DART-Airport Spur From Clongriffin

dubhthach

According to Frank McDonald in the Irish Times today (I posted link in other thread on Dart U and Metro N) Clongriffen spur is unlikely to go ahead.

Article in Irish times today:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0812/1224302301839.html

Metro North and Dart Underground 'deferred'
....

CIÉ’s proposal for a rail spur to Dublin airport from the Dart line at Clongriffin in north Dublin is also widely seen as a non-runner. “It’s a daft idea and the cost would be enormous,” one source said.


....

Ernest

“It’s a daft idea and the cost would be enormous,” one source said.

Thus, Frank McDonald dismisses the idea of the Clongriffin Spur to Dublin Airport.
McDonald doesn't bother to discuss the issue. No surprise there! After all, its not a tram and it's not in the south side of the city so he is not interested. His un-named "one source" is used to simply dismiss the idea as "daft" while the cost ( estimated at about €0.2 billion ) is dismissed as "enormous".

bk

Ernest wrote: »

Thus, Frank McDonald dismisses the idea of the Clongriffin Spur to Dublin Airport.
McDonald doesn't bother to discuss the issue. No surprise there! After all, its not a tram and it's not in the south side of the city so he is not interested. His un-named "one source" is used to simply dismiss the idea as "daft" while the cost ( estimated at about €0.2 billion ) is dismissed as "enormous".

But anyone with even a little knowledge of public transport knows it is a daft idea.

It has been discussed multiple times here on this thread why it is daft. Fortunately it seems no more discussion on this topic is needed.

BrianD

dubhthach wrote: »

According to Frank McDonald in the Irish Times today (I posted link in other thread on Dart U and Metro N) Clongriffen spur is unlikely to go ahead.

Article in Irish times today:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0812/1224302301839.html

He's right though - a daft idea based on a daft hypotheses that a bespoke rail link is required for the airport when none is.

cgcsb

I think everyone who has even the vaguest idea of what is going on would find it a daft idea. WE'd be paying 200 million euro to worsen our current service.

cgcsb

It actually worries me that the people in charge even entertained the notion, no matter how briefly.

BrianD

cgcsb wrote: »

It actually worries me that the people in charge even entertained the notion, no matter how briefly.

At the same time, I don't see any problem is marking out a route and preserving it. There could be some merit in having availability to use it in the future.- could be DART, could be other Irish Rail or even if an alignment was required to extend the Metro West. No harm in having it available.

coolperson05

DART Airport link - Overview

The proposal: A 7 kilometre spur from the DART line at Clongriffin to the Airport, delivering direct Airport to city centre DART services.

The service: A frequent, regular interval DART service in both directions from 05.00hrs to 01.00hrs, running from Airport to Bray/Greystones, serving all stations. Airport to city centre journey time of 25 minutes.

When, and how much? The line could be opened by 2016, and the investment would be €200 million approximately.

Who would benefit and use the service? It would benefit customers including:

- Customers travelling from the Greater Dublin area to the Airport

- Customers on the Intercity network arriving at Connolly (one change) or at Heuston (connect to Luas to Connolly, then DART to Airport)

- Air passengers arriving on flights to Dublin Airport

- Staff at Dublin Airport living on the DART and Commuter network, and those visiting places of business at the Airport


How would it connect with other rail services? Connections would be provided as follows:

- Direct service to all stations between Clongriffin and Bray/Greystones, serving locations such as the city centre, the Aviva Stadium and the IFSC directly.

- Connect to Portmarnock and Malahide, Northern commuter and Belfast Enterprise by changing at Clongriffin

- Connect to Red Line Luas and Heuston Station by changing at Connolly

- Connect to Intercity services to Sligo and Rosslare by changing at Connolly

Would we need more trains? A service every 15 minutes could be provided within the existing DART fleet.


