Electric Ireland Metre Reader tried to shock my dog!!

Bally8

Im fuming as I write this. I just cant believe what just nearly happened. I was in my kitchen when I heard my dog bark. Coming up along my driveway was a complete stranger so I went out to ask what he wanted. The dog was still barking a bit and the man said you're lucky I was about to shock him!! He was holding this gray device in his hand along with the black metre reader thing. I said 'No way, you cant. He is a puppy in his own garden.' I can believe it, do they have the right to come on to my property and shock my dog for barking?? He is an 11 month old seriously friendly dog. All the man needed to do was say hello to him and he would have gone over to say hello back. Indeed while I was talking to the metre reader guy thats exactly what he did- came over to him for a rub.

Do these guys not get any training on how to handle barking dogs? Im sure they should be at least told that giving a dog a shock will only result in an angry dog in the future. I really hope this is not esb company policy.

Outkast_IRE

Contact Electric Ireland immediately and see what they have to say about the situation. i would advise asking to speak to a manager and insist on a response.

jack presley

Bally8 wrote: »

Im fuming as I write this. I just cant believe what just nearly happened. I was in my kitchen when I heard my dog bark. Coming up along my driveway was a complete stranger so I went out to ask what he wanted. The dog was still barking a bit and the man said you're lucky I was about to shock him!! He was holding this gray device in his hand along with the black metre reader thing. I said 'No way, you cant. He is a puppy in his own garden.' I can believe it, do they have the right to come on to my property and shock my dog for barking?? He is an 11 month old seriously friendly dog. All the man needed to do was say hello to him and he would have gone over to say hello back. Indeed while I was talking to the metre reader guy thats exactly what he did- came over to him for a rub.

Do these guys not get any training on how to handle barking dogs? Im sure they should be at least told that giving a dog a shock will only result in an angry dog in the future. I really hope this is not esb company policy.

Shock was probably the wrong word. I'd say he meant

http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

Justask

Meter reader has no right at all to touch your dog unless he was in fear of his safety.

I dont blame you from been mad i'd bloody lose the plot.

I'd call ESB and tell them exactly what I thought :mad::mad:

i know of someone who use to do door to door visits during the elections and they were given a device that let off a load noise to startle a dog if one came at them.

Redshift

It was probably one of these

http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

Used by postmen and meter readers the world over, harmless to the dog.

Justask

Redshift wrote: »

It was probably one of these

http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

Used by postmen and meter readers the world over, harmless to the dog.

Yup thats what I meant but didnt know the name...

They work on teenagers to :D:D

Bally8

Thanks for the responses. It probably was that dazer thing but how can you say its harmless? The site quoted says it causes discomfort- how can they measure my dogs discomfort? Any what gives that man the right to cause any kind of pain to my puppy? There was no threat to his safety. If he was afraid he should have stayed away surely?

I think the bes thing is if I can get the esb to stay off my property at all times and read my own metre. As far as Im concerned it would have been an unprovoked assault on the dog who is also harmless

Justask

If it is the Dazer thing it is just a very high pitched noise. If you have a teenager local ask them what it sounds like. They put these kinda things out side shops etc to stop kids hanging around.

I thought by your thread it was a big electric prod thing

jack presley

Bally8 wrote: »

There was no threat to his safety.

What you've got to remember is that not everyone likes dogs and there are quite a few people who are actually afraid of them, even little puppies. My two little terriers are quite possibly the friendliest things in the world and when I'm out walking them they often try to go to people we pass and look for rubs. Most oblige but there are some, and some could be big strong looking men, who look petrified when they head towards them so I have to yank them back on the leads.

The ESB guy might dread meeting dogs on his rounds. He could have been bitten by a dog when he was young etc. We don't know. And he has a job to do so it's not as simple as saying he should just stay away. There aren't too many jobs out there either so it's not like he can be choosy on what job he does.

As for not allowing them onto your property to read the meter again, it's probably in the really small print in your contract with them that they are allowed to do so. i don't know.

Bally8

Justask wrote: »

If it is the Dazer thing it is just a very high pitched noise. If you have a teenager local ask them what it sounds like. They put these kinda things out side shops etc to stop kids hanging around.

I thought by your thread it was a big electric prod thing

To be honest I have no idea what he was carrying. I dont know anything about dazers other than the link provided above, and I've never seen any handheld shocking device before.

