What's the differences between the RDF, TA and US National Guard ?

HellsAngel

Well not trying to belittle anyone or do a bit of self bashing ( although their is understandably plenty of that around thanks to the economy etc :rolleyes: ) but what are the differences Ireland's Reserve, British Territorial Army and the US National Guard ( Army only). From the odd person I have spoke to who were in the British TA, it didn't seem a whole lot different from our Reserve ?

For example, the training, do those in the TA train alongside the reguliar army like the US NG (National Guard) ? How many weeks of training and weekends or whatever a year must they attend etc Ok I know it's all a bit vague from my end, but my knowledge would be far from you guys, so, what's the comparision between the 3 like ?

Manic Moran

National Guard (and, generally speaking, US Army Reserve):

Mandatory basic training/skills course attendance at the Regular Army schools. Full integration at these courses, the make-up of any particular recruit platoon will be split about half reservist, half regular army.

Equal standards of proficiency required for all events and tests.

Mandatory attendance at regularly scheduled training events. Absences by authorised exception only. Enforceable to the extent of issuing arrest warrants if you don't show up.

All work/training is in a paid status, including that done outside of the minimum weekend a month/two weeks a year. (Except some of the paperwork, that's unavoidable on your own time).

Full civilian employment protection for any event on a paid status, including those you volunteer to do.

Eligible for pension and other retiree benefits after twenty good years of service (May not draw until aged 60 or so). Size of pension dependant upon amount of service.

NTM

muppet01

Two of the above dont spend a wet weekend roaming around a sheep infested mountain...........................:D

LondonIrish90

The Territorial Army are an under trained, under equipped, inefficient bunch of weekend warriors for the most part. A staggeringly small number are fit for duty on the front line in Afghanistan. Of course there are some truly brave, professional and extremely skilled soldiers in their ranks but as whole they are simply not capable of providing the levels of soldiering needed to implement British policy in warzones. Nor can they be expected to be.

They are also the future of the British Army. By 2020 their ranks will have swolen while the regular forces will see humiliating, disgraceful cuts continue. Britain's military is being ravaged by the British government. Dr Liam Fox and David Cameron are traitors to the military, conservative ideals, and the UK as a whole.

Still, at least weekend warriors do not cost as much sustain. Britain is slowly becoming a third or even fourth rate military power. The TA are a sorry replacement for regular troops.

The Taliban need not prepare for any more armed conflict with Britain, they need to just wait a few more years while the British government rip the army to pieces. A once proud nation, on its knees. Weeping. Defeat looms - unavoidable and all encompassing. Great Britain is no more.

Anyway, those are my views on the TA and their standing in the British Army, I'd be interested to know how they compare to views of the RDF

Manic Moran

Speaking of TA abroad, there's another difference: TA personnel tend to be deployed on an individual augmentee basis, whilst Guardsmen are deployed as units.

NTM

LondonIrish90

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

The Territorial Army are an under trained, under equipped, inefficient bunch of weekend warriors for the most part. A staggeringly small number are fit for duty on the front line in Afghanistan. Of course there are some truly brave, professional and extremely skilled soldiers in their ranks but as whole they are simply not capable of providing the levels of soldiering needed to implement British policy in warzones. Nor can they be expected to be.

They are also the future of the British Army. By 2020 their ranks will have swolen while the regular forces will see humiliating, disgraceful cuts continue. Britain's military is being ravaged by the British government. Dr Liam Fox and David Cameron are traitors to the military, conservative ideals, and the UK as a whole.

Still, at least weekend warriors do not cost as much sustain. Britain is slowly becoming a third or even fourth rate military power. The TA are a sorry replacement for regular troops.

The Taliban need not prepare for any more armed conflict with Britain, they need to just wait a few more years while the British government rip the army to pieces. A once proud nation, on its knees. Weeping. Defeat looms - unavoidable and all encompassing. Great Britain is no more.

Anyway, those are my views on the TA and their standing in the British Army, I'd be interested to know how they compare to views of the RDF

What dealings have you had with the TA may I ask?! The vast majority I've had dealings with who have been in for over 18 months have put in a tour of either Afghan or Iraq. Are you in the Forces by the way?

iceage

Thats a bit stiff Londonirish90 isn't it? True the TA are to receive a major boost in the arm that will fund to train and equip them to fill the void that will be left by the savaging that the regulars are going to take from those who should know better..I detect the old stab attitude me thinks?