Has a route been identified? The main alignment has been identified from Clongriffin to the Airport site, as it passes underneath the flightpath. This means that this land has not been developed, and the route could be built without impacting on commercial or residential interests, or other infrastructure.

Iarnród Éireann has commenced preliminary discussions with the Dublin Airport Authority to identify preferred alignments within the airport site.

Has a station location at the Airport been identified? Iarnród Éireann has commenced preliminary discussions with the Dublin Airport Authority to identify preferred alignments and a station location within the airport site. It is intended to ensure that a station location would serve both terminals.

What does it mean for existing DART and Commuter services? As Iarnród Éireann is currently undertaking a project to resignal the line from Clongriffin to Grand Canal Dock, which will be complete by 2013, this will increase the maximum number of trains to/from the city centre from 12 trains per hour in each direction to 20 trains per hour in each direction.

Therefore, DART trains every 15 minutes in each direction to/from the Airport could be accommodated while leaving scope for further expansion on other routes.

What does this mean for DART Underground? The DART Airport link complements the goal of DART Underground to achieve a high frequency connected network.

Should the DART Airport link be developed, the subsequent development of DART Underground would deliver direct DARTs from the Airport to Heuston Station via Spencer Dock, Pearse Station, St Stephen’s Green and Christchurch, linking Intercity, DART, Commuter and Luas together.

What happens next? Iarnród Éireann has commissioned AECOM to produce a Business Case for the DART Airport link, subject to Department of Transport guidelines and criteria.

This will be completed later in August 2011, and will be submitted to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, and the National Transport Authority. A decision by the Government on capital investment priorities is expected this Autumn.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=1180&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

The plan direct from Irish Rail themselves (No mention of a Swords P&R...)

cgcsb

BrianD wrote: »

At the same time, I don't see any problem is marking out a route and preserving it. There could be some merit in having availability to use it in the future.- could be DART, could be other Irish Rail or even if an alignment was required to extend the Metro West. No harm in having it available.

agreed it'd definitely be a great metro west alignment.

AngryLips

Isn't this a service that will come at the expense of other northbound services? As it stands northbound trains have two possible termini; Malahide and Howth. With the airport spur there will then be three ...and if the Maynooth line is turned into a Dart service then you're talking four possible final destinations for northbound services. Each new additional destination will come at the expense of the other unless the frequency of services are increased.

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

Isn't this a service that will come at the expense of other northbound services? As it stands northbound trains have two possible termini; Malahide and Howth. With the airport spur there will then be three ...and if the Maynooth line is turned into a Dart service then you're talking four possible final destinations for northbound services. Each new additional destination will come at the expense of the other unless the frequency of services are increased.

Yes the airport-clongriffin thing would result in a termination of all Howth services, possibly being replaced with a shuttle service, i.e. pointless. It would also mean an increase in the Dublin-Belfast journey time and there will only be room on the airport line for 4 trains per hour, that's it, no room for expansion, and the journey time to Tara st would be slower than some express bus services.

So basically we'd be paying €200m to make our transport network worse and more over crowded.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes the airport-clongriffin thing would result in a termination of all Howth services, possibly being replaced with a shuttle service, i.e. pointless. It would also mean an increase in the Dublin-Belfast journey time and there will only be room on the airport line for 4 trains per hour, that's it, no room for expansion, and the journey time to Tara st would be slower than some express bus services.

So basically we'd be paying €200m to make our transport network worse and more over crowded.

With respect it would not terminate the Howth services. It would still exist. There would be a Howth/Howth Junction shuttle off-peak, and you could still have direct services at peak times to/from Howth. Why is a Howth/Howth Junction shuttle pointless? It would give consistent services to/from Clongriffen and the Airport and on the Howth branch rather than the mish mash that is there now, and tbh should have happened some time back. In fact you could have 4 connecting services per hour between Howth Junction and Howth and v.v. which is more than the branch has at present.

