New Entrants - New Appointees

DoubleEntry

Hello all,

A little background first.

I have just completed my PGDE, and have been luckily enough to have been offered a fixed term contract in a VEC school commencing the end of August.

Before my PGDE I had not worked as a teacher, but during my PGDE I did many substitute teaching classes (in a non VEC school - not sure if this matters) which were paid by the Dept. of Ed from September 2010 to June 2011.

And here is my point of confusion.

In June I read a circular on the ASTI website which explained what a 'new entrant' to teaching was for the purpose of the pay scale. I understood (rightly or wrongly...I am open to correction). That as I had been paid by the Dept. of Edu. prior to Jan 2011 for substitute teaching that I would not be considered a new entrant and enter pay scale on Point three of the pay scale. (Strangely I can't find this circular on their website any more)

However, a new circular from July on the ASTI website

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

refers to new entrants as 'new appointees' and explains that

" Where a person gave service in an analogous teaching position before 1
January 2011 (including those currently on an approved leave of absence),
s/he will not be regarded as a new appointee to teaching"

I am not sure if this is the same meaning as the previous 'new entrant' description.

My question is this, am I a new appointee for the purpose of the pay scale?
Am I likely to start on Point 1 or Point Three of the pay scale?


Your help would be much appreciated.
Thanks

DoubleEntry

Follow up on my first post here is a link to the ASTI note which went to all schools in June that I referred to in my first post

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/poster_re_school_paid_and_newly_appointed_teachers.doc

you will note the following

A teacher who has, prior to January 2011, given Department paid teaching service will not be regarded as a “new entrant”. Any teacher who has given such Department paid service, even, for example, as a short-term substitute teacher, is not a new entrant.

Is this now no longer the case following the July circular on new appointees, thoughts welcome but perhaps I should just ring the ASTI.

Thanks

small investor

Hi Im almost certain ur not a "new entrant" you were paid by the Dept already. Ring the Dept 2 morro and ask for the salary section. They will tell you. The best of luck with it, the new pay scale is a disaster. PG u will be on the old one.

Crazyteacher

Does that mean even if you only took one substitute class during the PGDE and got paid by the department that you are not a new entrant ?

An Bradán Feasa

If you weren't a qualified teacher when you subbed, you'll be classified as a new entrant.

whiteandlight

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

"I am a newly qualified teacher who has never worked as a substitute
teacher – Which pay scale will I start on?
Only service given in a teaching position pre-1 January 2011 will count as
prior service for eligibility for pre-2011 pay scales. If you have not served in a
teaching position (including as a substitute) before 1 January 2011 you will be
offered a contract at the new pay rates and conditions. You cannot receive
incremental credit for any training prior to entry to teaching. "

This is according to the questions and answers in the above document from July. No mention of unqualified having anything to do with it.

delta_bravo

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

If you weren't a qualified teacher when you subbed, you'll be classified as a new entrant.

There is no mention of qualification or teaching council status in the entire circular. I did the pgde this year, earned about 100 euro as a sub before the cutoff and it looks like it will be worth about five grand a year to me if I find work as I'll not be regarded as a new entrant

DoubleEntry

Thank you to all who have replied so far.

This certainly seems to be a complex area, and one which could have a huge difference with regards to pay.

I will call the ASTI tomorrow as advised and will post the outcome on this for all to be advised.

Any one else with any knowledge on this matter, or outcome from ASTI on this matter please post.

Thanks to all who have commented thus far.

Regards

OP

delta_bravo

You would be better ringing des payroll

DoubleEntry

delta_bravo wrote: »

You would be better ringing des payroll

Will do, thanks delta bravo.

whiteandlight

I have been privately employed for the last two years and this was clarified by our union rep. if we had ever been employed by the Department, substitution or otherwise then we were not classed as new entrants. There was no mention of qualified or not. Luckily I'm ok either way as I did one hour of department paid work year before last while qualified as the rest of my employment with them was unqualified. However honestly I have never heard of any mention of qualifed in relation to this so I'd say its ok.

rose23

I am in the same situation..I completed the PGDE this year and prior to that I covered two maternity leaves over a two year period.

When I rang ASTI to ask them if I would be classified as a new entrant they seemed to think that I wouldnt be, but couldnt say for sure. They said that the circular doesnt mention anything about qualified/unqualified. I was advised to hold out until my first pay check and to contact them then if I was classified as a new entrant.

Hope this helps!
Maybe the salaries section in the Dept of Ed could advise us more!

