Raw Milk and its' proposed ban

LostCovey

5live wrote: »

Dont be silly Simon. Sure dont the dept get the journal for you for free;)

Wel that's true, but don't be telling everyone or they will all want a copy.

LC

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

Apparently there will be a raw milk panel and workshop at the Virginia show on 30th July - anyone interested should go along!

Will they be making raw milk in the workshop?

Conflats

a big problem I could see with selling 'raw' milk is if some out break happened of e-coli, tb etc the farmer could be in a lot of bother with legal action because ireland seems to be if anything is wrong they want monetary remuneration. Plus the media who know nothing on farming and the general public both home and abroad if anything happened they got whiff of it then it could cause a lot of damage to the whole dairy sector just remember back to the dioxin crisis not all farms were infected but the media tarred the industry with the same brush. like you would want to trust the farmer producing the 'raw' milk an awful lot and make sure he has good hygiene

IR

Conflats

I totally understand your concerns there, and the Minister for Agriculture has expressed the same concerns.

However, I do think that by ensuring that all sales are from highly regulated farms only that we can minimise risks to well within acceptable level.
For example farms that wish to sell raw milk would then be subject to twice yearly herd testing and increased requirements for milking parlour hygiene, regular spot testing of the milk etc

At the end of the day then it is because of this to a large extent that any of these licensed farmers would be scrupulous in production as they would be more than aware of the dangers IF there product was below par

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

Conflats

I totally understand your concerns there, and the Minister for Agriculture has expressed the same concerns.

However, I do think that by ensuring that all sales are from highly regulated farms only that we can minimise risks to well within acceptable level.
For example farms that wish to sell raw milk would then be subject to twice yearly herd testing and increased requirements for milking parlour hygiene, regular spot testing of the milk etc

At the end of the day then it is because of this to a large extent that any of these licensed farmers would be scrupulous in production as they would be more than aware of the dangers IF there product was below par

This is based on a fundamentally flawed perception of the risks from raw milk, and suggests to me that you may not have a lot of experience of dairy farming (and I don't mean to suggest by that that you have less entitlement to hold an opinion - but it may be a less informed opinion).

The idea that people who are scrupulous, "above par" and have high milking parlour hygiene produce safe raw milk is a bit simplistic.

Yes that would reduce some risks. Others however are inherent.

Let us be blunt, you are extracting a fluid from animal very close to its waste disposal zone, from a gland that is prone to bacterial infections.

No matter how white the milker's cap, or how shiny the steel in the parlour, there is a food safety risk if the milk is consumed raw.

This risk is enhanced by lowered immunity (illness, chemotherapy, age, modern 'sheltered' kids, whatever).

The argument for raw milk suggests that the whole milk processing & pasteurisation industry has been built on a myth, and is based on very wooly thinking. Having regard to the consequences of a high profile outbreal of a milk borne disease (if the raw milers one this argument) we have to recognise this well organised and vociferous splinter campaign as dangerous nonsense.

LostCovey

DjFlin

I dont think I've ever had raw milk. I bet its amazing :eek:

IR

DjFlin wrote: »

I dont think I've ever had raw milk. I bet its amazing :eek:

'Tis indeed, I actually just polished off a lovely cold glass, and it was the start of the bottle, so loads of the cream from top went in to the glass. absolutely delicious stuff!

5live

IR wrote: »

'Tis indeed, I actually just polished off a lovely cold glass, and it was the start of the bottle, so loads of the cream from top went in to the glass. absolutely delicious stuff!

Is it pasteurisation or homogenisation or both or any treatment of milk in any way shape or form you are against.

Look ir. The risks for the entire dairy industry is too great if an outbreak of a milk borne disease were to appear. The majority of consumers are hugely risk adverse especially where food is concerned and to be honest not adequately educated enough to ascertain the risks involved with non contaminated foods. I certainly am not and would have a higher level of education than the general population. Like in F&M and BSE, all related products, whether they carry a risk or not would be left to rot on shelves. So for a product that at best would command a market share of less than 1% you and your associates would put eg our 15% of the entire powdered baby food market under threat (a high premium market) and also our entire dairy export market for months and resultant years of discounted commodity prices and returns to our farms for a 12 month product that will barely cover the cost of production as it is and then heap MORE regulation and investment on it.

