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Spartacus: Vengeance [Starz - US] *Spoilers!*
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it would be better if they keep her alive that way she can guide us around rome, and itll be a best way to introduce all the new caracters that are to be expected next season,
Would that not just be rehashing lucretia's storyline thoAnother episode made up of 75% shíte. Although I'm delighted to see Mira dead it was so pathetically done for a character who was so involved upto that point.
I think your being a tad harsh here both in your ****e ratio and your somewhat irrational hatred of Mira , like you I found the Mira warrior princess routine a tad ott I could have accepted her archery skills but for a house body slave her hand to hand skills put some of the other gladiators to shame. That said I gotta give alot of credit to the writers for not going the obvious route with her and spartacus and having her become this shows Varinia(kirk douglas's spartacus love interest) by having him fall for her , something I feel would have undermined his whole mission statement at this point in the story . I loved that she wanted more then he had to give.Yeah we get it Liam can do a mean motivational speech theres no need to have one every ten seconds. " I am going to collect wood, smoke will rise !! fires will burn !! let the cold come for it will not harm us !!!!" "HUZZA!! HUZZAH!!" Maybe if he spent more time training than talking he wouldnt look so out of his depth when the shít kicks off. Although I will give him some credit for the end fight when he went after Glaber, it was ok.
In fairness being that this was the finale and they were in quite the pickle the motivational speech was highly appropriate, we just don't need one in every ep like we seem to have had this season.The death of the almighty Ashur was unforgivable. He carried many a dud episode, added an unbelievable amount to the show, screwed over Crixus, Oenamaeus, Spartacus and everyone else and in the end he's cut down by a pissed off woman. Ridiculously poor ending considering the possibilities for showdowns. I was expecting Crixus to step forward with a "not so fast you little cnut!!" and hack him to bits. Boy was I surprised when little miss misery hole stepped up. :rolleyes:
Naevia carrying on where Mira left off, cant act worth a damn certainly not in the role she's trying to play, strong woman doesnt want any man fighting her battles for her etc etc etc. Well done but your not moving a washing machine its a war in ancient Rome and no slave girl is gonna stand 2 seconds against a Gladiator or Roman soldier in open combat. One parry and her arm is fcuked. One punch connects she's knocked the fcuk out. Shameful end to Ashur, shameful :mad:
In fairness as much as I/we love Ashur he had to go, there are only so many Romans he can ingratiate himself into service to , with Glaber gone and the Rebellion possibly moving beyond Capua's environs next season we were never realistically gonna see the rise of the house of Ashur as interesting an idea as that sounded, he simply had to go and in fairness it made narrative sense to have the person most wronged by him have the final word ie. Naevia.
Still puzzled as to why you think she is such a bad actress yes her character cry's a fair bit but that's just because of how she was written and whats she's gone through if you don't like her characterization (didn't have a problem with tbh) hate on the writers not the actress because for my money she has done fine with the material she has gotten.
You also seem to be under the misconception that she unrealistically held her own against the far superior and more experianced Ashur which is simply not what happened , Ashur Toyed with her from the outset parrying and deflecting her blows with ease , it was his hubris that was his downfall gloating in true Ashur fashion with her at his mercy instead of properly disarming her and slitting her throat , thus allowed her to get the drop on him.
While I was kinda sad to see him go I loved that he even as he bled out from balls and neck he was still delightfully vindictive telling her and crixus his death will not erase the memories of his little soldier in her nore the ones that followed, an a**hole to the bitter end was our Ashur
Oenamaeus in battle was unreal, himself and Gannicus made that battle scene, really would have loved to see him stay in the show to become a general later on considering he was the only one who has an air of authority about him but not surprised he was killed off. Writers needed someone to go on the rebel side and it was just too easy to kill him for impact.
It emerged a while back that Peter Mensah(oenomaous) had been cast in season 5 of true blood so whether killing him off was always the plan or whether the actor asked to be killed off is the question.Didnt see the Ilythia/Lucritia thing coming, thought sure they would both move to Rome where the action would be next season and act in an introductory manner to bring in new characters.
While like you I can't say i saw it coming it made sense to clear the decks , bringing one or both of them back would have just been abit of fan service, not really served the story and would have shown a lack of belief that the new characters/villians were up to the task and so they needed two plotting women. Also you gotta remember these were ancient times a women place in Roman society were likely defined by who they were married to or who their father and what with Lucretia being a widow and of questionable stock according to Batiatus's dad and Illythia losing her father in the arena ep and glaber in this one how exactly were they to be realistically shoehorned into the narrative next season.All in all they wrapped it up well and set it up for the next series.
