The punch in the face that taught me giving pupils rights is turning schools bad

doubleglaze

A very interesting article by an UK teacher about the way in which disciplinary transgressions - including physical assaults on teachers - can go unpunished there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2013718/STEPHEN-POPE-The-punch-face-taught-giving-pupils-rights-turning-schools-war-zones.html

Is the situation becoming similar in Ireland and, if so, any solutions to the problem?

roast

Never happened in my school. It was the other way around really, and its not like that was in "ye olden times", it was merely 5 years ago or so.

I doubt violence against teachers would have been so rampant 5 or so years ago in the UK too. It's the teenage culture nowadays, a lot has changed in such little time.

The main problem is the authorities - i.e. the Principals. I'm assuming that along with students, education department ministers and parents etc, they just couldn't care about any complaints the teachers would have.

helimachoptor

Time for CCTV in classrooms perhaps?

roast

helimachoptor wrote: »

Time for CCTV in classrooms perhaps?

Cue elaborate plans to disable them, or figure out the blind spot for a touch of vandalism. :pac:

who the fug

helimachoptor wrote: »

Time for CCTV in classrooms perhaps?

But then some teachers might have to work



I think the school should just make it very clear, hit a member of staff

Do not Collect Your bag
Do Not Collect Your Coat
Just go home and await an interview with the police

Rosita

who the fug wrote: »

But then some teachers might have to work

And what do you think would be wrong with that? They might welcome the opportunity to be allowed to work. You can be assured that the presence of CCTV would alter the behaviour of students far far more than that of teachers. Though logistically impossible, the monitoring of every class would make a teacher's life much much easier as student behaviour is really the only show-stopper for a productive class in my experience. Bring it on.

It might also make the specious-but-meaningless John Wayne stuff of 'don't get your coat/bag, and wait for the police' worthwhile as stonewall denial would be less effective as a tactic with cameras around.

doc_17

So any teachers out there AGAINST cctv in classrooms?

spurious

The parent (of one child) outside the door works wonders in our place.
The possibility of showing 20 odd sets of parents their darling in HD action would be great.

sparks24

hit um back you have a right to defend yourself simple as that and then throw them out to the cops.

Mr. Presentable

Rosita wrote: »

And what do you think would be wrong with that? They might welcome the opportunity to be allowed to work. You can be assured that the presence of CCTV would alter the behaviour of students far far more than that of teachers. Though logistically impossible, the monitoring of every class would make a teacher's life much much easier as student behaviour is really the only show-stopper for a productive class in my experience. Bring it on.

It might also make the specious-but-meaningless John Wayne stuff of 'don't get your coat/bag, and wait for the police' worthwhile as stonewall denial would be less effective as a tactic with cameras around.

Unfortunately it is not lawful to train CCTV cameras on children.

who the fug

Rosita wrote: »

And what do you think would be wrong with that? They might welcome the opportunity to be allowed to work. You can be assured that the presence of CCTV would alter the behaviour of students far far more than that of teachers. Though logistically impossible, the monitoring of every class would make a teacher's life much much easier as student behaviour is really the only show-stopper for a productive class in my experience. Bring it on.

It might also make the specious-but-meaningless John Wayne stuff of 'don't get your coat/bag, and wait for the police' worthwhile as stonewall denial would be less effective as a tactic with cameras around.

Do some work was flippant remark, but if you read the opening piece of the Daily Mail article you will see the teacher was not backed up by the head teacher.

Problem here is not the child or the teacher but the head teacher not enforcing the rules or backing his teachers

CCTV ain't going to solve that

folan

Remove peoples rights will stop them punching teachers?

nonsense, just enforcing the rules will.

PCPhoto

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not lawful to train CCTV cameras on children.

so put the camera at the back of the classroom and aim it at the teacher....or on the teachers desk facing the teacher.

or have a pretend projector on a table or a built in camera into a classroom projector !! (job done)

Art Teacher

who the fug wrote: »

Problem here is not the child or the teacher but the head teacher not enforcing the rules or backing his teachers

This is so true in many schools.

spurious wrote: »

The possibility of showing 20 odd sets of parents their darling in HD action would be great.

I would love to see this in action. Parents TV - It would solve a lot of problems for teachers. Also would help the Minister in his mission to improve literacy and numeracy.

Rosita

who the fug wrote: »

Do some work was flippant remark, but if you read the opening piece of the Daily Mail article you will see the teacher was not backed up by the head teacher.

Problem here is not the child or the teacher but the head teacher not enforcing the rules or backing his teachers

CCTV ain't going to solve that

The root problem is child behaviour. With good kids who behave well it doesn't matter whether the Principal 'backs' his teachers or not. There is far too much of this sttitude about which claims poor behaviour is the responsibility of somebody other than the perpetrator.

Rosita

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not lawful to train CCTV cameras on children.