As you can imagine when I was told that the dog was going to get shocked and he holds out a thing I have never seen before I got some shock myself.

Im hoping it is this harmless device they carry around. It still isnt good practice though as the next guy with a green van coming to our house is going to be seen as a threat by our puppy surely?

Justask

Im sure you did get a fright but i really dont think they will harm your dog. They are just to startle them.

Bally8

Thanks guys I think I've calmed down after the inital shock. Im going to ring the esb tomorrow and see what they say.

Discodog

So what happens when someone uses one of these devices & a nervous dog reacts by biting them ? I would simply keep my gate locked & put a cordless door bell within reach. This way no one can enter your property without your knowledge.

If someone used any device, ultrasonic or otherwise, on my dogs whilst standing on my property I would call the Guards.

OP please insist on an answer & post it here so that we can all contact them if necessary.

jack presley

Discodog wrote: »

If someone used any device, ultrasonic or otherwise, on my dogs whilst standing on my property I would call the Guards.

.

This device is about the size of a mobile phone so the guy in theory could press the button while it is in his pocket and you'll be none the wiser

Discodog

jack presley wrote: »

This device is about the size of a mobile phone so the guy in theory could press the button while it is in his pocket and you'll be none the wiser

Exactly & that is why we need to know if these people carry such devices. There is a world of difference in carrying something to protect them on the street & using it whilst on private property especially without the householders knowledge & consent.

The simple answer is lock your gate - prevents someone leaving the gate open & letting your dog out.

Unfortunately Irish law gives considerable powers to the ESB.

Justask

Discodog wrote: »

Exactly & that is why we need to know if these people carry such devices. There is a world of difference in carrying something to protect them on the street & using it whilst on private property especially without the householders knowledge & consent.

The simple answer is lock your gate - prevents someone leaving the gate open & letting your dog out.

Unfortunately Irish law gives considerable powers to the ESB.

These people have a job to do..they dont carry it to look good.

They will only use then in a case where they are in fear.

Some people have enter your property

Bullseye1

As with Postmen ESB employees doing their job have every right to protect themselves whilst doing their job. If I hear my dog barking outside i would immediately make sure that they return to me to prevent 1) the dog getting into a situation where she might get into trouble by snapping or biting someone and 2) to protect the third party who maybe carrying out their duties to deliver my post or read my ESB or Gas meter.

TooManyDogs

I'd be furious I have to say, if anyone chooses to come on my property and then tries to harm my dog I'd go up in smoke

Justask

TooManyDogs wrote: »

I'd be furious I have to say, if anyone chooses to come on my property and then tries to harm my dog I'd go up in smoke

These things dont harm dogs..

Im the last person that would be ok with anything what so ever that would hurt a dog.

jack presley

Discodog wrote: »

Unfortunately Irish law gives considerable powers to the ESB.

Not only that, but these days health and safety legislation and the compensation culture has resulted in companies taking measures that some would consider over the top to reduce hazards and risks to ensure they aren't liable for injuries to their staff.

Let's say for example an ESB worker is bitten by a dog and has to miss a few days at work. That has to be reported to the HSA who will carry out an investigation. A question they will ask is "did he have a dog dazer". ESB say no, then the HSA will say they didn't take all the available precautions to ensure the person's safety. While the dazer won't eliminate the risk of a dog bite completely, it shows they looked at the risk and did all they could that was reasonable to help reduce it. That's why companies have to give out hi-viz jackets etc.

(sorry, I was on a health and safety course in work last week!!).

Discodog

I think that Irish law is more authoritarian. In the UK no one has a right to enter your property without your permission or a warrant/court order.

In theory an ESB man could walk in unannounced, startle your dog with his "device" & then get your dog put down for being aggressive.

I would always want to be certain that either someone cannot call because the gate is locked or that the dogs are secure in the back of the house allowing caller access to the front.

Bullseye1

Unless people are prepared to have mail boxes, gas meter and ESB meters a their entrance gates then third parties will be entering their land and legally so. We have a duty of care towards these people. And rightly so.

jack presley

Discodog wrote: »

I think that Irish law is more authoritarian. In the UK no one has a right to enter your property without your permission or a warrant/court order.

Isn't Irish law derived from British law? I though they had the same invitee, licensee and trespasser premise that we have here?

Discodog

I have a duty of care to my dogs so I have to keep them away from people that might harm them

A postbox on the gate is easy. Meters do not have to be read - you can submit your own readings.

