hps 190gr problem

tommyboy26

i got a box of hps 190gr today. When i went to load my magazine i noticed the bullet was slightly too long and wouldnt fit. When i loaded one into the chamber and went to close the bolt it was harder to close i assume this was because the bullet was longer. Is this common?

dCorbus

That's a bit odd.

Both your magazine AND the HPS rounds should all be set up well within the SAAMI tolerances. If you have a calipers, check the OAL of the HPS round.

I'm assuming it's a 190gr .308W? If so, the overall length of the round should be no longer than 2.800 inches AFAIK. If the rounds are manufactured longer than this, bring them back to the shop and get a refund, would be my advice.

I'm assuming a lot of information here, so if I've misinterpreted anything, I apologise.

It should also be borne in mind that HPS is manufactured as a Target round, and is not primarily manufactured for use in a mag-fed rifle. I did have some feed problems myself when using the HPS 155gr 308's in a TRG magazine. I put this down to the mag being a bit sticky from lack of use - but now you mention it, it could have been down to the overall lenght of the ammunition. That said, whilst I had mag-feed problems, I had no problem chambering the round and closing the bolt once in.

However, when you say that you had difficulties closing the bolt once you had manually chambered a round, that would worry me more? One major question: Is your rifle a factory rifle or has it been given a new chamber? If it is a factory-chambered rifle, IMO there should be more than enough tolerance for the round to be chambered and the bolt to close without much effort. If it's a custom chamber, that's down to the tighter tolerances of that chamber - it can also be a "problem" with the Savage Palma rifle which has a very particular and tight chamber which only likes some ammo. I haven't heard of any other factory rifles having that issue.

When you say it was hard to close the bolt, was it a struggle to close it or just a slight bit harder than usual, if you know what i mean? The 190gr is a larger bullet head obviously than the 155, 168, or 175 so it may be a bit longer. When you chamber the bullet, carefully close the bolt, and then carefully and slowly open the bolt - Does the bolt open handily enough? Does the round extract? and Are there any rifling marks on the unfired bullet head?

If there are marks from the rifling on the bullet head, this means a) Your chamber is too short, b) Your ammo is too long, or c) Combination of both. If you have a factory rifle with a factory chamber and you've had no difficulties with any ammo prior to this, this would imply to me that the HPS you have is not made to within SAAMI tolerances (which I'd be very surprised at TBH) and you should be able to return the rounds as a bad batch IMO.

Hope that's of some help to you.

tommyboy26

the action was a factory howa action in .308 which has been customized to fit aics stock and lilja barrel. The magazine is a standard five round accuracy international magazine. I usually use 155 hps but could not source any today and i have never had a problem with any other round ever chambered. The bolt was slightly harder to close but nothing major. Once bolt was closed round fired and ejected fine. I only got the one box of 50 and have used 25 of them. I would be inclined to think its the round as i have used several other makes of round with no issue.

Tackleberrywho

I'd go with dC and get a callipers

Either the ammo is too long, or perhaps you headspace is too tight for 190g?

Anyone able to lend you a headspace gauge to verify?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSU2zBQvM8

Have you ever fired any other 190 grain ammo?

FISMA

+1 dCorbus just about covered all bases.

What kind of ammo are we talking about? Was this expensive stuff like Hornady or cheaper stuff - fine for getting on paper like Pvri?

Seeing how this has not happened before, I suspect, as dCorbus mentioned, a bad factory round.

You should have stood a few rounds on end to see if the problem round was taller than the others.

Also, I had a rifle that had the same problem: very hard to close the bolt. Additionally, the brass cases showed scratches on the casings when chambered. No matter what the ammo, every round loaded was difficult.

Fortunately, this one was in the States so I sent it back to the factory and they took care of it no trouble. It is still a bit funny to see the UPS truck coming with that unmistakable cardboard box for delivery! They even had the manufacturer's name on the box!

Hopefully, just a bad round. Next time, hold her out of the pack. The risk involved is just not worth it.

Also, if you have the ammo the night before, it only takes a minute or two to visually/physically check the primers and lengths.

As a good practice, get yourself a caliper, determine the correct length, and give them the once over the night before you shoot. When reloading comes into Ireland, you'll have one piece of the pie tasted.

Slan.

Remmy

FISMA wrote: »

What kind of ammo are we talking about? Was this expensive stuff like Hornady or cheaper stuff - fine for getting on paper like Pvri?

HPS can be gotten for cheaper than some of the more expensive hornady stuff but out of all the .308 ammunition its imo the most accurate factory stuff you can get.Quality control seems to be top notch so I don't think it's that.