Jebus love buy a cow

IR

5Live,

I am not sure why you would be confused? Am I against Pasteurisation - No. Am I against homogenisation - no, not entirely, though I don't see it as being that necessary, but that's another day's work. I am however, PRO having the choice to buy and drink unpasteurised, unhomogenised milk if desired from a regulated producer.

I don't see a big point to continuing this back and forth any further - I have made my position clear several times, and you are not reading my posts correctly - if you were you would see for example that I never claimed to be against pasteurisation.
Anyway, one further point I would make about your post in relation to the reputation of our milk industry is why we think in Ireland we have to do things so differently from other countries? Many of our European neighbours including England, France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden allow sales of raw milk and their dairy markets have not collapsed, nor do they see the associated risk as being too high. Interestingly New Zealand who leads the field in dairy and to who we often look for examples allows the sale of raw milk also.

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

5Live,

I am not sure why you would be confused? Am I against Pasteurisation - No. Am I against homogenisation - no, not entirely, though I don't see it as being that necessary, but that's another day's work. I am however, PRO having the choice to buy and drink unpasteurised, unhomogenised milk if desired from a regulated producer.

I don't see a big point to continuing this back and forth any further - I have made my position clear several times, and you are not reading my posts correctly - if you were you would see for example that I never claimed to be against pasteurisation.
Anyway, one further point I would make about your post in relation to the reputationof our milk industry is why we think in Ireland we have to do things so differently from other countries? Many of our European neighbours including England, France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden allow sales of raw milk and their dairy markets have not collapsed. Interestingly New Zealand who leads the field in dairy and to who we often look for examples allows the sale of raw milk also.

I don't think you understand 5live's point, IR. He is not saying that the market will collapse if it is allowed, he is saying that it is an unacceptable risk.

+Most of those countries you list are less dependant on high value /premium dairy exports than we are. We are huge contributors to the world infant formula market.

LC

IR

Two interesting articles in the Business Post today raising the issue, one in the main paper and one in the magazine...

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

Two interesting articles in the Business Post today raising the issue, one in the main paper and one in the magazine...

Interesting???

Or just two more outputs from whatever PR firm is running this disinformation campaign?

The articles are fairly garbled, and in fact the one in the magazine seemed to be arguing that inspectors should be policing quality as well as safety.

Other ráiméis included the suggestion that outdoor pigs are less at risk of Trichinella than intensively reared pigs (its the other way around) and that burger vendors should serve pink burgers on request.

I think that food critics are never going to be the best guides to food safety.

LostCovey

IR

ICSA Ireland Against the ban of raw milk

7th July 2011
ICSA voices concerns over raw milk ban

The Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers’ Association (ICSA) and other groups have today (29th June) voiced their concern over the impending ban on raw milk sales that is set to come into force this year in Ireland. ICSA Executive Researcher, Gillian Westbrook, has said that the decision “should be that of the consumer whereas Ireland is adopting an American style approach to food regulation.”

More here...
http://www.icsaireland.com/page.asp?cid=1602

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

ICSA Ireland Against the ban of raw milk

7th July 2011
ICSA voices concerns over raw milk ban

The Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers’ Association (ICSA) and other groups have today (29th June) voiced their concern over the impending ban on raw milk sales that is set to come into force this year in Ireland. ICSA Executive Researcher, Gillian Westbrook, has said that the decision “should be that of the consumer whereas Ireland is adopting an American style approach to food regulation.”

More here...
http://www.icsaireland.com/page.asp?cid=1602

The ICSA are against the ban????? Clearly it's DOOMED!
LC

5live

IR wrote: »

5Live,

I am not sure why you would be confused? Am I against Pasteurisation - No. Am I against homogenisation - no, not entirely, though I don't see it as being that necessary, but that's another day's work. I am however, PRO having the choice to buy and drink unpasteurised, unhomogenised milk if desired from a regulated producer.

I don't see a big point to continuing this back and forth any further - I have made my position clear several times, and you are not reading my posts correctly - if you were you would see for example that I never claimed to be against pasteurisation.
Anyway, one further point I would make about your post in relation to the reputation of our milk industry is why we think in Ireland we have to do things so differently from other countries? Many of our European neighbours including England, France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden allow sales of raw milk and their dairy markets have not collapsed, nor do they see the associated risk as being too high. Interestingly New Zealand who leads the field in dairy and to who we often look for examples allows the sale of raw milk also.

As LC has said, we export over 90% of our dairy produce, in all types od dried and processed forms. Only NZ has a similar reliance on exports to take their excess produce over home demand.

