Lee Enfield or AI

Arthur.

Next year all going well I'll be applying for a 303 or 308 and thats it. No more guns. Either that or find a new wife!

I just cant decide between the LE or AI. All my family are telling me go for the LE since thats what they all shot back in the day. But my mates are telling me AI. My mates have never shot open sights or a LE, and I dont think anyone in my family has ever shot an AI so I dont know. Anybody shot both?

Any ideas for me?

It would be an all round rifle by the way. Bit of target and bit of hunting.

Tackleberrywho

Neither if you want to go hunting too.

If you only want one rifle

neither will be what you want.
both are great in their own right, but from your description you are looking for something more along the lines of Varmint rifle.

a AI is far to heavy for real hunting, and not really good enough for real target.

A LE has it's own place, but also will be a serious disadvantage hunting as it has no Bipod, heavy, very limited ammo availability in Hunting class and accuracy is not as good as modern rifles in similar calibre

(I assume you mean deer hunting by the way)

I can see where you are coming from, wanting one rifle.
Try a Hunting rifle, with a varmint barrel and a variable mid range scope and you will get most of the accuracy and hunting ability.

Many Hunting rifles available with after-market stocks to look Mil spec if thats what you are after.

How much experience have you with Rifles out of Interest?

rowa

Don't entirely agree with you tackleberry , the le has good hunting ammo availablity now as the .303 calibre has taken off in the states with the amount of surplus rifles they have over there, ruger has even started chambering hunting rifles for the .303 british again , the poor accuracy was mainly due to the appalling battle sights but there are now scope rails that you don't need to drill the receiver for.
The accepted standard for the le during wartime was 4inch groups at 100 yards and most were far better then that especially ones made later on , most deer are shot at ranges far less than that.

Tackleberrywho

rowa wrote: »

Don't entirely agree with you tackleberry , the le has good hunting ammo availablity now as the .303 calibre has taken off in the states with the amount of surplus rifles they have over there, ruger has even started chambering hunting rifles for the .303 british again , the poor accuracy was mainly due to the appalling battle sights but there are now scope rails that you don't need to drill the receiver for.
The accepted standard for the le during wartime was 4inch groups at 100 yards and most were far better then that especially ones made later on , most deer are shot at ranges far less than that.

The .303 may have a cult following in the states, but it was not known as a deer hunting rifle here.
I used a Swedish Mauser Hunting and I am basing my hunting experience of mil spec veteran Rifles on that.
I did kill several deer with it, but I never felt confident on deer with one, + the safety makes too much fuss and when you put a Modern scope on board you defeat the purpose of having a Veteran rifle.

The OP I feel would end up regretting buying one if he did not use it for classic shoots, which having a modern scope will stop him doing.

The AI is far to heavy for stalking too
The stock alone of an AI is seriously heavy.

A Howa or Remington with a wild dog stock or similar would be far more versatile for the OP to achieve both his goals IMHO
http://www.wilddog.com.au/content/tactical-rifle-stocks.asp

Varmint seems a good compromise

rowa

The lee enfield did have a big following here in the years before the 1972 "ban" on rifles above .22 , i know two older stalkers and it was very popular then if for no other reason then it was cheap to buy an old army rifle. But it all depends on what the op is comfortable using.

Tackleberrywho

I get your point about the LE, I bought the mauser for the criac, but I know I missed out on deer because I had to use sticks to shoot off rather than a Bipod. And it was very heavy to fire offhand

serious difference between LE and AI.
Two very different rifles, 50 years apart in Technology

I'd shoot deer with any rifle that was fit to do it, but anyone who stalks a lot appreciates the hikes you have to do where weight is a primary concern & a rifle that is sun 1" at 100 yards so you can place your shot

The AI is accurate but too heavy
The LE is accurate enough but not ideal either

After that it's up to the OP, but I reckon he does not know yet that he wants a Varmint class rifle as it ticks most of the boxes best that he has stated

rowa

The canadian rangers training etc , scroll to the piccy's and ignore the rest. The le into its third century of practical use.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?166670-Canadian-Rangers-Official-Thread/page2

bunny shooter

Hi Arthur

I have a 1941, Long Branch, LE, No 4 Mk 1. I have fired an AI, but not owned one.