Op it could just be a case that the round is marginally longer and so won't feed out of the mag.You could just try feeding the rest in through the top one at a time?

tommyboy26

on a side note does anyone know where i can pick up some hps 155gr as Jim griffen is out of it for a few weeks

stick shooter

In my opinion, It sounds like your rounds are seated a tad long and what you are feeling when you are closing the bolt is the round soft seating .If you have some left over you should measure your oal on the 190grs and the rounds you shot before that fed true the magazine well and also chambered well . I would reckon you will find a difference in length . On most custom builds when someone intends using heavier (longer) rounds most gun builders will give more free bore to accommodate extended rounds . A lot of heavy match rounds are single fed so feeding true the magazine never becomes an issue . In my opinion.

zeissman

You should give the gunsmith that built your rifle a ring to get his opinion.
Maybe he chambered your rifle to suit the lighter shorter bullets.

dCorbus

tommyboy26 wrote: »

on a side note does anyone know where i can pick up some hps 155gr as Jim griffen is out of it for a few weeks

If Jim G. is out of stock on them, try Intershoot - they usually have a stock. Also, AFAIK, John Kavanagh stocks them too on occasion.

dCorbus

stick shooter wrote: »

In my opinion, It sounds like your rounds are seated a tad long and what you are feeling when you are closing the bolt is the round soft seating .If you have some left over you should measure your oal on the 190grs and the rounds you shot before that fed true the magazine well and also chambered well . I would reckon you will find a difference in length . On most custom builds when someone intends using heavier (longer) rounds most gun builders will give more free bore to accommodate extended rounds . A lot of heavy match rounds are single fed so feeding true the magazine never becomes an issue . In my opinion.

That's what it sounds like to me too. Long rounds. OR a short chamber. OR both.

The magazine-feed issue wouldn't really be a worry for me. HPS are not really made for mag-feeding, and are best suited to single-shot loading for target shooting.

The "resistance-when-chambering" would be something I'd look a bit more closely at.

Firstly, I have to say that HPS are a great round (usually) - The best factory target round available here IMO and certainly the most cost-efficient way of improving your scores Which is why I'm surprised that the heads would be seated too long.

As factory-made and proofed-for-sale commercial rounds, they must be within SAAMI specs. As I said, check your lengths to see if they are within the specs. If they are not, that's something Mr. Carmichael needs to be informed about as he should probably issue a recall if this is a batch problem. I'm not saying it is the issue - but until you measure a good sample of the rounds and compare them with spec's, you won't know what the issue really is and any advice anyone gives you can be only supposition and surmising on our parts. Which TBH won't get you any closer to an answer!:rolleyes:

Also, as I mentioned earlier, you do need to check if there are any marks on the heads from the rifling. If there aren't any marks on the head from the rifling, then you are probably not "soft-seating" the bullet, and the problem may actually lie in the chamber and/or the shoulder dimensions of either the brass or the chamber itself.

Again, not enough information to even hazard a guess one way or the other. Out with the calipers!

I don't know who did the chambering work for you, but I'd be very very surprised if you were given an exceptionally tight chamber, without specifically asking for one. Regardless, your chamber (custom or not) should be within SAAMI spec anyway. It may be a tight chamber or it may a loose chamber (that depends on what you decided with your gunsmith or what your gunsmith selected based on your discussions with them). If you got a tight chamber all the better IMO, but it should still take rounds, unless you specifically had the chamber reamed for a specific bullet head.

And I do mean a specific bullet head: one 155gr head by Manufacturer X is not the same as another 155gr head by Manufacturer Y. Whilst nominally the same weight, all different bullet designs will have slight differences in length, bearing surface, section, ogive position, etc etc.

I really do think it's a length-of-round issue, and not a chamber issue, but that's all speculation and guesswork on my part without having more info to hand. If you're worried about this happening again, and in fairness your rifle should handily chamber factory ammo, you should have a quick chat with your gunsmith about this just to set your mind at ease, once you've had a chance to check the ammo. They'll know what sort of chamber they "put into" the gun and can let you know if you should avoid certain head types, lengths, weights, and shapes.

Mr.Flibble

"Soft-seating"

If you chamber one of these cartridges and then extract it without firing, is the round the same length as when it went in?

If you haven't done this and are going to try it, make sure you've a cleaning rod handy, and point the gun up a bit when you extract. (In case the bullet sticks.)



I'm sure you've checked this already, but are you sure the chamber, especially the neck, the breech face and the locking lug seats are all clear & clean?

Tackleberrywho

A piece of sellotape is ~2 thou which is what the Tolerance should allow the bolt to close, 4 Thou is the norm on a hunting gun but tighter tolerences are expected on a custom barrel.
If the Bolt closes with sellotape on the bolt face then the head space is within spec.