Not sure anyone is talking about 'training' cameras on anyone. There are CCTV cameras all around many schools with no apparent legal repercussions. Not sure why placing them in a classroom would be an issue.

who the fug

Rosita wrote: »

The root problem is child behaviour. With good kids who behave well it doesn't matter whether the Principal 'backs' his teachers or not. There is far too much of this sttitude about which claims poor behaviour is the responsibility of somebody other than the perpetrator.

If the head does not back his/her teacher then when is the perpetrator every going to take responsibility for his or her actions.

Art Teacher

Thats a good point fug, but often whats happens is that the little darling goes home to the parents with an accusation about their teacher. A counter claim as it were.

With a camera in the class, the principal can simply show the parents in HD what their little darling has done to their teacher who endeavoured to teach class.

Quandary

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure anyone is talking about 'training' cameras on anyone. There are CCTV cameras all around many schools with no apparent legal repercussions. Not sure why placing them in a classroom would be an issue.

Im just finishing the Hdip in primary education at the moment so I mightn't have the same insight as an experienced teacher but I would love to see CCTV in every class in the country.

Because i'm a male I have to be even more careful than female teachers when it comes to being alone in a classroom with a pupil, be it for detention or a one on one chat or otherwise. In all 3 of my teaching practice blocks we were warned that in the situation whereby you find yourself in the classroom alone with pupil, make sure to leave the classroom door ajar and also make sure that both the pupil and teacher are visible from the hall.

CCTV would provide protection for pupils and teachers alike, and I can't see why anyone would want to object to this really.

Rosita

who the fug wrote: »

If the head does not back his/her teacher then when is the perpetrator every going to take responsibility for his or her actions.

When their actions are on CCTV and they cannot deny, fudge, distort, blame everybody else, and the parent cannot blame the teacher.

doc_17

sparks24 wrote: »

hit um back you have a right to defend yourself simple as that and then throw them out to the cops.

Naive.

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not lawful to train CCTV cameras on children.

Don't think this is correct. Our school has CCTV in the halls, out the back (smokers beware) and looking out the front of the building. Those cameras are there for security and they monitor what goes on in the school and have been used numerous times to identify culprits.

2seats

We have cameras in all of our classrooms in school and i find them great for proving who stole his pen or book and so on. However parents are not allowed to see the footage because there are other pupils in the room.

dambarude

I've recently heard of a case where a girl in second class had to be put in solitary confinement for similar behaviour. The girl had no identified special need (e.g. Aspergers).

It does untold damage to a teacher's authority - what are other pupils to think when another child can get away with kicking/punching the teacher, while they get told off for forgetting their homework?

As with most things it won't come to a head until something more extreme happens.

flatbackfour

Rosita wrote: »

When their actions are on CCTV and they cannot deny, fudge, distort, blame everybody else, and the parent cannot blame the teacher.

Yes they can and they would.

implausible

doubleglaze wrote: »

A very interesting article by an UK teacher about the way in which disciplinary transgressions - including physical assaults on teachers - can go unpunished there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2013718/STEPHEN-POPE-The-punch-face-taught-giving-pupils-rights-turning-schools-war-zones.html

Is the situation becoming similar in Ireland and, if so, any solutions to the problem?

Normally, I would dismiss out of hand a lot of stuff published in The Daily Mail.......but......

Physical assaults do happen on teachers - anything from having stuff thrown at them to what was described in that article. Is it an everyday occurrence? No, but it is certainly becoming more common.

The causes I think can be boiled down to three things - non-parenting, classroom management breakdown and lack of management support. The kid thinks it's acceptable, it's not nipped in the bud and an atmosphere in the school that tolerates this type of behaviour.

Make no mistake - this problem begins at home. A friend of mine was deliberately hit in the face with a lunch-box by a Junior Infant on his first day at school. Parents are tolerating their children's outbursts (verbal or physical) and sending them into schools with the attitude that the teacher can deal with it (i.e. raise their child). If there is a problem, the same parent who couldn't wait to get shut of the child, marches in to the school ranting about their rights. The responsibility is put squarely on the teacher's shoulders. We are not trained child psychologists, social workers, nurses, occupational therapists or bouncers, but we are expected to be, by parents who should, but aren't, expected to be....well...parents.

The problem can then be exacerbated by classroom situations that are allowed to escalate by a teacher who tolerates disrespect, bad language and 'messing' because there is no support for the teacher whose complaint is "Johnny told Michael to f*ck off in class today". Often, management only wants to deal with the big issues, which often end up being put down to...you guessed it - the teacher's lack of control.

The solution - it has to start at the bottom. From Junior Infants, parents should be brought in and told what exactly is expected of them, not necessarily their child, but them. By the time Johnny starts school, he should be able to sit in a seat when told, not shout and understand the word 'no'. Forget about reading and writing - that can be taught in a calm atmosphere. Parenting classes can be offered to those whose kids haven't reached that milestone. Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy towards bad behaviour and parents should be told exactly what bad behaviour is (if I had a euro for every time a parent told me "sure that's the way he speaks at home"). There should be immediate consequences and parents who storm into schools should not be dealt with until an appropriate time until they have calmed down. (Spurious, I will be mentioning your school's policy when I go back)

A lot of the time, parents need educating before you can educate the child. I think it's high time that parents, as partners in education, were taught the rules, respect and responsibilities that lead to a calm atmosphere which is necessary for a good education.

whydoibother?

