Is 'Irishness' important?

bigfatmess

Hi all,

This is a flippant way of asking a serious question...


A majority in Ireland:

• don't speak the Irish language
• don't hate the Brits anymore
• are (mostly) not church-going Catholics anymore

1. So what what do people think it means to be Irish these days?
2. And is 'Irishness' (whatever it means) important to you?

MagicMarker

No.

/thread.

Spear

Moved from N&F.

Wolfe Tone

I think AH may be a better fit

Enkidu

bigfatmess wrote: »

A majority in Ireland:

don't speak the Irish language
don't hate the Brits anymore
are (mostly) not church-going Catholics anymore?

That's a very narrow view of Irishness. It's funny, the Bards and the old Gaelic order were full of bawdy sexual humour, enjoyed drinking, didn't really hate the Brits (read any of their literature and you'll see this) and were not really frequent church goers. In fact to all intents and purposes they probably would have felt more at home in todays Ireland than the 1880-1980 period. Okay, they did speak Irish, but it was just their language not an ideology.

It's also funny that you put the language with the other two, because back when most people did speak Irish, nobody really cared about "the Brits".

Your definition of Irishness belongs to a narrow range of the island's history.

Ostrom

Economic value is significant. With it being Saturday I'm too lazy to search out the figures, but the tourist board visitor surveys ask for reason for visit.

If I remember, one of the questions is a multiple choice or post-coded multi-response, any many of the highest-ranked responses are of typical 'Oirish' association. I remember reading a content analysis paper a few years back that sampled 300 US destination tourst publications and found no photos showing rain. Image management in this sense is critical.

dubhthach

Enkidu wrote: »

That's a very narrow view of Irishness. It's funny, the Bards and the old Gaelic order were full of bawdy sexual humour, enjoyed drinking, didn't really hate the Brits (read any of their literature and you'll see this) and were not really frequent church goers. In fact to all intents and purposes they probably would have felt more at home in todays Ireland than the 1880-1980 period. Okay, they did speak Irish, but it was just their language not an ideology.

It's also funny that you put the language with the other two, because back when most people did speak Irish, nobody really cared about "the Brits".

Your definition of Irishness belongs to a narrow range of the island's history.

Even more fun when you read about marriage in 14-17th century Ireland. Most people had "civil marriages" -- only about 5-10% in church, as divorce was allowed under Brehon law. I've read of marriages where it was the man's fourth and the woman's third. Makes Dallas (and other US tv) seem tame!

barry711

I don't think there is a meaning to belonging to any specific country that we are born into by complete chance.

What it means to me to be Irish...Its a very good question and I only wish more people would answer this to get an insight into the Irish minds of people. To me it means nothing really because I cant see why it should.

flyingoutside

I think Irishness is important to people but what they think Irishness is very different for different people.

MyKeyG

Irishness relates very much to National identity which is important because it in turn relates to culture. That's why we visit other countrys because of the diversity and variety in culture, it's attractive in it's distinctiveness and unfamiliarity, without it we're all the same.

The Irish culture is considered friendly, welcoming, fun loving etc. We're known for our contributions to the arts and to the building of societies in other lands through immigration. It's an identity and culture I'm proud of but it wouldn't be the be all and end all.

slowburner

dubhthach wrote: »

Even more fun when you read about marriage in 14-17th century Ireland. Most people had "civil marriages" -- only about 5-10% in church, as divorce was allowed under Brehon law. I've read of marriages where it was the man's fourth and the woman's third. Makes Dallas (and other US tv) seem tame!

That's seven billable transactions, I wonder if the Brehon lawyers charged as much as today's solicitors.

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

Even more fun when you read about marriage in 14-17th century Ireland. Most people had "civil marriages" -- only about 5-10% in church, as divorce was allowed under Brehon law. I've read of marriages where it was the man's fourth and the woman's third. Makes Dallas (and other US tv) seem tame!

Here's another funny one from "The Heptides" a collection of wise sayings:
(I use the translation given in Volume IV of Eugene O'Curry's and Dr John O'Donovan's "Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland".)

There are seven fathers who do not pay the liabilities of their sons, though it is from them they descend:
a king
a bishop
and
a man from whom is sense has departed
a man who has departed from the world
and
a man for whom his tribe answers
a semi-free man
and
a cu-glas*

*Nobody knows what cu-glas means, literally grey-hound, some think it means a foreigner in Ireland who was exiled from his own country but we are not sure.

dubhthach

Enkidu wrote: »

Here's another funny one from "The Heptides" a collection of wise sayings:
(I use the translation given in Volume IV of Eugene O'Curry's and Dr John O'Donovan's "Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland".)