The Headspace could have been set up with 155 grain ammo as you may have said that is what you shoot.

If all that works, the easiest test is get a box of hunting or other 190 grain ammo and see if it closes on that.
Failing all that sounds like bad ammo

There is a great vid on youtube about headspacing tricks

zeissman

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

A piece of sellotape is ~2 thou which is what the Tolerance should allow the bolt to close, 4 Thou is the norm on a hunting gun but tighter tolerences are expected on a custom barrel.
If the Bolt closes with sellotape on the bolt face then the head space is within spec.

The Headspace could have been set up with 155 grain ammo as you may have said that is what you shoot.

If all that works, the easiest test is get a box of hunting or other 190 grain ammo and see if it closes on that.
Failing all that sounds like bad ammo

There is a great vid on youtube about headspacing tricks

Headspace is the distance from the case head to the shoulder datum line so this would not change going from a 155 to 190 grain bullet.
I think the length of the throat is the problem, ie the longer bullet is entering the rifling when chambered.
If your gun had a tight chamber you would notice it with your other ammo as well.

Tackleberrywho

Fair point
I remember thinking about 90 grain VLD's for my .223 and I would have needed a longer throat
But when I discovered I would not be able to shoot lighter ammo I said no way

dCorbus

Just in case anyone is wondering what the hell we're all on about and where these figures are coming from, here's a couple of diagrams explaining the various bits which may help explain things a bit better:

Cass

All thats wrong is the bullet is seated too long. A simple re-seat will sort the problem. If they are loading one by one you can use them like this. better of anyway as you don't use a mag in comps.

I bought 2 boxes a short while ago of the 190s and had the same issue. Rang Carmicheal (HPS) and got speaking to the man. He told me the problem, and that they are still 100% safe to fire. After speaking to him i reseated the bullet (by seating them further down into the shell by 15thou) and they shot fine.

You can order specific dimensions(seating depth/jump/jam/OAL) when ordering HPS and sometimes a box or two (or more) can be mistakeningly added to another order. Whether this is an error in packaging or if the next batch of the same machine starts with the previous settings i don't know so won't speculate. Obviously a few were sent over by mistake.

As they are still "lawyer friendly" they are still safe to shoot. By lawyer friendly i mean HPS will not load any of their "factory" loads higher than max. tolerances so every round is still completely safe to use. If ever in doubt though simply return to dealer and they will swap for another box.

Sandy22

Ezridax wrote: »

I bought 2 boxes a short while ago of the 190s and had the same issue. Rang Carmicheal (HPS) and got speaking to the man. He told me the problem, and that they are still 100% safe to fire. After speaking to him i reseated the bullet (by seating them further down into the shell by 15thou) and they shot fine.

Ezridax wrote: »

As they are still "lawyer friendly" they are still safe to shoot. By lawyer friendly i mean HPS will not load any of their "factory" loads higher than max. tolerances so every round is still completely safe to use. If ever in doubt though simply return to dealer and they will swap for another box.

OP.,

If the manufacturer tells you, on the record, to reseat the bullets you should be fine.

Otherwise I'd be cautious about doing something where you don't know if you're compressing the powder charge.

Cass

Absolutely.

i only done so on the word of the manufacturer. I would never had done it had i not made contact with them. Its simpler and safer to simply return the ammo.

bunny shooter

Would reseating the head come under 're-loading' and therefore not be legally available to the great un washed :D

Cass

Until the proposed Explosive bill is passed there is no definitive "right" answer to that. However from a personal point of view ONLY i would not call it reloading as i never removed the head/bullet and therefore was not in possession of the primer and propellant as seperate componants.

I used a gauge to measure the depth of the chamber then measured the round, and used the press to reseat the bullet to the necessary depth. I bought the ammo 6 - 7 weeks ago and didn't do anything until the reloading facilities were fully up and running in the mindlands, and as i'm involved in the reloading i was covered. As to anyone else i would imagine as long as the heads are not extracted it would not come under reloading. The only thing you are doing is "pushing" the bullet deeper. If it were already short enough there wouldn't be a cycling issue.

Of course this is only my opinion and has no basis in law and as i've said a hundred times before i would sooner return the ammo than do anything with it. Plus with factory ammo how many times does this issue actually come up?

I've been in contact with tommyboy and while he is getting slightly higher resistance from the bolt when cycling he is not experiencing any difficulty in closing the bolt. This means his chamber is slightly longer than mine as the rounds wouldn't allow my bolt to close. He has used some of them, without incident and will continue to use the rest of them carefully looking for any warning signs.

EDIT - I would say to anyone else in the same position. Return the ammo to the dealer. DO NOT force the bolt and dfinitely do not slam the bolt closed.