Again the numbers don't add up though, 36000 TA mentioned but how many are actually ready to serve as front line right now, or would be even in 6 month? This is without doubt a stick your finger in the hole tactic til we come up with more readies from Cameron and his mob while they try and sell some more family silver so to speak.

As far as the RDF is concerned..There's a few ACF units consisting of 15 year olds in the UK that I know that could show em a thing or two! but that's just my 2 cent! :P...

SIRREX

Deleted User wrote: »

What dealings have you had with the TA may I ask?! The vast majority I've had dealings with who have been in for over 18 months have put in a tour of either Afghan or Iraq. Are you in the Forces by the way?

While i agree LondonIrish was a bit over the top, it is true that the official figures quoted in the weekend papers stated that only 1 in 10 of the TA are deployable. Although it doesn't say whether this a failure to meet standards, employment release problems etc.

xflyer

The RDF are an under trained, under equipped, inefficient bunch of weekend warriors for the most part. A staggeringly small number are fit for duty on the front line anywhere. Of course there are some truly brave, professional and extremely skilled soldiers in their ranks but as whole they are simply not capable of providing the levels of soldiering needed to implement Irish policy. Nor can they be expected to be.

They are also not the future of the Irish Army. By 2020 their ranks will have reduced while the regular forces will see humiliating, disgraceful cuts continue. Ireland's military was always ravaged by the Irish government.

Still, at least weekend warriors do not cost as much sustain. Ireland is isn't even a third or even fourth rate military power. The RDF are a sorry replacement for regular troops. Successive Irish governments have betrayed this county in more ways than one.

Anyway, those are my views on the RDF and their standing in the Irish Army, I'd be interested to know how they compare to views of the TA

Thanks LondonIrish, I've rewritten your piece to suit the RDF's situation.

The problem of course for both the TA and the RDF is not the quality of the men or women but the training and resources given to them. It's the same of any military force.

The model we should be looking at is the US system. But then again the American philosophy is more that of a citizen army, a militia if you will.

HellsAngel

Manic Moran wrote: »

National Guard (and, generally speaking, US Army Reserve):

Mandatory basic training/skills course attendance at the Regular Army schools. Full integration at these courses, the make-up of any particular recruit platoon will be split about half reservist, half regular army.

Equal standards of proficiency required for all events and tests.

Mandatory attendance at regularly scheduled training events. Absences by authorised exception only. Enforceable to the extent of issuing arrest warrants if you don't show up.

All work/training is in a paid status, including that done outside of the minimum weekend a month/two weeks a year. (Except some of the paperwork, that's unavoidable on your own time).

Full civilian employment protection for any event on a paid status, including those you volunteer to do.

Eligible for pension and other retiree benefits after twenty good years of service (May not draw until aged 60 or so). Size of pension dependant upon amount of service.

NTM

"Enforceable to the extent of issuing arrest warrants if you don't show up." :eek: Wow, that's the real deal, Uncle Sam doesn't mess about !!!! Must say the benefits aren't bad.

So after 2/3 months professional training the NG are back into civie street. So then what do they have to do for the next few years, two week camp every summer and a weekend every month ?

HellsAngel

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

The Territorial Army are an under trained, under equipped, inefficient bunch of weekend warriors for the most part. A staggeringly small number are fit for duty on the front line in Afghanistan. Of course there are some truly brave, professional and extremely skilled soldiers in their ranks but as whole they are simply not capable of providing the levels of soldiering needed to implement British policy in warzones. Nor can they be expected to be.

They are also the future of the British Army. By 2020 their ranks will have swolen while the regular forces will see humiliating, disgraceful cuts continue. Britain's military is being ravaged by the British government. Dr Liam Fox and David Cameron are traitors to the military, conservative ideals, and the UK as a whole.

Still, at least weekend warriors do not cost as much sustain. Britain is slowly becoming a third or even fourth rate military power. The TA are a sorry replacement for regular troops.

The Taliban need not prepare for any more armed conflict with Britain, they need to just wait a few more years while the British government rip the army to pieces. A once proud nation, on its knees. Weeping. Defeat looms - unavoidable and all encompassing. Great Britain is no more.

Anyway, those are my views on the TA and their standing in the British Army, I'd be interested to know how they compare to views of the RDF

So, the TA are a bunch of sandbaggers run by Captain Mainwaring and Corporal Jones " Don't panic, don't panic, don't panic "

Manic Moran

Wow, that's the real deal, Uncle Sam doesn't mess about !!!!