Rosita

I had a look at the websites of the two unions and both are vague on this question. The TUI one even has a Q&A section on the matter and oddly does not address this question which potentially could affect a lot of people. Perhaps this is because the Department has not really thought it through either and there is not a definitive answer. Or perhaps the failure to address this question is an official decision not to recognise formally a system that has kept many schools ticking over in recent years, i.e. the ad hoc employment of unqualified people for subbing and cover.

But the question goes back to a question implied in An Bradán Feasa's contribution - is a 'teacher' by definition only a qualified teacher? This is a key question beacsue in the circulars they use the term 'teacher' without defining it.

In reality, as we all know, there have been many many people teaching in schools in recent years who had not done the 'Dip', certainly if the numbers with significant teaching experience doing the Dip with me a few years back is a guide. Are they 'teachers'? And if so what are those who do the Dip? Well, yes, 'teachers' too obviously. But if there's no difference between the two what's the Dip about? And if there is a difference why is this not reflected in the terminology.

This is not a question designed to win friends or influence people, but should a person get significant financial credit in this case for unqualified experience in a school? Or to ask it another way, how - notwithstanding previous experience - can an NQT be anything other than a 'new entrant' if the Department and TC adhere strictly to the official position that only those with suitable qualifications and TC recognition are employable?

Miss Lockhart

The fact is, that like it or not, people have been considered qualified in the VEC sector with only a degree, provided it was approved by the TC (since their foundation). They have been paid the qualified rate.

Whether a distinction would be made for those having taught outside the VEC sector I don't know.

Edited to add: People have been able to register as qualified for the VEC sector with the TC. I don't see how such teaching service could be disregarded.

Rosita

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

The fact is, that like it or not, people have been considered qualified in the VEC sector with only a degree, provided it was approved by the TC (since their foundation). They have been paid the qualified rate.

Whether a distinction would be made for those having taught outside the VEC sector I don't know.

Edited to add: People have been able to register as qualified for the VEC sector with the TC. I don't see how such teaching service could be disregarded.

People already in employment back the years and regarded as qualified by the TC is a separate matter really. If you are regarded as qualified and in employment you can hardly be called a new entrant at a later stage. It an anomalous situation but one that exists anyway and certainly a can of worms that the government would not dream of opening.

Miss Lockhart

But 2010/2011 PGDE students who did any subbing in the VEC sector would also have been paid the qualified rate.

I know people that have been registering with the TC for the VEC sector only until very recently even though they have no hours at all.

Rosita

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

But 2010/2011 PGDE students who did any subbing in the VEC sector would also have been paid the qualified rate.

I know people that have been registering with the TC for the VEC sector only until very recently even though they have no hours at all.

I have no idea of being paid the 'qualified rate' confers any particular status on someone legally as a teacher given that they would have been paid the unqualified rate if they'd subbed in the school down the road instead.

The idea that someone can register with the TC for the VEC sector with no hours at all (and presumably no teaching qualification) is extraordinary. I had to do the PGDE and complete x number of probationary hours before being able to get full registration with the TC.

How foolish those, like myself, who spent 6/7k doing the PGDE and getting forms signed showing hours worked to get full TC recognition now appear when you consider that - under the system you describe - any third-level graduate* could apply for TC registration without even standing in a classroom (i.e. no hours at all) as long as they specified that it was for the VEC sector.

* To be honest, at this stage I'm half expecting to be told that teachers don't even have to be third-level graduates for the VECs!

Miss Lockhart

I agree, it is a crazy situation that they have allowed to develop.

But yes, until the full implementation of all of the TC Acts, it is possible to register with the TC, for the VEC sector only, with an approved degree - even without a PGDE or any teaching hours. You will not be given full registration, but Provisional Registration, until you complete the 300 teaching hours.

On the register the Education Sector will appear as "Post Primary (VEC Sector)" [as opposed to just "[B]Post Primary[/B]"] and the Registration Category will appear as "Conditional *(PQE)" [as opposed to "[B]Full[/B]"]

DoubleEntry

Thanks so much to all of you for your feedback and knowledge on this complex area.

Having spoken with the DES payroll department this morning they have confirmed that once you have worked in any school (including a VEC) regardless of whether or not you where qualified, you will not be deemed either a new entrant or new appointee and will enter the pay scale on point three.

In my case I am moving from being paid by the DES to being paid by the VEC and the DES further clarified that this will not cause the VEC to look at me as being a new entrant / new appointee as I have been previsouly paid by the DES. Vice versa for teachers moving from a VEC school to a non VEC school also.