Frankly with half-hourly commuter services, Malahide/Portmarnock can probably cope with those off-peak also but would still retain peak time direct DART services.

It would not affect Belfast timings either you would have some additional slots due to the line being resignalled thus improving headways between trains.

While I respect the fact that you are not in favour of this proposal, you are putting out false and misleading information. There would be room for the four existing 15 minute DART services to/from the airport plus extra services if required given the additional headways provided by the resignalling.

dubhthach

Today's paper, talking bout it on Morning Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0902/1224303348824.html

Dart airport link cheaper than metro, report says

FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

A DART spur to Dublin airport from the existing north line at Clongriffin would cost €200 million – a fraction of estimates for Metro North – and deliver an “exceptionally high” economic return, according to consultants for Iarnród Éireann.

The railway company has submitted a business case for the seven-kilometre link to Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar and the National Transport Authority, with a view to having it included in the Government’s revised capital programme.

The business case, prepared by AECOM and Goodbody Economic Consultants, found the project would deliver economic benefits of up to €1 billion – or nearly five times its cost, excluding Vat.

The consultants forecast the number of passengers travelling by Dart would increase by 9.4 million passengers per annum.

This would result in an almost 50 per cent increase over current use of Dart services.

It would attract “substantial day-long demand” and yield “significant tourism, business and environmental benefits”.

Fare revenue would “comfortably exceed operating costs” and the airport link would also complement the Dart underground project.

The report notes that Dublin Airport is a “major source of employment and trip-making”, comparable in scale to a substantial urban area. Employment in its environs is predicted to rise to 20,000 persons and the number of passengers to 38 million a year by 2030.

The proposed Dart link would be largely in greenfield, thus minimising both capital costs and disruption during the construction phase. It would enable direct services between the airport to the city centre and all stations to Greystones.

Other locations that would be served include the Aviva Stadium at Lansdowne Road, the National Convention Centre and IFSC. The link would also connect with the Dart lines to Malahide and Howth, the Luas Red Line, mainline rail services and Busáras.

The alignment from Clongriffin would pass underneath the airport’s main flight path and, as the consultants note, this land has not been developed for safety reasons. Thus, the link could be built “without impacting on commercial or residential interests”.

Equally, however, the proposed Dart spur would not serve any community along the way; indeed, no intermediate stations are envisaged. Nor would the significant population of Swords be served.

Iarnród Éireann said yesterday it “has commenced preliminary discussions with the Dublin Airport Authority to identify preferred alignments and station locations within the airport site”, but gave no indication whether tunnelling would be required.

kilkenny31

I think 9.4 million is a bit pie in the sky.. Given that its almost half the amount of people who are using the airport at the moment. It might not be a terrible idea tho if the new luas line goes ahead too. The construction would stimulate the Dublin economy and create jobs but if this is built you can probably wave goodbye to metro north in its current form. It would be hard to justify the metro going anywhere near the airport if this is built!

dubhthach

kilkenny31 wrote: »

I think 9.4 million is a bit pie in the sky.. Given that its almost half the amount of people who are using the airport at the moment. It might not be a terrible idea tho if the new luas line goes ahead too. The construction would stimulate the Dublin economy and create jobs but if this is built you can probably wave goodbye to metro north in its current form. It would be hard to justify the metro going anywhere near the airport if this is built!

They kept saying that it would increase Dart usage by 50% the problem is though does capacity exist to cater for such an increase?

Cool Mo D

9.4 million may be reasonable, because the airport is the largest employer in North Dublin, so 9.4 million trips per year is about 15,000 daily commuters and about 2 million yearly visitors. Does seem a lot, but not totally ridiculous. I imagine that a park and ride station on the M1 would also form a part of the line.