I've done it. Turned out to be easier than I thought, I just write out the warrant, sign it, scan it, email it to the appropriate police force. The cops were knocking on the guy's door in 45 minutes. (I almost spent more time on the 'phone with dispatcher trying to explain that what I was commanding them to do was above board than on the process itself).

So then what do they have to do for the next few years, two week camp every summer and a weekend every month ?

Pretty much, though it varies a little (I've seen annual camp last three weeks). It's more like 4-6 months of initial full-time training, though. 3 months will just get you through Basic, not AIT (skills course).

NTM

OS119

SIRREX wrote: »

While i agree LondonIrish was a bit over the top, it is true that the official figures quoted in the weekend papers stated that only 1 in 10 of the TA are deployable. Although it doesn't say whether this a failure to meet standards, employment release problems etc.

that 'deployable' word is fabulous - Sir Humphrey would love it...

its probably true that 10% are instantly (ish) deployable, but my own experience suggests that another 50% are deployable in role with variable, but reasonanble lengths of build-up training. the rest would, in my view, be evenly split between those to old or unfit to be deployable but still useful as 'enablers', and those with so little training (caused by the training/deployment tempo of the 'established' soldiers) who would only really be of use in the rear area force protection role.

i doubt that 1000 of the 35,000 current members of the TA are actually useless, some more may not be much use right now, and more may not be useful in one, narrowly defined role, but by no stretch of the imagination should 'not immediately deployable' equal 'useless'.

OS119

OS119 wrote: »

that 'deployable' word is fabulous - Sir Humphrey would love it...

its probably true that 10% are instantly (ish) deployable, but my own experience suggests that another 50% are deployable in role with variable, but reasonanble lengths of build-up training. the rest would, in my view, be evenly split between those to old or unfit to be deployable but still useful as 'enablers', and those with so little training (caused by the training/deployment tempo of the 'established' soldiers) who would only really be of use in the rear area force protection role.

i doubt that 1000 of the 35,000 current members of the TA are actually useless, some more may not be much use right now, and more may not be useful in one, narrowly defined role, but by no stretch of the imagination should 'not immediately deployable' equal 'useless'.

Bingo! That number of 1000 bods are the people who are currently MATTS qualified via Chilwell. In my unit alone, the vast majority if guys are deployable (and most have deployed). Even if I take the example of myself, I've finished my alpha and bravo training (ie. deployable) but since I haven't been to the RTMC at Chilwell I would be non-deployable according to the figures given. That is even though I'm beginning my pre-deployment training.

As for the TA only giving augmenters, that isn't strictly true. Platoons and companies have been sent as a oner. This was more common in 06/07 than now!

Lockstep

Manic Moran wrote: »

National Guard (and, generally speaking, US Army Reserve):

Mandatory basic training/skills course attendance at the Regular Army schools. Full integration at these courses, the make-up of any particular recruit platoon will be split about half reservist, half regular army.

Equal standards of proficiency required for all events and tests.

Mandatory attendance at regularly scheduled training events. Absences by authorised exception only. Enforceable to the extent of issuing arrest warrants if you don't show up.

All work/training is in a paid status, including that done outside of the minimum weekend a month/two weeks a year. (Except some of the paperwork, that's unavoidable on your own time).

Full civilian employment protection for any event on a paid status, including those you volunteer to do.

Eligible for pension and other retiree benefits after twenty good years of service (May not draw until aged 60 or so). Size of pension dependant upon amount of service.

NTM

That sounds like a fairly decent system. More what I was hoping the RDF would be like.

r3nu4l

Don't forget that within the UK reserves is the 23 SAS regiment.

Those guys do the same selection course as the 22 SAS and probably wouldn't appreciate being called weekend warriors Michael Asher (author of Shoot to Kill) was a former member of 2 Para before joining the 23 SAS and then moving onto the RUC Special Patrol Group.

Applicants to 23 SAS do not need to have previous military experience but apparently, many do.

HellsAngel

r3nu4l wrote: »

Don't forget that within the UK reserves is the 23 SAS regiment.

Those guys do the same selection course as the 22 SAS and probably wouldn't appreciate being called weekend warriors Michael Asher (author of Shoot to Kill) was a former member of 2 Para before joining the 23 SAS and then moving onto the RUC Special Patrol Group.