The DES said that once you have a payroll number (as included on your p60 or payslips) that was active .i.e. used to pay you at least once before Jan 2011 you will not be deemed a new entrant / new appointee.

Hope this information helps people out.

An Bradán Feasa

I'm a primary school teacher and according to what our union (the INTO) says, any unqualified work done in a teaching capacity and paid for by the Department of Education will not count. I can only assume the same situation applies to the secondary sector. I can't see why it wouldn't. The OP also stated that the sub work was done in a non-VEC school so it would definitely be classed as unqualified subbing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it looks like the OP will be classified as a new entrant.

Loads of threads about this over at forum.educationposts.ie - well worth having a look.



Edited to add - people in payroll have been known to be wrong about all sorts of pay-related things before. Check with one or both of the secondary teachers unions, just to make sure.

Crazyteacher

A friend subbed in a vec in 2008 unqualified so she is not a new entrant ?

Rosita

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher and according to what our union (the INTO) says, any unqualified work done in a teaching capacity and paid for by the Department of Education will not count. I can only assume the same situation applies to the secondary sector. I can't see why it wouldn't. The OP also stated that the sub work was done in a non-VEC school so it would definitely be classed as unqualified subbing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it looks like the OP will be classified as a new entrant.

Loads of threads about this over at forum.educationposts.ie - well worth having a look.

Edited to add - people in payroll have been known to be wrong about all sorts of pay-related things before. Check with one or both of the secondary teachers unions, just to make sure.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but it seems that in Primary Teaching you are either qualified or you are not. That is clearcut. IHowever, in Post-Primary teaching it seems that potentially any Primary degree holder is 'qualified' - it just depends on the school they work in.

There might be a creative fudge going on with regard to Post-Primary teaching to allow for the absurd situation whereby depending on the sector a teaching qualification was/is not necessary. From a political/industrial relations perspective this is a situation where the authorities would probably prefer not to start separating the wheat from the chaff at this stage.

But if the claim that unqualified subbing counts is correct it is ludricous that someone's failure to chase a few hours subbing before 2011 could have such drastic and unforeseeable long-term financial consequences for them.

dambarude

Rosita wrote: »

But if the claim that unqualified subbing counts is correct it is ludricous that someone's failure to chase a few hours subbing before 2011 could have such drastic and unforeseeable long-term financial consequences for them.

That's the situation I'd be in (not having subbed before January). To say I'd be sickened if I found out colleagues with the same qualification, graduating at the same time would get much higher pay than me would be an understatement. Especially if they were subbing at a time when they really shouldn't have been subbing at all.

ed3

hey...
so i have a 4 year degree (2:1) and a 1 year masters (pass)
I have just completed my PGDE (1:1).
I carried out a lot of subbing on my Teaching Practice last Nov/Dec 2010.

So where does that leave me on the pay scale....will it be point 3/4 of the old one or point 3/4 of the new one?

I have a payroll number and all that from my subbing pay from last year!

any thoughts????

Cheers

dory

None of us have a clue to be honest, and it seems the Department isn't too sure either.

Honestly, there is no point worrying about it, and it only matters when we get a full-hours contract (very rare) and the Croke Park Agreement will have been through the shredder a few times before most new grads will have to worry about full time work*.



*Just my opinion, based on conversations with colleagues, don't shoot me for it!

ed3

hehe your right dory!

looksee

The situation in the VEC in Further Education is that people who were working before the TC came into being could be qualified in terms of having a degree, but having no teaching qualification. It was required to have practical, industry experience. Now they are required to have a teaching qualification, so the previous situation will eventually be phased out.

On this basis a person could be employed to teach, say, woodworking or hairdressing, or nursing - not unreasonable to consider someone with 10 or 20years of experience in the trade/profession to be just as suitable to teach a practical subject as someone straight out of college, they had probably been training apprentices for years.

I think you would find that most teachers of academic subjects in FE do actually have both good degrees, and teaching qualifications.

In practical subjects it will mean that preference will be given to people with teaching qualifications and a theoretical knowledge (ie degree) over someone with a degree and years of practical experience. Whether that is a good thing is open to debate. FE teaching is not the same as primary or secondary teaching.

People in this position are not qualified by the TC to teach anywhere other than FE, so they are not competing for places anywhere other than FE.

whiteandlight

ed3 wrote: »

hehe your right dory!