Whispered

What sort of training are they given with these devices? A dog who is showing aggression because he's nervous would surely be more likely to attack if frightened or made uncomfortable. What about a dog who is not showing any sort of threat besides approaching for a sniff. Are they shown when best not to use these devices?

I'm all for people keeping control of their dogs, but to me having them secured on your property is all that should be expected. If the ESB wants to read a meter surely it's only polite to send out say a batch of letters

"meter readings in your area all day Thursday 14 July"

It's not an issue for us as we have an open front garden anyway, but I would be livid if it happened. And no duty of care to the ESB, Gas company or door to door salesman would justify putting my dogs in an uncomfortable situation while secured on my property.

Bullseye1

Discodog wrote: »

I have a duty of care to my dogs so I have to keep them away from people that might harm them

A postbox on the gate is easy. Meters do not have to be read - you can submit your own readings.

I'm sure you can submit readings over the phone but I'm also sure the supplier has rights to check that the readings are correct at least once a year so that people are not running up large bills.

In saying that it's surprising that this cannot be done electronically by connecting the meter to a telephone line.

Bullseye1

If your dog is secured within your property then there wouldn't be a chance of it bitting the person doing their duty. Simples.

Whispered wrote: »

What sort of training are they given with these devices? A dog who is showing aggression because he's nervous would surely be more likely to attack if frightened or made uncomfortable. What about a dog who is not showing any sort of threat besides approaching for a sniff. Are they shown when best not to use these devices?

I'm all for people keeping control of their dogs, but to me having them secured on your property is all that should be expected. If the ESB wants to read a meter surely it's only polite to send out say a batch of letters

"meter readings in your area all day Thursday 14 July"

It's not an issue for us as we have an open front garden anyway, but I would be livid if it happened. And no duty of care to the ESB, Gas company or door to door salesman would justify putting my dogs in an uncomfortable situation while secured on my property.

TooManyDogs

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If your dog is secured within your property then there wouldn't be a chance of it bitting the person doing their duty. Simples.

But that's the whole point, if your dog is secured behind a gate and the ESB man opens the gate and comes in to get a meter reading...... not simples anymore

Magill

He should just carry a stick, thats what i do when im walking my dogs.. incase a stray or some ejit has his untrained dog off the lead. Smack them on the arse and they run like mad.

jack presley

Magill wrote: »

He should just carry a stick, thats what i do when im walking my dogs.. incase a stray or some ejit has his untrained dog off the lead. Smack them on the arse and they run like mad.

If they are getting flack here for using dog dazers, imagine the posts that would be on this board if they hit a dog with a stick! Joe Duffy's phone would be red hot

Whispered

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If your dog is secured within your property then there wouldn't be a chance of it bitting the person doing their duty. Simples.

How would there be no chance? If someone comes into my garden that my dog is closed into of course there is a chance they could come into contact with the dog.

jack presley wrote: »

If they are getting flack here for using dog dazers, imagine the posts that would be on this board if they hit a dog with a stick! Joe Duffy's phone would be red hot

What has Joe Duffy got to do with anything? If someone came onto my property and hit my dog with a stick it's not Joe Duffy I'd be onto but the guards. There is a huge difference between protecting your dog with a stick while out walking - which is what I think Magill was talking about - and someone coming onto your property uninvited. So really that comment is completely irrelevant in this instance.

I think the issue people have really is with the fact this is happening on your own property. If my dog for instance, got a kick from another dog owner because he was annoying their dog, or if he ran up to someone in public who used one of those devices because they were afraid of him, well it's my own fault, I should have been keeping a closer eye on him. But your dog should be safe when on your property.

mattjack

Bally8 wrote: »

Im fuming as I write this. I just cant believe what just nearly happened. I was in my kitchen when I heard my dog bark. Coming up along my driveway was a complete stranger so I went out to ask what he wanted. The dog was still barking a bit and the man said you're lucky I was about to shock him!! He was holding this gray device in his hand along with the black metre reader thing. I said 'No way, you cant. He is a puppy in his own garden.' I can believe it, do they have the right to come on to my property and shock my dog for barking?? He is an 11 month old seriously friendly dog. All the man needed to do was say hello to him and he would have gone over to say hello back. Indeed while I was talking to the metre reader guy thats exactly what he did- came over to him for a rub.