There are seven fathers who do not pay the liabilities of their sons, though it is from them they descend:
a king
a bishop
and
a man from whom is sense has departed
a man who has departed from the world
and
a man for whom his tribe answers
a semi-free man
and
a cu-glas*

*Nobody knows what cu-glas means, literally grey-hound, some think it means a foreigner in Ireland who was exiled from his own country but we are not sure.

Well weren't the normans also know as the "Gall Glas" in the pre-invasion era (11-12th century) when some of them seemed to have acted as mercenaries. Obviously the name implies "chain mail" thence them been "Grey foreigners"

As for son of bishop, well thence the surname "Mac an Easpaig" (mc anespie) and Mac an tSagairt (Taggart -- son of the priest)

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

Here's another funny one from "The Heptides" a collection of wise sayings:
(I use the translation given in Volume IV of Eugene O'Curry's and Dr John O'Donovan's "Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland".)

There are seven fathers who do not pay the liabilities of their sons, though it is from them they descend:
a king
a bishop
and
a man from whom is sense has departed
a man who has departed from the world
and
a man for whom his tribe answers
a semi-free man
and
a cu-glas*

*Nobody knows what cu-glas means, literally grey-hound, some think it means a foreigner in Ireland who was exiled from his own country but we are not sure.

Can you enlighten an ignoramus? I know what the first four escapees from their filial liabilities are but not the 'man for whom his tribe answers' or the 'semi-free man': and why would they be excused?

Torakx

bigfatmess wrote: »

Hi all,

This is a flippant way of asking a serious question...


A majority in Ireland:

• don't speak the Irish language
• don't hate the Brits anymore
• are (mostly) not church-going Catholics anymore

1. So what what do people think it means to be Irish these days?
2. And is 'Irishness' (whatever it means) important to you?

Im not very "irish" ive lived all over the country and so picked up alot of stuff and ways of thinking from different areas.also i have been somewhat americanised and had alot of religious influence which i now rebel against.

I do however see being irish as important for most people.
Unlike myself alot of folks grow up in more or less the same area or part of the country and tend to not travel much from their roots and ways of thinking.
When you look at the global community it is slowly becoming more and more open and alot of national barriers are being broken down intentionally.
This opens the way for alot of positive things.
But it also allows more union politically and economically between large bodies of nations (europe,united states etc).
If this trend continues we may find we will have even few people controller a larger portion of other people than we already do.
And i see this as a very bad thing indeed.

Consider the power county councils might have had over the previous years and how much is being handed over to the state and in turn over years how much of that is and will be handed over to europe.
Now consider the united states and its federal government and how that is turning out.
And finally consider a world government with a small group of powerfull individuals dictating their will.
For these reasons i appreciate whats left of irish nationalism and peoples sense of being irish.
It helps make a seperation between our country and our lives and those who are all around us in other land masses with different cultures,leaders and politics.
It dosnt mean we have to be racist or anything.just that we maintain a sense of independance and uniqueness as a form of protection from losing our rights over long periods of time.

john47

I'm bumping this thread for a couple of reasons;

(1) With imigration so high over the last couple of years our Irish identiy is probably now more important than ever, as we spread our wings...

(2) I'm working on a set of paintings that, IMHO represent the Ireland of today.

So what do you think makes you Irish?

John Ryan

CillianL

There's a great quote in Benjamin Barber's Jihad vs McWorld
'Foreign countries don't feel foreign anymore'.

The fact is that Ireland is an open economy,speaking a language that belongs to nobody and we have to interpret our identity as we go along because its not rooted in anything particularly solid.
Europe is just as McDonalised as Ireland is but the core of national identity in countries such as France, Italy is their language, which was essential to the nation building efforts of the 18th and 19th centuries so in spite of the rapid changes that have taken place there, their national conciousness is expressed in a language that reflects the history of their country. In Ireland obviously we threw Irish away so we don't really have much to differentiate ourselves from the big 'other' i.e the English.
Personally I don't think things like accents, or ideas that the 'warm and friendly' Irish personality along with 'our love of drink and craic' are strong enough to merit being superimposed as national identity as those traits are found all over the world and implies then that any 'Irish' people who don't have them are not.

In short 'Irishness' as a debate is an emotional topic, but in my opinion the facts show that Irishness is now a shallow concept. Of course we'll always be slightly different but not noticeably so

bbeck11

Does being born in a different country and considering yourself "50% Irish" Count? But seriously Ireland is the most lovely country and if you don't agree then you can't say you appreciate it because even though the economy is low and the political corruption evolves the people are always going to have "Irishness". They are always going to be most welcoming and pleasant which is what I consider Irish people to be today. I think the language is challenging but worth reading into! Over all the country is clean the people are amazing and your Irishness is evolving overtime as life goes on..