I had a conversation with a firearms dealer on Friday and he reckons it will be harder to licence firearms such as AI's in the future as the PTB reckon they are "sniper rifles".

I use my LE for Classic rifle target shooting with http://www.vcrai.com/, http://sites.google.com/site/lrraishoot/ and http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/.

I have an aftermarket rail that attaches to my LE and I can add a scope as I intend to use it for deer stalking in the future. The scope rail and issued sights are interchangeable in a matter of minutes

The LE is a VERY accurate rifle, in the right hands. People who claim it is not accurate are talking through their rear ends and probably have never fired one or didn't know how to use one properly

http://www.fingalsports.com/ are the people to talk to for a LE or any Classic rifle in this country.

Ammo is widely available in .303 British in both target & hunting. The hunting ammo is quite expensive but you probably wouldn't use a lot of it anyway.

My advice...........either will do the job and if I were in your shoes I'd pick LE every time

Arthur.

Definietly not the answer I was expecting Tackleberrywho. So you think both rifles are wrong.

Compared to everyone here Im still only a beginner. I have a shotgun and rifle (22lr). And Ive being shooting since 2004. In that time I shot plenty of hornet, plenty of 223, and did a bit of experimenting with a 30-06. Actually at the minute Im trying to get myself sorted with my own 223. Lucky for me I spent a bit of time in the US where the laws are a lot more lax and its far easier to "experiment" so to speak.

And I have to disagree with you when you say that it wasnt used as a deer rifle here, simply because 4 members of my family used it for deer back in the 60's. Perhaps as rowa said thats simply because it was a cheap rifle, I dont know, but either way, they still swear by LE to this day. So if it worked for them then it will work for me.

And Bunny Shooter, I had a quick google for that rifle, I couldnt a find a 1941 version, but if its anything like the 1945 version then thats a very nice rifle.

I havent looked at sellers or anything yet, but if I do get a LE it will be a SMLE MK iii. I absolutely love that rifle. And its the one my grandfather had too, so thats a bit of a bonus.

And just to clarify, I havent fired either a LE or AI... or any 308 or 303 for that matter. Probably doesnt count but I did have a day on the range with an AI stock on a remmy 700 in 223 with a nightforce scope and I have to say it was a great gun.

Tackleberrywho

Look Arthur, I'm not saying they can't be used for stalking, the contrary in fact.

I can only give you my experiences from stalking 11 years in my own name and as a gillie for longer.
I also shot targets with a classic rifle and it was not easy using open sights.
I have fired the LE on a range and other than being a noveilty and a bit of fun would be lie bringing your grandfathers hillman hunter out stalking with you up the mountains.

The AI is a fine rifle also, but not designed for stalking either

It is very hard to get a rifle to d both.
Stalking, you want a rifle that can be fired easily and accurately from shoulder, kneeling and prone.
The complication of deer is that there is different seasons for male and female so an accurate scoped rifle is needed if two deer are sitting together and head shots are only on offer.

Bunnyshooter has a lovely LE but you could by a CZ .308 for the same money that would be more accurate on targets & more useful for deer stalking.


An AI is ferocious money for what it is. A Savage FTR will and has kicked the pants off them many times over.
In fact a Savage FTR may be what you need to do most of what you want, they are heavy but can be fired from a stalking bipod.


I am more concerned that you will buy something that may not suit you and be a disappointment to you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQWjVHQ4n2A

A more trad stalking rifle, I appreciate he is using a .22-250 but same set up in .308 would be mores suited for here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk7OuBTpwyI

leupold90

I have an AI and it wouldn't be ideally suited to hunting, unless you fancy carrying something around that weighs the best part of 15lbs.

For target shooting on the other hand it'd be as good as any production rifle you can get.