You have conveniently ignored the potential collapse of the dairy industry if ANY contamination was found in either the raw or processed milk produced. But why would you worry. Sure you would just go out and buy imported pasteurised milk to ease your worries and that of those couple of hundred people who are agitating for the sale of raw milk. Off the work with you cornflakes and imported milk while we are left with millions of tons of milk product to sell, if we are extremely lucky, for a fraction of the production price and the loss of all our premium markets, indeed ALL our markets and the resultant decimation of our entire industry and futures and our childrens futures. But hey, i'm all right jack!!!!!!!!!!!

Will you suffer? NO NOT ONE IOTA.

But on a cheerful note, LOL at quoting the ICSA:D. Just so as you know for future reference etc they are the irish CATTLE and SHEEP association. They have as much relevance to the future of the dairy industry as scuba gear has for the future of space exploration. The 3 groups that have any relevance for the dairy industry are the IFA, ICMSA and Macra;).

ICSA:D:D:D

IR

Anyone hear the Mooney show on Friday - they had a big discussion on Raw Milk...

5live

Great stuff ir. Ignore what you cant answer:rolleyes:

IR

5Live, I've no problem discussing the issue, but I have already addressed all of your points in previous posts, so I don't think there is a reason to keep going back and forth, I for one don't have the inclination to make the same points over and over again...
I haven't ignored anything, I think it is the other way around...

5live

Bored now. Have fun with trying to destroy the dairy industry;) meanwhile we continue to supply you with an inexhaustable supply of cheap food so you can go about your daily industry with practically no complaints about quantity or quality.

Must be fun to define your own reality though:p

IR

Five Live, Just a final thing here - It seems as though you are taking the desire by some to have raw milk almost as an insult to the rest of the dairy industry. Pro raw milk does not mean anti-pasteurised milk.
I think it is hugely important to recognise that raw milk campaigners in Ireland are well aware that it is a niche market, and are also hugely proud of the dairy industry as a whole. The desire to be able to buy raw milk is not based on any aim to bring down the milk industry or even to diminish in any way the produce of the vast majority of our dairy farmers. Milk in Ireland, and that includes pasteurised milk is still in the opinion of many the best in the world. But, there are people who would like to buy raw milk, and there are small farmers who are in a position to provide it to them, whilst adding value to their business, They would on the other side of things operate under a stricter set of regulations in order to minimise any risks. There is no campaign which wants to stop pasteurisation and noone wants to see damage done to the industry, but many other countries allow for sales of raw milk and their main dairy industry does just fine alongside that. I think the risk to international reputation is being blown way out of proportion here.

Suckler

IR wrote: »

Five Live, Just a final thing here - It seems as though you are taking the desire by some to have raw milk almost as an insult to the rest of the dairy industry. Pro raw milk does not mean anti-pasteurised milk.
I think it is hugely important to recognise that raw milk campaigners in Ireland are well aware that it is a niche market, and are also hugely proud of the dairy industry as a whole. The desire to be able to buy raw milk is not based on any aim to bring down the milk industry or even to diminish in any way the produce of the vast majority of our dairy farmers. Milk in Ireland, and that includes pasteurised milk is still in the opinion of many the best in the world. But, there are people who would like to buy raw milk, and there are small farmers who are in a position to provide it to them, whilst adding value to their business, They would on the other side of things operate under a stricter set of regulations in order to minimise any risks. There is no campaign which wants to stop pasteurisation and no one wants to see damage done to the industry, but many other countries allow for sales of raw milk and their main dairy industry does just fine alongside that. I think the risk to international reputation is being blown way out of proportion here.

IR: I understand your argument is not anti-pasteurisation or promotion of a campaign that wants to stop pasteurisation, which is not the point that’s being made against raw milk ideas.
I don’t think you are fully comprehending (not giving full thought I mean rather than not understanding) the ramifications for our whole dairy industry should a health scare be sparked by the production of a raw food. Historical scares such as BSE in Europe , the beef scare in Texas, Foot and mouth and even the pork scare in late 2009 show how quickly items can be A. Pulled from the shelves and B. The length of time it takes to rebuild relationships and trust with vendors and consumers.

One of your main points is that it’s a potential viable market and that it could be strictly regulated. What you don’t mention is that those regulations themselves could be prohibitive to entering such a market in the first instance. What then; there would be outcry about heavy hand regulations that need to be relaxed because some farmers who took on this venture can’t make any money.