Do these guys not get any training on how to handle barking dogs? Im sure they should be at least told that giving a dog a shock will only result in an angry dog in the future. I really hope this is not esb company policy.

hows is your post delivered...does your postman have to walk to your door..?

Discodog

jack presley wrote: »

Isn't Irish law derived from British law? I though they had the same invitee, licensee and trespasser premise that we have here?

It isn't regarding the ESB. They have extensive powers here to enter & disconnect without a warrant.

The part of this discussion that drives me nuts is, yet again, the dogs are getting punished. There is this weird belief that dogs are human & know right from wrong. So a postman should never hurt a dog but instead refuse to deliver post to that address. A stray dog can be "zapped" & it's owner left unpunished. It really is like the middle ages when an animal could be forced to appear in Court to answer charges.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

It isn't regarding the ESB. They have extensive powers here to enter & disconnect without a warrant.

The part of this discussion that drives me nuts is, yet again, the dogs are getting punished. There is this weird belief that dogs are human & know right from wrong. So a postman should never hurt a dog but instead refuse to deliver post to that address. A stray dog can be "zapped" & it's owner left unpunished. It really is like the middle ages when an animal could be forced to appear in Court to answer charges.

I honestly thought that postmen do refuse to deliver. Common sense I thought. Also it's only good manners to have a post box if you have a dog on your property. Safer for the dog too as people have no reason to go opening gates.

What does the ESB do if they want to check a meter on a house with large locked gates? Do they send out a letter or just leave it. Like how far can a meter reader go to get a reading -scaling walls?

EGAR

I had trouble with an ESB metre reader after I moved house. The guy at the last house was cool, no problem. The guy at the new house however would come into my house! He would knock and seconds later open the door. Never mind the fact that I have a sign at the gate and the gate was closed. He did this twice even though I asked him politely after the first time NOT to open the door.

The second time he nearly got bitten, it was only thanks to the quick reaction of my son that he escaped being mauled by a Bassett Hound .

I rang the ESB to complain about him and after half an hour punching frigging numbers I finally got to speak to a human. From now on I ring in the reading myself. Simples.

Tayla

I've lived in my own house for 5 years and in all the years that i've been getting ESB bills i've never had any literature at all from them informing us on their 'right' to do that.

If I had ever seen one of the workers doing that to my dog (bearing in mind I had never heard of that before) then I would probably punch them (out of shock)

Acoshla

Actually here might be a good place to ask this. My dog would often be put out in the garden in the morning for an hour to do her business/roll in the grass a while. I work at home so a lot of the time I leave her out there if she's enjoying herself.

The postman calls, opens gate, walks up and puts post in the letter box. Like any good guard dog my dog will stand at the corner of the house and bark a couple of times, to let me know someone is on the property. She never leaves the corner of the house unless she is summoned to the front door by us/the person calling (our friends would call her over and she'll come then). The same postman has been delivering to us since we got her as a puppy, and in the last two weeks he has told us to keep her in the house twice because "she was going to go for him". She was not, she was about 6 feet away from him standing still barking, not in a frenzied angry way, just to alert us.

I find him incredibly rude anyway, if he has to ring the doorbell he does it about 6 times in rapid succession, every single time, I hear it the first time!! Is there anything I can do or do I just have to keep the dog in the house everyday until he's been and went?

Discodog

I would definitely keep the dog in or put a mailbox on the gate. If she did bite, or in the opinion of the postman tried to bite, you & her could be in serious grief. He could go to the dog warden & get the dog seized as dangerous.

doctor evil

Acoshla, is your front and back garden separated?

I think in a lot of cases this could be part of the problem where the two gardens are connected by bits at the side. Much better for security to have it securely separated.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

I think that Irish law is more authoritarian. In the UK no one has a right to enter your property without your permission or a warrant/court order.

Not so, if you have any kind of public right fo way through your land (doesn't have to be a fields, can even be through your garden) you are screwed. People are meant to stick right to the path but often don't. It can be expensive and difficult to get them moved and helluva of a battle to get rid of. I'm thankful we don't have hardcore ramblers in Ireland.

This thread deals with the person coming up the driveway.

Acoshla

doctor evil wrote: »

Acoshla, is your front and back garden separated?

I think in a lot of cases this could be part of the problem where the two gardens are connected by bits at the side. Much better for security to have it securely separated.