Applicants to 23 SAS do not need to have previous military experience but apparently, many do.

Michael Asher, didn't he write the Real Bravo Two Zero showing up Chris Ryan and Andy McNab's accounts as fairytales ?? I think he's also done a few documentry's on Nomadic tribes and how they survive in the desert etc

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

Michael Asher, didn't he write the Real Bravo Two Zero showing up Chris Ryan and Andy McNab's accounts as fairytales ??

thats him - he's a throbber of the highest order with a personality defect. he seems to have done the round of every 'warry' unit in the British state and then slagged each one down while moving on to the next one.

every unit has its failings, but what a remarkable coincidence that the Para's, them, and whatever RUC outfit he was in had not a single redeaming feature: you might almost be forgiven for believing the problem was the thing they had in common.

him.

HellsAngel

OS119 wrote: »

thats him - he's a throbber of the highest order with a personality defect. he seems to have done the round of every 'warry' unit in the British state and then slagged each one down while moving on to the next one.

every unit has its failings, but what a remarkable coincidence that the Para's, them, and whatever RUC outfit he was in had not a single redeaming feature: you might almost be forgiven for believing the problem was the thing they had in common.

him.

Well we're getting a bit off topic, but curiosity got the better of me so I looked up customer reviews of Shoot to Kill on Amazon and most of the reviews are positive about it. Seems to be worth a read to be honest and not the " I killed 5 terrorists with a flick of the wrist " type of stuff from Chris Ryan and McNab etc -

" This is an interesting and at times uncomfortable book. Michael Asher takes us from his joining of the British Paratroop Regiment (and service in Northern Ireland) through service with the SAS and the Police Special Patrol Group, again based in Northern Ireland.....Starting off as a typical story of the tough training recruits go though in one of the British Army's toughest regiments, once the author reaches Belfast, things turn uncomfortable for him and for the reader. "

http://www.amazon.com/Shoot-Kill-Michael-Asher/product-reviews/0140115722/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

HellsAngel

Does anyone know much about reservists in other armies besides us, the US and Britain ? I'd say most of them are probably sandbaggers but I'd imagine that say, Germany who be a serious enough outfit on the lines of the National Guard ?

r3nu4l

We're going way off topic PM sent to OS119 and HellsAngel

Jim2007

An important point to note about the US National Guard, is the reason for joining up - money! In addition there used to be a 20K cash bonus for signing up.

Many people joined up, simply because it was seen as a way to get cash to pay back student loans, the down payment for a decent place to live, seed money to start their own business, better health care and so on. The majority of the guard come from the low income sectors of the states. Little did they realise the personal cost of such a commitment - they never expected to spend time in a war zone.

Jim.

Manic Moran

Little did they realise the personal cost of such a commitment - they never expected to spend time in a war zone.

That information is (a ) out of date (Nobody in the Guard today is on a term of enlistment dating back to before the deployments), and (b ), not entirely accurate. Take my unit as an example: Almost nobody in my unit lives where the unit is. I drive over six hours to get there, the vast majority drive over 90 minutes. If all we cared about was money, we would be training at a local unit, and believe me, there are plenty to choose from, and they're all 'easier' jobs than being a line cavalry troop. People are in my unit because they want to be cavalry troopers, not because they joined just for money or education benefits etc. A Private First Class in the cavalry gets just as much pay as a PFC mechanic.

NTM

baalthor

In the US, there are also State Defense Forces

HellsAngel

baalthor wrote: »

In the US, there are also State Defense Forces

Very interesting - State Defense Forces (SDF) (also known as State Guards, State Military Reserves, or State Militias) in the United States are military units that operate under the sole authority of a state government; they are partially regulated by the National Guard Bureau but they are not a part of the Army National Guard of the United States. Community Emergency Response Teams (CERTs) are being organized by several SDFs by utilizing training offered by the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Citizen Corps.

" Weapons qualification and training is provided in some of the SDFs. However, most SDFs lack sufficient training standards to maintain proficiency in weapons utilization. "

So they seem to be more like the Civil Defense or something like it in Ireland. I suppose they serve quite a good civil function when a hurricane rips up one of the southern states or some similiar disaster.

ruserious

The NSR which is part of the RDF here, gets to go on operational patrols with their PDF counterparts and a high level of integration exists in the lower ranks.