The dairy industry exports account for 2.2 – 2.5 billion euro annually/ 27% of agricultural output. 4.5 million Tonnes are exported relating to 7-10,000 jobs. What separates us from Greece at the moment is our ability to generate exports – do you really thinking risking this so you can have some fresh milk and a small scale venture opportunity may or may not present itself. Remember this is a idea of prohibiting milk is a very recent one; if the market was there it would have been exploited long ago. The fact it hasn’t shows plainly it’s not a consumer demand.

Also it is not interchangeable with off the shelf milk. Raw milk can cause extreme internal intestinal reaction if you have not, effectively, been reared on the stuff. Giving raw milk to children is in itself a high risk given their un-developed immune systems. As another poster put it; it’s proximity to the waste outlets on the animal are always going to deem this a high risk product.

The ever occurring statement of “I used it since I was young and never did me a bit of harm” is ad hoc. I knew many who smoked and drank, ate poorly each and every day and still lived their nineties but it doesn’t automatically make it good for you.

Lastly; This is a raw product; I could argue that natural bottled water from my local spring tastes better and I should be allowed to sell it by sill bottles by hand and flogging them out of the transport box on mart days because it could be a nice little market for myself. Regulate that market and I have to compete against “Ballygowan” et al, I end up at the same level of sample testing and H&S requirements which makes it uneconomical.

johngalway

Suckler wrote: »

Lastly; This is a raw product; I could argue that natural bottled water from my local spring tastes better and I should be allowed to sell it by sill bottles by hand and flogging them out of the transport box on mart days because it could be a nice little market for myself. Regulate that market and I have to compete against “Ballygowan” et al, I end up at the same level of sample testing and H&S requirements which makes it uneconomical.

It is regulated in other countries however, including parts of our nearest neighbour namely England and Wales. Though I'm led to believe only England has raw milk producers. Also around 28 US states allow it's sale.

I don't think anyone is arguing against proper regulation.

5live

IR wrote: »

Five Live, Just a final thing here - It seems as though you are taking the desire by some to have raw milk almost as an insult to the rest of the dairy industry. Pro raw milk does not mean anti-pasteurised milk.
I think it is hugely important to recognise that raw milk campaigners in Ireland are well aware that it is a niche market, and are also hugely proud of the dairy industry as a whole. The desire to be able to buy raw milk is not based on any aim to bring down the milk industry or even to diminish in any way the produce of the vast majority of our dairy farmers. Milk in Ireland, and that includes pasteurised milk is still in the opinion of many the best in the world. But, there are people who would like to buy raw milk, and there are small farmers who are in a position to provide it to them, whilst adding value to their business, They would on the other side of things operate under a stricter set of regulations in order to minimise any risks. There is no campaign which wants to stop pasteurisation and noone wants to see damage done to the industry, but many other countries allow for sales of raw milk and their main dairy industry does just fine alongside that. I think the risk to international reputation is being blown way out of proportion here.

Thanks for clarifying a few points there scckler;).As for me avoiding any points you made ir how about your avoiding my questioning of your figures of raw milk being more than 10 times safer than pasteurised, your dismissal of the reputation of the dairy industry, your quoting of the icsa on raw milk:D (still laughing at that one;)) and your deification of Darina Allen as the champion of the little man against the big bad corporation (you may be too young to remember some difficulties her corporation had a few years ago and an article questioning her response to it in a now defunct paper but im sure you can google it yourself:)).

I'm sure one of at least 2 posters here would be able to fill the entire demand for raw milk with plenty of milk left over. They would also be favourible for even more regulation of one of the most highly regulated dairy industries in the world:rolleyes: especially in light of recent regulatory sucesses in the banking industry;). If you have any questions you wish to ask feel free to pm as posting here is just a waste of time for me imo.

And let me present you with the solution to your problems on a plate:pac:

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/livestock/2386947

IR

I think this is an article which I think deals with a lot of the issues surrounding the proposed ban very well...

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bxd_bR_bNtQINzk0MjllOTYtODJiNy00ZWFlLTk2MGItYTJlMTg0YjU5MTM1&hl=en_US

For Balance here's another one from the IFJ looking at the possible ramifications for farmers - I'm pretty sure any decent producer would always have insurance though, but anyhow...
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bxd_bR_bNtQIZmI3YmQyZTYtMmU2ZC00YTNmLThlNDgtNmIyYjhhNTc2ZTU5&hl=en_US