The problem is capacity on the line. To make an airport DART work, you need 4-tracking between Connolly and Clongriffin. Then the airport service could run express in about 10 minutes to the city, as well as giving big improvements to trains from Drogheda and Belfast. Really, DART underground would be needed too, to tie it altogether. The airport line should not happen without these.

lucernarian

And a significant proportion of the staff who work there won't exactly be living along this DART line. *cough*Swords*cough*

In a whole variety of situations, people pick Dublin Bus over Dart on parallel routes for reasons of cost, convenience etc. In the case of the Airport, the bus will be quicker too. (though not necessarily cheaper with the airport coach ticket prices as they are) And building a link like this will not significantly increase public transport usage to the airport I think. The people who'll use it are those who would have taken the bus from places near the Dublin rail network but can now take the dart.

I'm truly amazed though that they think they could build this for €200 million when a certain 8-lane Motorway lies between Clongriffin and the airport...

I don't think DART has the capacity for that sort of increase at peak times. The ongoing resignalling won't increase DART capacity through the city centre by as much as 50% anyway.

antoobrien

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't think DART has the capacity for that sort of increase at peak times. The ongoing resignalling won't increase DART capacity through the city centre by as much as 50% anyway.

Do the peak times of airport usage (departures and arrivals) & staff changes (i.e. start & end of shifts) coincide with the current dart peaks?

While capacity on the line is one serious consideration, will the line be open for peak capacities is another (e.g 6 am flights to LHR).

cgcsb

the article is an ignorant piece of populist propaganda. I have very serious doubts that the 'consultants' at IÉ have done a tap of homework if they genuinely believe that this is a good idea. The whole "it's cheaper than metro north" thing is just silly because the two projects are not even slightly alike.

This project costs €200m (optimistically) and it serves one stop on the metro north route, it has a journey time to Tara street of 35mins(slower than the bus), it has a maximum capacity of 4 trains per hour and it will have a damaging effect on current northern line services which are already over capacity at peak time.

So we're paying 200mil for a worse service than we already have, it's amazing how such a positive spin can be put on such a negative thing. The article makes it sound as if this is the first time that a an airport dart service has been proposed. It's been thought of before and it has been laughed at with good cause.

Now don't get me wrong, if we had DART Underground and quad tracking it would be a great connection to the airport for people living along the DART line, however, as a city centre-airport link it is utterly useless.

Proposing it as a sort of metro north alternative, is just playing the "ah sure it'll do them" game with the cultchies. All the while the Tralee bypass opens and plans for a 500mil motorway to the village of Tuam go plowing ahead.

Sponge Bob

cgcsb wrote: »

Proposing it as a sort of metro north alternative, is just playing the "ah sure it'll do them" game with the cultchies. All the while the Tralee bypass opens and plans for a 500mil motorway to the village of Tuam go plowing ahead.

What utter tosh. More than half the cabinet is in Dublin and this is a Dunlin scheme. The fact that it is half baked ( absent quad track from Clongriffin to Connolly is because a CIE Board based in Dublin approved an engineering scheme designed by their own staff in Dublin.

Veradkar cancelled most road schemes a month back, none in Dublin as it happens where M1 and M50 widening schemes are progressing...one north of the Airport next year.

It is a mickey mouse half based Dublin conceived and based scheme, nothing to do with anyone west of Blanchardstown.

Jack Noble

cgcsb wrote: »

the article is an ignorant piece of populist propaganda. I have very serious doubts that the 'consultants' at IÉ have done a tap of homework if they genuinely believe that this is a good idea. The whole "it's cheaper than metro north" thing is just silly because the two projects are not even slightly alike.

This project costs €200m (optimistically) and it serves one stop on the metro north route, it has a journey time to Tara street of 35mins(slower than the bus), it has a maximum capacity of 4 trains per hour and it will have a damaging effect on current northern line services which are already over capacity at peak time.

So we're paying 200mil for a worse service than we already have, it's amazing how such a positive spin can be put on such a negative thing. The article makes it sound as if this is the first time that a an airport dart service has been proposed. It's been thought of before and it has been laughed at with good cause.