The garden goes all around the house basically, not really possible to separate them, but at the same time I don't see why we should have to change our own property for something like this, she is secure in our garden the way it is, he's the one making an issue out of it. I would love to put a postbox outside the gate but we get a lot of things delivered that need to be signed for/too big for letterbox and God knows if he can't deliver it on the spot it's tough work to get it back again from Post Office.

Whispered

In that case I'd consider putting a wireless bell onto your gate. Safer for the dog in the long run.

An intercom system is not very expensive, and would allow you to answer and tell him you'll be with him in a moment. I don't think I'd have a large garden without one.

mkegvn

Unfortunately, ESB/ Electric Ireland have every right to enter your property, (within reason) so that they can access theirs, the electricity meter. The certainly are not however, allowed to cause harm to your property or your animals unless the animal in question poses a threat.

I'm sure your puppy was no threat whatsoever! I'd have shocked him with it if he layed a finger on my dog.

Manach

Personally I'm on the dog's side. However, legally I recall callers to your door have a bare liecense to be on your premise and you'd be under a duty not to delibrately harm them, even if they were trespassers. But, the practical side of the argument is that given the times we live in, dogs are an essential security feature, and interfering with them in such a fashion lessons their long term effectiveness.

JustAThought

I suggest you write and complain
Ask about the specific person who was involved and the specific device, and whether the company knows about this & what their policy is on it
Then decide whether to move your business elsewhere or do your own meter reading. write to advise them that unless they desist from threatening to carry and to use unknown devices on your valuable property that they are not permitted to enter due to the real threat they pose to you and your property.

JustAThought

I suggest you write and complain
Ask about the specific person who was involved and the specific device, and whether the company knows about this & what their policy is on it
Then decide whether to move your business elsewhere or do your own meter reading. write to advise them that unless they desist from threatening to carry and to use unknown devices on your valuable property that they are not permitted to enter due to the real concerns & the threat they pose to you and your property.

Oranage2

Yet another moronic thread in this forum -

Fisrtly he said "he was about to" - which means he didnt -

Also would you expect the ESB lad just to let himself get attacked by dogs when he's just doing his job? your dog might be friendly but there are a lot that arent.

Discodog

Oranage2 wrote: »

Yet another moronic thread in this forum

Yet another useful contribution to this thread :rolleyes:

Oranage2 wrote: »

Fisrtly he said "he was about to" - which means he didnt -

Also would you expect the ESB lad just to let himself get attacked by dogs when he's just doing his job? your dog might be friendly but there are a lot that arent.

Saying that you are or were about to do something unpleasant can constitute a threat. If the ESB lad feels threatened by any dog he should refuse to enter the property. Once the householder has had a few overestimated bills they will soon allow the meter reader in.

The ESB man can't be expected to be an expert on dog behaviour & shouldn't be put in the situation where he has to take a chance. But neither can he start using ultrasound !.

Ian Beale

JustAThought wrote: »

I suggest you write and complain
Ask about the specific person who was involved and the specific device, and whether the company knows about this & what their policy is on it
Then decide whether to move your business elsewhere or do your own meter reading. write to advise them that unless they desist from threatening to carry and to use unknown devices on your valuable property that they are not permitted to enter due to the real concerns & the threat they pose to you and your property.

The ESB read all meters regardless of who you get your electricity from. Unless you get your electricity cut off someone from the ESB will have to check your meter occasionally even if you phone in your own readings to check that someone isn't submitting low readings. Those ultrasonic devices aren't harmful either, it's just like the plugin rodent repellents, it's just an annoying noise.

jack presley

JustAThought wrote: »

I suggest you write and complain
Ask about the specific person who was involved and the specific device, and whether the company knows about this & what their policy is on it
Then decide whether to move your business elsewhere or do your own meter reading. write to advise them that unless they desist from threatening to carry and to use unknown devices on your valuable property that they are not permitted to enter due to the real threat they pose to you and your property.

As someone else said, these dazers are standard issue to postmen, meter readers etc so of course the company knows about them.

As for the 'real threat they pose to you and your property', I think that's a bit ott

Bally8

I have sent them an email of complaint. Will wait to hear what they have to say.

Im not going to argue with anyone on here. Until yesterday I didnt know those dazers existed and when he told me he was going to shock the dog except for that I came running out of the house I believed him. I cant say how harmless or not it was but I can say I felt threatened by him.

Sorry if anyone feels Im moronic