Can't comment on the Lee Enfield as I've never fired one.

bunny shooter

Here's a link to my model of LE

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=153-1941-No.4-Mk1-Long-Branch-Rifle

And here is me firing it at Midlands, courtesy of CliveJ here :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97ZY4f2oUQ

Unfortunately I have no pictures of it handy

rowa

You say you want a .303 or a .308 , but the indian arsenal of ishapore made the enfield in .308 for years , they do turn up though i have never seen one here, england would be your best bet or ask john kavanagh can he source you one.

Tackleberrywho

rowa wrote: »

You say you want a .303 or a .308 , but the indian arsenal of ishapore made the enfield in .308 for years , they do turn up though i have never seen one here, england would be your best bet or ask john kavanagh can he source you one.

A .308 LE would be far more versatile as a Hunting round too

I never knew they made a .308.

I personally have a Grá for a Garand .308
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_24&products_id=170&zenid=773e9915ebb3225d8720c0a763af2d59

Although, I don't know is BD still selling them, or would you get a licence for them.
I always had more of a Grá for the US and European stuff over the British stuff.

But for stalking in rough ground you really are better equipt with a light rifle that can be fired from a 27" Harris Bipod or prone just as easily IMHO.

Off hand the Mauser I had was very heavy as it was a long rifle, I appreciate the LE is shorter, and any LE I fired was prone.

Of course they will kill deer, but so too will any rifles, most deer stalkers want the best they can get for silent operation, comfort and to be able to take a large scope 56mm Obj lens etc.

When you put them type scopes on a LE they look wrong.
The scopes that look well on LE do not work well on deer

Arthur.

Really, you do gillieing? Id say you love getting up in the morning. Its well for ya! Just out of curiosity, how much is it for a day of deer stalking? I have insurance, would just need to hire a gun and then get yourself, to show me the ropes. I did some deer shooting in the states with a gillie in a tree stand. It was great craic. Cant wait to do it again. Although Id love to actually go out "stalking".

Just after having a look at the video, judging by the chap at around the 2:45 it looks like its a very hard hitting rifle...

I know the AI is expensive, but I figure if its my last gun then I might aswell do it right. I had thought about copying the remmy I mentioned in the last post, with AI stock, only get the remmy in 308. But I was thinking, I could be wrong on this now, but doing that is just dressing up the gun, kinda like how you see some lads with 10/22s looking like something they got from an IRA arms dump. It might look the part, but behind it all its still only a 10/22.

Nice rifle bunny, I was really looking forward to seeing the results at the end of the vid. Are you a vintage rifle man in general, or is that your one and only?

Remmy

bunny shooter wrote: »

Here's a link to my model of LE

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=153-1941-No.4-Mk1-Long-Branch-Rifle

And here is me firing it at Midlands, courtesy of CliveJ here :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97ZY4f2oUQ

Unfortunately I have no pictures of it handy

The bolt operation on that looks smooth as.I wouldn't mind getting a mosin nagant in the future for plinking and informal target shooting but going from vids on youtube they will never run as sweet as that.


OP, I'd say if you definitly have it narrowed it down to those, two get the lee enfield.After you put a good few rounds through it you will be able to decide whether you want to also get a nice light stalking rifle or a dedicated long range toy or just stick with the smelly for everything.I fired a box of ammo through a mk4 and its suprising how much craic the open sights are and also knowing that depending on the model someone had it in their hands going into battle

Tackleberrywho

Stalking can be great fun but a huge amount of luck.
If I were you and wanted to buy one really nice rifle I'd look at Blaser for deer stalking

http://www.blaser.de/R93-Bolt-action-rifles.96.0.html?&L=1

It's hard to pick one rifle that does both jobs though

bunny shooter

Arthur. wrote: »

........Nice rifle bunny, I was really looking forward to seeing the results at the end of the vid.

I actually beat lads with modern scoped rifles that day :cool:

Arthur. wrote: »

........Are you a vintage rifle man in general, or is that your one and only?

I have a few other firearms BUT the Enfield is my pride & joy

Remmy wrote: »

The bolt operation on that looks smooth as.I wouldn't mind getting a mosin nagant in the future for plinking and informal target shooting but going from vids on youtube they will never run as sweet as that............