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PhiloCypher wrote: »I think your being a tad harsh here both in your ****e ratio and your somewhat irrational hatred of Mira , like you I found the Mira warrior princess routine a tad ott I could have accepted her archery skills but for a house body slave her hand to hand skills put some of the other gladiators to shame. That said I gotta give alot of credit to the writers for not going the obvious route with her and spartacus and having her become this shows Varinia(kirk douglas's spartacus love interest) by having him fall for her , something I feel would have undermined his whole mission statement at this point in the story . I loved that she wanted more then he had to give.
May be a bit off on the percentage but I stand by the sentiment that a lot of the episode was poor as were a lot of other episodes in relation to the rebel storyline. With the exception of the attack on the Arena I cant remember any episode good from start to finish. In the finale I thought the only good part of it was the last 15/20 minutes and the rest of the rebel side was just filler not adding anything to the main story, certainly nothing necessary or worth watching.
Not going the obvious route doesnt excuse the the fact that the route they did go was poorly executed. I dislike her because she was a poorly written character imo, its not irrational I dont think. I just hated the character. She was written into everything going, she was jammed down my throat at every turn and there was so little behind it all. If your gonna give a character so much screen time then you need to build the character. I cant even remember what her story was, she had a fling with Spartacus in the Ludas and then she was first officer to the entire rebel cause/master bowman/fighter. There was nothing she did that painted her in a good light in my opinion. Everything seemed forced to me.In fairness being that this was the finale and they were in quite the pickle the motivational speech was highly appropriate, we just don't need one in every ep like we seem to have had this season.
Yeah but he had about four or five in that one episode, I'm starting to think its all Liam is particularly good at so they milk it for everything they can to avoid exposing his weaknesses in the other parts of his role.In fairness as much as I/we love Ashur he had to go, there are only so many Romans he can ingratiate himself into service to , with Glaber gone and the Rebellion possibly moving beyond Capua's environs next season we were never realistically gonna see the rise of the house of Ashur as interesting an idea as that sounded, he simply had to go and in fairness it made narrative sense to have the person most wronged by him have the final word ie. Naevia.
Still puzzled as to why you think she is such a bad actress yes her character cry's a fair bit but that's just because of how she was written and whats she's gone through if you don't like her characterization (didn't have a problem with tbh) hate on the writers not the actress because for my money she has done fine with the material she has gotten.
I know he had to die eventually and cutting all ties to Capua to focus on Rome next season is the way to go about things but four of the lead characters in the show had a score to settle with him, he was a massive character himself and a showdown with someone has been building. A fight with Naevia was such a hug waste considering his back story. I'm not sure if she's a bad actress but she's crap at playing Naevia, her facial expressions are always way over the top. Theres no subtlety about her.You also seem to be under the misconception that she unrealistically held her own against the far superior and more experianced Ashur which is simply not what happened , Ashur Toyed with her from the outset parrying and deflecting her blows with ease , it was his hubris that was his downfall gloating in true Ashur fashion with her at his mercy instead of properly disarming her and slitting her throat , thus allowed her to get the drop on him.
While I was kinda sad to see him go I loved that he even as he bled out from balls and neck he was still delightfully vindictive telling her and crixus his death will not erase the memories of his little soldier in her nore the ones that followed, an a**hole to the bitter end was our Ashur
I was more so talking about her in the other battle scenes where she was running around, parrying blows and killing Roman soldiers. I dont think the Ashur fight was realistic either but I'm talking generally rather than about that specifically.While like you I can't say i saw it coming it made sense to clear the decks , bringing one or both of them back would have just been abit of fan service, not really served the story and would have shown a lack of belief that the new characters/villians were up to the task and so they needed two plotting women. Also you gotta remember these were ancient times a women place in Roman society were likely defined by who they were married to or who their father and what with Lucretia being a widow and of questionable stock according to Batiatus's dad and Illythia losing her father in the arena ep and glaber in this one how exactly were they to be realistically shoehorned into the narrative next season.