Now don't get me wrong, if we had DART Underground and quad tracking it would be a great connection to the airport for people living along the DART line, however, as a city centre-airport link it is utterly useless.

Proposing it as a sort of metro north alternative, is just playing the "ah sure it'll do them" game with the cultchies. All the while the Tralee bypass opens and plans for a 500mil motorway to the village of Tuam go plowing ahead.

I actually think it's a PR game from Irish Rail to get what they really want - the €175m for the upgrade of the inter-city lines to 160kph.

Think about it - what chance have IE got of getting €375m for two major projects from a govt that is cutting back capital spending?

And if Leo is going to secure money for a major IE project, which is the Cabinet more likely to approve and which is more 'sellable' to the public sick of cuts and tax rises - a €200m Dart spur that only serves a limited number of people or €175m upgrade of major parts of the national network which will deliver faster journey times between Dublin and the other main cities?

There have been three Irish Times reports this week on IE plans - two on the intercity upgrade and this one on the Dart spur. Anyone think Frank is being played by the lads in Connolly?

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Veradkar cancelled most road schemes a month back, none in Dublin as it happens where M1 and M50 widening schemes are progressing...one north of the Airport next year.

In fairness those schemes aren't new and most of the M50 is done, it'd be crazy not to complete it.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

This project costs €200m (optimistically) and it serves one stop on the metro north route, it has a journey time to Tara street of 35mins(slower than the bus), it has a maximum capacity of 4 trains per hour and it will have a damaging effect on current northern line services which are already over capacity at peak time.

To put this in context, I recently got Aircoach from the Airport to Dun Laoghaire in just 40 mins at 7pm.

I see this and the idea of upgrading the intercity rail lines as nothing but a desperate attempt by IR to remain relative and to try to soften the blow of coming reductions in their subsidies.

Zebra3

Jack Noble wrote: »

I actually think it's a PR game from Irish Rail to get what they really want - the €175m for the upgrade of the inter-city lines to 160kph.

It's about killing off MN imo.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

To put this in context, I recently got Aircoach from the Airport to Dun Laoghaire in just 40 mins at 7pm.

I see this and the idea of upgrading the intercity rail lines as nothing but a desperate attempt by IR to remain relative and to try to soften the blow of coming reductions in their subsidies.

I can see the sense in upgrading the intercity lines. I would want to see what their EXACT plans for the money are first though.

Sponge Bob

The sum total of every IE plan in the last 60 years is that Intercity travel is no faster now than it was shortly after WW2 when they fully switched back to Coal from Turf.

To paraphrase Bertie, much spent and **** all done

D.L.R.

Incredible how behind the curve Irish Rail and the Irish media are. We already killed this weeks ago.

Just goes to show how sloooooow the gears of power are in this state. Rep. of Ireland is largely a bunch of old farts waffling at each other. All bleedin talk.

kilkenny31

D.L.R. wrote: »

Incredible how behind the curve Irish Rail and the Irish media are. We already killed this weeks ago.

Just goes to show how sloooooow the gears of power are in this state. Rep. of Ireland is largely a bunch of old farts waffling at each other. All bleedin talk.

Ye to be fair this probably wont happen. Its just Irish Rail trying to capitalise from the fact that metro north is going to be put on hold. But if this is built its effectively the government saying metro north wont ever be built.

dowlingm

I'm hoping IE are making a play here where Interconnector and the Airport link are dismissed but they get Maynooth electrification, completion of KRP2 and some Cork-Dublin relaying funding as "compensation". The way things are going they could get less than that.

D.L.R.

kilkenny31 wrote: »

Ye to be fair this probably wont happen.

Exactly, so its just a waste of time and money 'formalising' what is already common sense.

Hey while we're at it lets have a big expensive consult into a bullet train to Achill Island.

I tell ye, consultants are Ireland's aristocracy. Waffle sells, and I'm not talking potatoes.