It's very smooth

Few lads in the classic rifle shooting cirlces have Moisin Nagents.

rowa

A few enfields for sale here , a pallet or two

http://www.euroarms.net/EFD/index.htm

dCorbus

IMvHO Both are great rifles for what they were/are designed for. But.....to compare any Lee Enfield and an Accuracy International is a bit like comparing apples and pears, or rather, it's akin to running a drag-race between a DB5 and a DB9S: Both are great - I'd like to have both - but they both are very different animals and to make comparisons between the two (LE v's AI, or DB5 v's DB9S for that matter) is doing a disservice to both IMO.

First off, for example, just look at the massive price difference between the two:

LE No. 4 Mk1 (1920 - 1950ish), .303, Second-hand = €420 - €900
AI AE Mk1, 24'' barrel, .308, Second-hand = ca. €2400 ex. Shipping/Delivery etc.
AI AE Mk3 .308 New = from about €2740 ex. Shipping/Delivery etc.

So to compare one with the other is a bit of a waste of time. The LE and the AI (in all their various forms) are so different from each other, such comparisons make little or no sense.

From what the OP has posted, he would like to use the rifle for a) Bit of Deer Stalking and b) Bit of Target Shooting. For either of these purposes, neither of these two rifles (LE .303 or AI AE/AW .308) is optimal. Sure, they're both great at what they do, but neither is the best all-rounder (Although, that said, I'm not 100% sure any rifle is a good all-rounder TBH).

And let's not forget, an Remmy700 in a AICS stock is exactly that: a Remmy700 in an AICS stock - It is not an AI AE or AW. That's why one can be got for €Y and the other costs about €(Z≥2.5Y):rolleyes::D.

My advice to the OP would be to look around at a lot more rifles - and not to just limit your choice to just the two you mention. There's a world of choice out there, so why limit yourself?

Wouldn't mind a LE or a Moisin or a K98 myself TBH!!! But would need to find a new wife too, as you so succinctly put it!

& @ Bunny

I had a conversation with a firearms dealer on Friday and he reckons it will be harder to licence firearms such as AI's in the future as the PTB reckon they are "sniper rifles".

Hmmmm.....I'd take that information with a pinch of salt, but I'm surprised at you relaying that information, obviously having taken it at face-value, and not a smiley face or winkie eye to be seen.

Sn1per-rifle my arse!

On that grounds, your LE is gonna be tricky to licence next time around - after all, it's a military battle rifle, readily convertable into a sn1per rifle. Come on, give us a break, I wouldn't be listening to that sort of sh1te talk myself. (I may be wrong but I very much hope not!)

Plus, last time I checked, most military sn1pers DO NOT USE the .308W; They would of course, for a start, be using the 7.62x51 NATO if running such a small itsy-bitsy round at all, as you know yourself :D. And pretty much, based on any information I can find, your average run-of-the-mill non-SF sn1per chappie will be running at least a .338 Lap Mag - and for the big-boys, the calibre of choice tends to be the .50BMG. Now, I'd be shocked, astounded, and surprised if someone tells me that Mr. SGT. Billy Bob Sn1per would prefer to rely on a mere .308W over and above one of these:

which really is a "sn1per rifle" and would already be pretty tricky to licence around these here parts.

All .308W rifles are sporting or target rifles, and let's not have anyone tell us otherwise (and at the very least, let's not be perpetuating such mythologies ourselves!):rolleyes::D

[RANT ENDS];)

:cool:

rowa

To be fair dcorbus the ban on centrefire pistols and other restrictions were rumours for a long time before the horrible dwarf actually drew up the law to ban/restrict them,
Rumours have a nasty habit of becoming law here.

dCorbus

I know, but there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy too.