I disagree it wouldnt have been fan service at all or wouldnt have showed lack of belief in new characters. Its just a way of carrying on the story, Lucritia has been talking about Rome for a while, Ilythia wanted to go there with the baby. Lucritia needed Ilythia and Ilythia bore a notable Roman name and probably a sizable fortune, she wouldnt have been left with nothing when she lost her husband and father. If it was done it would probably have been seamless. But cutting all ties and making it about Sartacus v Rome directly from now on was probably the better move.0 -
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PhiloCypher wrote: »They did build the character tho just not in the way you wanted evidently.
Probably, I also didnt like her face. Perhaps it was irrational but whatever it was I just hated her seeing her. Glad she's gone but they could have done a bit more with her death.Yeh but it's the finale !!!!! its all about context mate, speechifying over wine in the rebel camp in midseason = bad , rousing motivational speeches when up **** creek in the finale = good .
Yeah but it seemed that his little speeches were the focal points of the finale. Like I said they could have played up Mira's death or Oenamaeus's death or Ashurs. Seemed to me all the building was done by speeches which just reiterated the same stuff every time rather than high impact scenes.In a less bombastic show then this perhaps they might have had her underplay the trauma of being gang raped by a minefull of men for months on end but this isn't a very subtle show now is it, if you want subtlety Mad Men or breaking bad should be your touchstones.
Problem is she wasnt a big character, she came back a few episodes in, recast, had no lines for pretty much a further 3 episodes. Was a background character until the latter part of the season when she was shown to train with Crixus a few times. And then she's at the forefront dispatching such a huge character like Ashur's death could and should have been a lot bigger. Other shows have nothing to do with it (I lost interest in Breaking bad by the way, very overrated
) I just think she's not that good. The subtlety doenst have to be that subtle, others manage it easily in the show. Look at the wild woman, she's mad a march hare but still subtle enough to show her range without pulling the acting for dummies facial expressions.Wasn't implying Ilythia would be a pauper just that with her dad, glaber and Varinius dead her ability to influence the power players was likely gone.
I know you wernt I just meant she had means to establish herself in Rome, probably had family, old friends. A name went a long way in those days in regards introductions. Her trying to manoeuvre her way up in Rome wouldnt have detracted anything from the story and would have been a means to introduce new characters.0 -
She had somewhat of a severe face alright but it kinda suited how they portrayed her with all the excessive asskicking they had her doing , if she were softer featured they may have decided to go another way with the character who knows. I do agree they could have done more with with her death he only mourned her for about 2 mins onscreen before getting back on mission, for me they should have had her death leave him shaken for at least a portion of the episode with Crixus/Gannicus/Oenomaus/Agron picking up the slack on the motivational side while taking turns to shake him out of his funk , then just when they are at their lowest ebb it is revealed he was working on a plan all along ie. the vines .Probably, I also didnt like her face. Perhaps it was irrational but whatever it was I just hated her seeing her. Glad she's gone but they could have done a bit more with her death.
Naevia IS a big character, she has been with us since episode 1 of Spartacus , her love affair with Crixus was one of the most popular plot threads in blood and Sand . They may have recast the role but it's the same character , you seem to be retroactively diminishing the characters role in the series as a whole because you don't like the girl they recast in the role.Problem is she wasnt a big character, she came back a few episodes in, recast, had no lines for pretty much a further 3 episodes. Was a background character until the latter part of the season when she was shown to train with Crixus a few times. And then she's at the forefront dispatching such a huge character like Ashur's death could and should have been a lot bigger. Other shows have nothing to do with it (I lost interest in Breaking bad by the way, very overrated) I just think she's not that good. The subtlety doenst have to be that subtle, others manage it easily in the show. Look at the wild woman, she's mad a march hare but still subtle enough to show her range without pulling the acting for dummies facial expressions.
Look at it this way would there really have been any doubt who would come out the victor in a Ashur/Crixus or a Ashur/Oenomaus fight assuming their beefs were more deserving ? no of course not he would have been soundly beaten, there would have been no tension to the fight whatsoever. The ashur/Naevia fight on the other hand was full of suspense not least because they had already killed of Mira earlier in the episode so literally anything could happen.
The problem seems to be that the recasting of this role and Spartacus has produced an emotional discontinuity with these characters , Naevia being the one to kill Ashur would have gone down a lot more smoothly with you and worked better for me if the role hadn't been recast, as we would have been looking at this decision (Naevia vs Ashur) through the prism of the characters history as a whole and not just on whats happened to her since the new actress came on board. Similarly I'm sure we would have forgiven Andy Whitfield a multitude of the sins we heap on Liam because we were so attached to his portrayal.
