he said.
“It’s not that they are turning a blind eye to the violence, they probably don’t know how bad it is.
“I would appeal to the lord mayor to come back to me and talk to me directly. We need to open dialogue and stop this from spiralling out of control.”
Mr O’Donnghaile acknowledged that there is trouble at “several interfaces” across the city, however he said the issue was an anti-social one as opposed to sectarian.
He said: “In the main, these sporadic attacks are being carried out by anti-social elements within both communities.
“There has been and is a lot of work being done within both communities and across the interface to bring the attacks to an end and this work needs to be supported and bolstered.”
Mr O’Donnghaile would not confirm, however, whether he has received an invitation from Mr Jackson to meet or whether he would take him up on the offer.
He added that residents should not “make the mistake” of comparing incidents at Cluan Place with rioting that took place at Short Strand last month in which gunshots were fired and a press photographer hit.
“It was violent and it was sustained,” he said.
“People’s lives were placed in danger and it was unacceptable.”
While not comparing the last eight months of attacks on Cluan Place to the violence at Short Strand in June, Cluan Place community worker Maggie Hutton said residents’ reports need to be taken seriously.
“If one of those metal bolts were to hit a child, we could be talking attempted murder,” she explained.
“It’s time the police and the politicians acknowledged that.”
While Mr Jackson is keen to open dialogue with the nationalist side, Ms Hutton said talks will have to be carried out by mediators because residents “are not ready” for communication.
“They have been put through too much and been ignored too long,” she said. “They don’t feel hatred towards the other side, they feel angry and let down.”

Im not sure if Mr Jackson has connections with any Protestant groups on the East Belfast interfaces, if he has I stand corrected, but if he does he makes some strange statements.
Id remind Mr Jackson that attacks on Protestants in theses interface areas have been ongoing for more than 2-3 years even predating 2002 when Cluan Place was ravaged.

Taking some points which Mr Jackson & Dingle O'Dangle said,
“This needs to be brought to the attention of Belfast Lord Mayor Niall O’Donnghaile – who lives in nearby Short Strand – before the situation “spirals out of control“.
I think Dingle O,Dangle is more than aware of what is happening within the Interface area, he’s been telling enough porkies to the media about how Short Strand is under constant attack.

Mr O’Donnghaile acknowledged that there is trouble at “several interfaces” across the city, however he said the issue was an anti-social one as opposed to sectarian.
Is it not Sectarian to want to drive Protestants out of their homes because they are Protestants. Again SF/PIRA in Denial

“I have contacted the Lord Mayor and the ball is in Sinn Fein’s court,” he said.
Mr Jackson said he believes Sinn Fein is unaware of how serious the situation at the interface actually is.
“I would give them the benefit of the doubt,” he said.
“It’s not that they are turning a blind eye to the violence, they probably don’t know how bad it is.
SF/PIRA know exactly how bad the situation is on the Interface, they had enough senior members from across Belfast in the hole during June/July.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Particularly weak response from the SF mayor. What "its anti-social not sectarian" really means is "there's a big issues here but i don't want to risk pissing off people who vote for me"

KeithAFC

Typical response from the Irish Republican mayor of Belfast. Lets just ignore the constant attacks, lets just try to keep my voters. Pathetic.

blahfckingblah

theres no such organisation as the sf/pira

junder

blahfckingblah wrote: »

theres no such organisation as the sf/pira

Wow, bet you thought long and hard about that response

steddyeddy

The sinn fein mayor had indeed a weak response if he is to be taken seriously condeming attacks or marches or whatever he has to condem this.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

Wow, bet you thought long and hard about that response

no not really, probably didnt take you long to copy and paste an article either