Honestly this board is the only place I have heard mention of qualified Vs unqualified. From my experience with the union rep, reading the literature etc if you have a payroll number that's it. As pointed out previously this is not the primary sector which is more cut and dried. I think most pgde students from this years courses would have covered at least one class before December so they'll be fine. Next septembers group will probably have a much greater group on the new scale

caoimhes

I know it's a whole year since the last post... Has anyone heard of anyone who had a payroll number from secondary teaching Pre 2011 being classified as a new entrant when they started primary teaching post jan 2011? Or vice versa?

thefasteriwalk

caoimhes wrote: »

I know it's a whole year since the last post... Has anyone heard of anyone who had a payroll number from secondary teaching Pre 2011 being classified as a new entrant when they started primary teaching post jan 2011? Or vice versa?

Um, how would you know if you were classed as a new entrant or not? Or what point of the pay scale you are on? Should it have been written on your payslip? Similarly, I completed my PGDE in 2010/2011 and had Dept. paid subbing pre-January 2011. I worked all of this year, but to be honest I was so happy to be earning that I didn't properly clarify any of this. Best to get onto payroll I suppose. It would be nice to hear from anyone from the 2010/2011 cohort who knows exactly where they stood with payroll this year...

Seanchai

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

If you weren't a qualified teacher when you subbed, you'll be classified as a new entrant.

This is incorrect.

Moody_mona

caoimhes wrote: »

I know it's a whole year since the last post... Has anyone heard of anyone who had a payroll number from secondary teaching Pre 2011 being classified as a new entrant when they started primary teaching post jan 2011? Or vice versa?

Yep, I subbed in primary pre 2011 and got a secondary contract post 2011, I am not a new entrant and am on the old scale. I got a printout of my service from the primary online claims system and sent it to post primary payroll to make sure I was on the old scale.

I have had the same payroll number the whole time.

caoimhes

Thank you so so much for that reply. Having got caught for 1100 Irish exam fee etc. I am delighted with this news! Fingers crossed that all goes ok and I don't get any hassle in the process! Thanks! X

spring21

I have the same dilema, i started to teach in Ireland this year in Feb, previously i taught in France for two years,Im fully registred with TC and I hold a Masters as well, so am I, a new entrant and will the teaching from France count here? Thank you.

thefasteriwalk

spring21 wrote: »

I have the same dilema, i started to teach in Ireland this year in Feb, previously i taught in France for two years,Im fully registred with TC and I hold a Masters as well, so am I, a new entrant and will the teaching from France count here? Thank you.

There was some clause about other EU member states, but I have no idea if that still stands. The masters will definitely make no difference.

caoimhes

spring21 wrote: »

I have the same dilema, i started to teach in Ireland this year in Feb, previously i taught in France for two years,Im fully registred with TC and I hold a Masters as well, so am I, a new entrant and will the teaching from France count here? Thank you.

It sounds like you need to have a payroll number from before 2011 to be on the old pay scale. Otherwise you will be on the new pay scale. Basically if you were paid by the government before 2011 you will be on the old pay scale. The experience from France might help to move you up the scale a couple of points but you'd be best talking to payroll themselves if you're already being paid?

thefasteriwalk

I'm sorry to say I think you're goosed. RE: p.8 of this circular

http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/cl0040_2011.pdf

thefasteriwalk

DoubleEntry wrote: »

Follow up on my first post here is a link to the ASTI note which went to all schools in June that I referred to in my first post

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/poster_re_school_paid_and_newly_appointed_teachers.doc

you will note the following

A teacher who has, prior to January 2011, given Department paid teaching service will not be regarded as a “new entrant”. Any teacher who has given such Department paid service, even, for example, as a short-term substitute teacher, is not a new entrant.

Is this now no longer the case following the July circular on new appointees, thoughts welcome but perhaps I should just ring the ASTI.

Thanks

Just to update you - I'm in the same situation: taught and was paid by Dept. prior to 2011 but only 'qualified' in June 2011. I rang the Dept. this morning and I'm on the third point of the old payscale.

Geologyrocks

thefasteriwalk
Do you qualify for the degree allowance too then?

thefasteriwalk

Geologyrocks wrote: »

thefasteriwalk
Do you qualify for the degree allowance too then?

Yeah, but I was getting my allowances all last year anyway. Just didn't realise they were at the old rate too. Did you not get yours?

Geologyrocks

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Yeah, but I was getting my allowances all last year anyway. Just didn't realise they were at the old rate too. Did you not get yours?