Yeh spose keeping Ilythia alive might have been worth it , if only to fire the loaded gun that was her murder of Crassus's niece Liccinia.I know you wernt I just meant she had means to establish herself in Rome, probably had family, old friends. A name went a long way in those days in regards introductions. Her trying to manoeuvre her way up in Rome wouldnt have detracted anything from the story and would have been a means to introduce new characters.0 -
PhiloCypher wrote: »Naevia IS a big character, she has been with us since episode 1 of Spartacus , her love affair with Crixus was one of the most popular plot threads in blood and Sand . They may have recast the role but it's the same character , you seem to be retroactively diminishing the characters role in the series because you don't like the girl they recast in the role.
But she hasnt played anything other than a background role in this series. She's been recast, the character has gone through a drastic change also and she's been kept to the background until one of the biggest events of the show so far, Ashur's comeuppance. If I'm being overly harsh on the actress its because the writers havent given her an opportunity to claim the role. Like you said her story with Crixus was a major plot of season 1. Then she's recast and kept to the background, she didnt carry the weight to make Ashur's death as relevant I dont think. There may be an element of me not seeing her as the same character but do many ? And I wont take all the blame for that eitherLook at it this way would there really have been any doubt who would come out the victor in a Ashur/Crixus or a Ashur/Oenomaus fight assuming their beefs were more deserving ? no of course not he would have been soundly beaten, there would have been no tension to the fight whatsoever. The ashur/Naevia fight on the other hand was full of suspense not least because they had already killed of Mira earlier in the episode so literally anything could happen.
But Ashur being in that position was a bit stupid to begin with. Why would Glaber gift his hated enemy a prize like Ashur's head before a final attack which he was planning ? Ashur and his gang should have met a couple of Crixus/Gannicus/Spartacus/Oenamaeus in battle and had an old fashioned showdown like the Egyptian was.The problem seems to be that the recasting of this role and Spartacus has produced an emotional discontinuity with these characters , Naevia being the one to kill Ashur would have gone down a lot more smoothly with you and worked better for me if the role hadn't been recast, as we would have been looking at this decision (Naevia vs Ashur) through the prism of the characters history as a whole and not just on whats happened to her since the new actress came on board. Similarly I'm sure we would have forgiven Andy Whitfield a multitude of the sins we heap on Liam because we were so attached to his portrayal.
Possibly but then possibly not, considering he was the Gladiator who never made the brotherhood and screwed over all the rest I always assumed it would be one of the guys who finally caught him. Although it might not grate as much if Naevia wasnt recast it would still grate I think.
I wasnt that attached to Andy's Spartacus either, I wasnt a fan until the latter part of the season and by then for better or worse it was his Spartacus. My main issue with Liam is his lack of fighting skill, physical presence and emotional acting. He's great for the old speeches but not that great at everything else. Andy would have carried on as he was.0 -
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yeah read that yesterday, they said that they really felt like going back and reshooting that scene, as a lot of people in cluding myself thought she was alive, to bad i really loved her caracter she was a great bitch:D, and viva bianca is hot:D:DSo is it confirmed that Illythia is definitely dead? It certainly seems to me that she was alive at the end.
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dodderangler wrote: »Seen one episode didn't like it
I'm all for differing opinions. With many other shows I would gladly debate the finer points of the show with you and try and change your mind.
However not with Game of Thrones. This is all thats needed.
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Join Date:Posts: 23231
Personally I really enjoy this show, each series brings different elements to the table that whereas completely different tie in to the overall story line.
Series 1 - Betrayal by the Romans, searching for the wife, training to be a Gladiator, making allegiances with the others.
Series 2 - Setup of the house, giving a better understanding to events in series 1.
Series 3 – Forming of a larger gathering, Roman politics, being out in the open, dealing with freedom.
Each season has had their own pros and cons and everyone will be comparing original actors & actresses to their replacements, I think that it has been a great show for planting seeds, allowing season/series long story lines to come through as well as showing plenty of nudity & violence
I think the next series is going to be very slow, pretty much a complete new set of bad guys are going to need to be introduced as well as a few more new story lines between the “goodies”, especially between Ganacas and the German girl.
Also, great timing by Starz and HBO to have Spartacus finish up just in time for Game of Thrones to start 0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY
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