When is a target or sporting rifle not a target or sporting rifle, and turns into a dreaded s rifle? Christ know's how the PTB's would phrase it, but I'd say it's pretty much down to the end-user for a start. Personally, I don't know diddly sh1t about concealment, observation, camoflage, etc etc etc and all the stuff a sn1per actually has to be skilled at over-and-above just the ability to pull a trigger. A sn1per can shoot, but a shooter most certainly and categorically is not a sn1per by any stretch of the imagination (walt imaginations excluded obviously:D).

There's a whole other thread waiting on this topic - but I for one will not be falling for it and giving any such ideas the oxygen of debate.

Sometimes, the sky really is falling AND sometimes, just sometimes, it's just the rain.;):D

bunny shooter

dCorbus all I will say is the lad I was talking to don't talk ****e

dCorbus

Grand so, if it's going to be as hard to licence as bolt-action target rifle in .308W as something a bit more exotic, feck it, I'm going to get one of these so:



May as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.

BTW that's an AI AS50, Semi-automatic, .50BMG, special-forces sn1per rifle. Which is, without a doubt, what could actually be termed a sn1per rifle. Coz it is one.

And still I want one!:D

(Of course, I will still maintain my civilian target shooting .308W target-rifle for sporting purposes too. Coz it isn't one).

rowa

But there is already an element of firearms being banned/restricted by type, i have heard of a good few .22 pistols being refused on the grounds they were "military or police type" how they arrive at that conclussion i do not know , but they don't seem too pushed about how to justify their decisions.

Back on topic , seeing as the le is by far the cheapest of the two rifles the op has mentioned , why not get one and try it , if it doesn't work out you'll always sell it on as the enfield is a popular fun gun.

dCorbus

And with my last post, I've good sooooooo far off the reservation that we is done gonna get us modded!!!!:D

(Ah crap, I've compounded the matter with a spot of back-seat moddy)

Ah, damnit, by pointing out my back-seat modding, I've further compounded the matter,

OMG this is like a feed-back loop................Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

(Sorry, as you were!)

(Apologies for the thread-derailment and the momentary loss of sanity. Normal services may now be restored).

dCorbus

rowa wrote: »

Back on topic , seeing as the le is by far the cheapest of the two rifles the op has mentioned , why not get one and try it , if it doesn't work out you'll always sell it on as the enfield is a popular fun gun.

Agree with that.

If the OP is not set on just one or the other, he should really cast his net wider.

But.....

Given only the choice between the two mentioned, and the purposes noted by the OP, the LE is a lot more bang-for-your-buck.;)

rowa

There was a batch of norwegian mauser k98's rebarreled in .308 released from the arsenal there a while ago , one of those would be a cracking dual use rifle.

dCorbus

rowa wrote: »

There was a batch of norwegian mauser k98's rebarreled in .308 released from the arsenal there a while ago , one of those would be a cracking dual use rifle.

Good looking bit of kit. Unrestricted. Plenty of Ammo choice. Not too costly to run. Nice action. Good calibre for both targets AND deer.

Now, that would be nice!

Arthur.

Funny you mentioned the Blaser Tackleberrywho. I was looking at that rifle (Blaser Tactical 2) a few months back (online I mean, not in person) and I was considering it. But I was talking to a few people back in the states about it and they seemed to favour the AI over it. But there for a while it was definitely one I was considering.

Dont mean to put you on the spot dCorbus, but I have looked at a few different rifles, and had limited down to the LE and AI but just cant decide on which one... heres what I was looking at, care to throw anymore suggestions out for me...

Blaser 2
Tikka T3 Tac
Unique Alpine
AI

Mauser K98
LE


BTW guys, maybe I didnt stress this enough at the start. Im not a very serious shooter, if its a sunny weekend and I have nothing else to do then I'll go out for a few shots. Im not looking to be competing in target competitions, or get one or two trophy deers every month. The only reason Im even spending so much time (and money) on a **good** rifle is because this is the last rifle Im going to be getting for a long long time. And I'd really like to get a decent rifle.

It wasn't me!

Of that lot, I'd have the Tikka. Best candidate to do it all. Go with the 24" barrel, skip the moderator and it's not too heavy, won't be too loud for comfort and will be pleasant enough to shoot and to carry.