I think CCTV in classrooms would be a good thing. Someone said it would be logistically impossible to monitor every class but would they need monitoring by an actual person? I'd say just let the cameras roll, and only refer to the footage when necessary, if there is an accusation/incident.

I think it would definitely improve everyday discipline. It would help when talking to a parent who didn't believe their child could ever do wrong. They could be shown it. It would also help the school in suspending/expelling students. I think the problem with discipline in schools is that the really harsh punishments, suspension and expulsion, are often not used when appropriate due to fear of legal action. If there was video evidence, the school would have less to fear. An increase in suspending/expelling people would in turn act as a deterrent to others.

Rosita

flatbackfour wrote: »

Yes they can and they would.

So, for example, a student can deny assaulting and teacher or chucking something at another student even if they are watching damning CCTV footage in the company of the Principal, the teacher involved and their parents. How does that work?

At what stage is evidence considered irrefutable? When we get a confession written in blood?

Rosita

whydoibother? wrote: »

I think CCTV in classrooms would be a good thing. Someone said it would be logistically impossible to monitor every class but would they need monitoring by an actual person? I'd say just let the cameras roll, and only refer to the footage when necessary, if there is an accusation/incident.

I think it would definitely improve everyday discipline. It would help when talking to a parent who didn't believe their child could ever do wrong. They could be shown it. It would also help the school in suspending/expelling students. I think the problem with discipline in schools is that the really harsh punishments, suspension and expulsion, are often not used when appropriate due to fear of legal action. If there was video evidence, the school would have less to fear. An increase in suspending/expelling people would in turn act as a deterrent to others.

Very good point. It is far too difficult to expel a student especially if their behaviour is directed at a teacher. Only a very direct threat of expulsion or perhaps longer term suspension would make any real difference in my experience. A day's suspension for some of these guys just gives them a day off. I've seen my school do 'internal' suspensions - where the student does not get a day at home but is kept out of class - but that just creates work for the school monitoring them.

michael999999

Only problem is that any pupil that would assault a teacher, would have no problem ripping a camera off the wall weeks before it recorded him or her doing anything!

efb

I new this was the daily fail before i clicked into the thread

blogga

CCTV is very expensive for good quality. A 20 camera installation could go to 30 grand. Field of vision is limited and the further from the camera the incident is the more useless they are.
Teacher Unions will not have them.
Assaults on teachers are expulsion offences unless the teacher has compromised the event by unprofessional conduct. Ireland should learn from British experience and simplify expulsion.

michael999999

blogga wrote: »

CCTV is very expensive for good quality. A 20 camera installation could go to 30 grand. Field of vision is limited and the further from the camera the incident is the more useless they are.
Teacher Unions will not have them.
Assaults on teachers are expulsion offences unless the teacher has compromised the event by unprofessional conduct. Ireland should learn from British experience and simplify expulsion.

The goverment will never pay that for something that is only operating 7-8 months of the year!

2seats

All teachers in our school think the cameras in classrooms have had a huge impact on student behaviour and no one has ever complained about them but they can be shown to parents because of the other pupils present.

Rosita

michael999999 wrote: »

The goverment will never pay that for something that is only operating 7-8 months of the year!

It might not pay for them but it would have to vacate its ample glasshoue before throwing any stones of the kind you suggest. After all it pays for cameras in the Dáil chamber and that is operating less than 100 days in the year.

doc_17

Rosita wrote: »

michael999999 wrote: »

The goverment will never pay that for something that is only operating 7-8 months of the year!

It might not pay for them but it would have to vacate its ample glasshoue before throwing any stones of the kind you suggest. After all it pays for cameras in the Dáil chamber and that is operating less than 100 days in the year.

And they pay for microphones in the Dail as well.....little did the 3 little know of that!

Rosita

michael999999 wrote: »

Only problem is that any pupil that would assault a teacher, would have no problem ripping a camera off the wall weeks before it recorded him or her doing anything!

Presumably those installing cameras would have thought of his possibility and allowed for it when legislating for the robustness and protection of the equipment? Anyway it's possible to come up with a myriad of 'what abouts?' but I think the principle is a very sound one.

Fuinseog

blogga wrote: »

CCTV is very expensive for good quality. A 20 camera installation could go to 30 grand. Field of vision is limited and the further from the camera the incident is the more useless they are.
Teacher Unions will not have them.
Assaults on teachers are expulsion offences unless the teacher has compromised the event by unprofessional conduct. Ireland should learn from British experience and simplify expulsion.

in a lot of schools a pupil would not be be expelled for assaulting a member of staff. they may be suspended for a day though.

Flashgordon197

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not lawful to train CCTV cameras on children.

Thats not true. Schools have them in hallways already and what about on the streets??