I taught in the UAE last year, qualified 2010, and subbed pre 2011...so I need to ring and find out what the story is with the allowances. I emailed a few months back and they said I would be on point 3 of the old scale when I came home but never got back to me when I asked about the allowances.

thefasteriwalk

Geologyrocks wrote: »

I taught in the UAE last year, qualified 2010, and subbed pre 2011...so I need to ring and find out what the story is with the allowances. I emailed a few months back and they said I would be on point 3 of the old scale when I came home but never got back to me when I asked about the allowances.

I'm sure you're grand. The allowances are in line with point of entry so you should get them no bother. My friend came back from UAE in June and I've told him he'll be grand and he entered at same point as me. It all about just having done that one dept. paid class pre-2011. I wouldn't worry. The only thing I'd say is if you haven't been paid by them since you qualified give them a ring when you start working and make sure they have all your TC stuff in place, it doesn't happen automatically. I spent the first ten weeks of last year on unqualified pay and no allowances without realising, but once I rang them with my TC number it was sorted in two weeks and I got my back pay and back allowances.

Geologyrocks

Thanks for that the thefasteriwalk. It wouldn't have actually crossed my mind about giving them the TC number!
Now all I have to do is get a job!

thefasteriwalk

Geologyrocks wrote: »

Thanks for that the thefasteriwalk. It wouldn't have actually crossed my mind about giving them the TC number!
Now all I have to do is get a job!

Me too Best of luck with it!

caoimhes

On the whole issue of allowances... I got an email from primary pay roll and they said that although I will be on the old pay scale (as I did unqualified subbing pre 2011), they couldn't say whether I would get any allowances. Does anyone else know out there?

Anyone returned to teaching post Feb 2012, on the old pay scale, but still not received the allowances?

I would have finished my degree when I did that subbing pre 2011 (I wonder if this makes any difference), but didn't finish the primary qualification until June 2012. I wouldn't have ever received that allowance for the degree at the time because I was unqualified, I imagine, so if I've never received that allowance before does that make me a new beneficiary (i.e. entitled to no allowances)?

Anyone else been in a similar situation?

All of this is totally hypothetical as I don't have a job... but I live in hope!!

bdoo

caoimhes wrote: »

On the whole issue of allowances... I got an email from primary pay roll and they said that although I will be on the old pay scale (as I did unqualified subbing pre 2011), they couldn't say whether I would get any allowances. Does anyone else know out there?

Anyone returned to teaching post Feb 2012, on the old pay scale, but still not received the allowances?

I would have finished my degree when I did that subbing pre 2011 (I wonder if this makes any difference), but didn't finish the primary qualification until June 2012. I wouldn't have ever received that allowance for the degree at the time because I was unqualified, I imagine, so if I've never received that allowance before does that make me a new beneficiary (i.e. entitled to no allowances)?

Anyone else been in a similar situation?

All of this is totally hypothetical as I don't have a job... but I live in hope!!

The word is that the review of allowances will be complete shortly and we will be told then.

I am working with a girl who is in this situation, she never bothered with s&s in her old school, wants to do it now - no pay!

Don't do it unless you're getting paid

dory

On a (ever so slightly) related note. Does anyone know what one needs to do to go up a point on the pay scale? Does any year of teaching count be it an RPT 11 hours, maternity, job share etc? Or something else? Thanks!

rainbowtrout

dory wrote: »

On a (ever so slightly) related note. Does anyone know what one needs to do to go up a point on the pay scale? Does any year of teaching count be it an RPT 11 hours, maternity, job share etc? Or something else? Thanks!

Any of those hours count as far as I know, but you have to complete a certain number of hours in a year to move up I think.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/IncrementalCredit/

From ASTI website:

Incremental credit?

Can I claim incremental credit for the time I spend teaching on a non-permanent basis?

Pro-rata contracted teachers can claim incremental credit for each year worked on a pro-rata contract.
Non-casual contracted teachers can claim an increment if they work 600 hours in one year.
To claim incremental credit, casual teachers must reach a threshold of 300 hours in any year. They will receive an increment for each 600 hours worked.

dory

Thanks, I've counted my hours and on a 13.40 hour contract X 40 weeks in a year I'll work 544 hours. So I may be able to get two increments if I get subbing during the year to bring me over 600. Is that to say that one could technically hop two steps in a year then? I presumed it would be one per year regardless of hours (once you're above a certain amount).

thefasteriwalk

Only one per year.

fade out

Saw this update about s+s 'Any teacher who, prior to February 1st, 2012, was in receipt of Department-paid salary may contract into the Supervision and Substitution scheme for the 2012/2013 school year and will receive Department payment for this.'

Just wondering if this applies to me...I only graduated this year but have been paid for sub work by dept since 2010.