LC grades: why no percentages?

Naikon

Seriously, I can't understand why you aren't just given an overall percentage mark. 69.75 ain't very far away from 70, yet you could stand to lose a college place. Still, that is how the CAO works I guess.

Sunny!!

i was told by a couple of teachers that correct the exams that anyone that gets a grade like that they will try and bring you up anyway:)

BeanbagBallbag

Naikon wrote: »

Seriously, I can't understand why you aren't just given an overall percentage mark. 69.75 ain't very far away from 70, yet you could stand to lose a college place. Still, that is how the CAO works I guess.

The CAO don't have anything to do with correcting exams. The SEC corrects them based on the marks for a paper. For your example, for say English, you need 70% of 400 marks to get 70% ~ 280 marks, 279 marks is not 70%.

EuropeanSon

Naikon wrote: »

Seriously, I can't understand why you aren't just given an overall percentage mark. 69.75 ain't very far away from 70, yet you could stand to lose a college place. Still, that is how the CAO works I guess.

Are you suggesting that you should get 69.75 points instead? ie. A system where you just add up your percentages?

MegGustaa

I could be wrong, but can't you view your marked scripts in the Leaving Cert before you request an appeal? Wouldn't you at least be able to tot up the marks and figure out the exact percentage even if they don't write it on the paper? (This is just what I've heard).

EuropeanSon

MegGustaa wrote: »

I could be wrong, but can't you view your marked scripts in the Leaving Cert before you request an appeal? Wouldn't you at least be able to tot up the marks and figure out the exact percentage even if they don't write it on the paper? (This is just what I've heard).

Yes, you can. Except for languages with oral exams, where the results aren't shown. For those you can just estimate.

Naikon

Sunny!! wrote: »

i was told by a couple of teachers that correct the exams that anyone that gets a grade like that they will try and bring you up anyway:)

Not in my case. Fair enough, rules are rules, but I was pissed off at the time. Was told not to even bother trying to appeal.

Naikon

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Are you suggesting that you should get 69.75 points instead? ie. A system where you just add up your percentages?

GPA system.

Naikon

BeanbagBallbag wrote: »

279 marks is not 70%.

Fair enough. It's hard to say 69.75 is measurably worse than 70% though. The CAO system is too granular I think. If you meet a specific band, you should get a place. But then again, we live in the real world.

EuropeanSon

Naikon wrote: »

GPA system.

Don't they give grades in that too? ie. 4 for an A, 3 for a B etc?

Naikon

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Don't they give grades in that too? ie. 4 for an A, 3 for a B etc?

They do. But your overall average is all they care about. Even then, you could be pushed up a degree class if you are within 3% of the next grade. I have seen it happen. The CAO offers no such discretion.

jumpguy

What advantages would a GPA system have over the normal points system though really, except it'd only simplify the addition a bit?

EuropeanSon

jumpguy wrote: »

What advantages would a GPA system have over the normal points system though really, except it'd only simplify the addition a bit?

I think he's saying that they take their overall percentage average across all subjects before giving a grade, ie. it's your true average percentage score.

implausible

I'm am only certain about English, but I think it goes for other subjects too - examiners do not calculate percentages. Everything, including your final mark, is just marks out of 20, 50, 400 or whatever.

EuropeanSon

deemark wrote: »

I'm am only certain about English, but I think it goes for other subjects too - examiners do not calculate percentages. Everything, including your final mark, is just marks out of 20, 50, 400 or whatever.

That's essentially academic, though. It only takes milliseconds to do, that they don't do it doesn't really matter once they have the marks scored and what they are out of available.

LilMissCiara

jumpguy wrote: »

What advantages would a GPA system have over the normal points system though really, except it'd only simplify the addition a bit?

You're a mod?! :eek:

stacexD

It isn't the best system in fairness
Whatever about 1% bringing you up/down a grade but what about the unfortunate ones who get say 74% in the 6 subjects, they have 4 out of the 5 marks towards a higher grade, multiply that by 6 it's a lot of marks

LilMissCiara

stacexD wrote: »

It isn't the best system in fairness
Whatever about 1% bringing you up/down a grade but what about the unfortunate ones who get say 74% in the 6 subjects, they have 4 out of the 5 marks towards a higher grade, multiply that by 6 it's a lot of marks

It's unfortunate but at the end of the day they didn't get 75%. 74% is a big difference to 75%, especially where the exams have 400marks etc.

74.9% not getting a B2 is a little harsh though.

im invisible

Naikon wrote: »

Fair enough. It's hard to say 69.75 is measurably worse than 70% though. The CAO system is too granular I think. If you meet a specific band, you should get a place. But then again, we live in the real world.

yeah, but where does one band finish and another one start?
if you get 69.75%, you get 70 points, if you get 70%, you get 75 points

stacexD

LilMissCiara wrote: »

It's unfortunate but at the end of the day they didn't get 75%. 74% is a big difference to 75%, especially where the exams have 400marks etc.

74.9% not getting a B2 is a little harsh though.

I know what you mean but what I'm saying is its unfair that someone who gets 74% in 6 subjects and someone who gets 70% in 6 subjects should get the same points. For one or 2 exams it's fair to say sh!t happens but added up it's a bit annoying.
Of course the people affected by it will never know though so :rolleyes:

LilMissCiara

stacexD wrote: »

I know what you mean but what I'm saying is its unfair that someone who gets 74% in 6 subjects and someone who gets 70% in 6 subjects should get the same points. For one or 2 exams it's fair to say sh!t happens but added up it's a bit annoying.
Of course the people affected by it will never know though so :rolleyes:

No it's not! On that basis then it's unfair that someone who gets 74% in 6 subjects will get the same points as someone who gets 73% in 6. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and with the SEC it's done in 5% blocks (bar the A1) which is, in my opinion, very fair.

implausible

Naikon wrote: »

They do. But your overall average is all they care about. Even then, you could be pushed up a degree class if you are within 3% of the next grade. I have seen it happen. The CAO offers no such discretion.

The discretion is given at the examining level by the human beings. The CAO is a computerised system, even where discretion could be used, there is random selection.

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's essentially academic, though. It only takes milliseconds to do, that they don't do it doesn't really matter once they have the marks scored and what they are out of available.

That examiners don't work on percentages does matter in this discussion, as it's not the examiner deliberately leaving an aggrieved student within .75 of a grade or leaving them short of points on the CAO.

im invisible wrote: »

yeah, but where does one band finish and another one start? If you get 69.75%, you get 70 points, if you get 70%, you get 75 points

Again, examiners work on marks, not percentages, so the answer to your question is easy - in English from 320-339 (inclusive) is a B1, 319 is a B2 and 340 is an A2 because it's marked out of 400. Don't confuse the marks given in the exam with CAO points.

stacexD

LilMissCiara wrote: »

No it's not! On that basis then it's unfair that someone who gets 74% in 6 subjects will get the same points as someone who gets 73% in 6. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and with the SEC it's done in 5% blocks (bar the A1) which is, in my opinion, very fair.

I think it would be a lot fairer if the line was drawn once your total was added up.
So:
6x74 = 444, they fall into the 440 points block
6x71 = 426, they fall into 425
Considering how strict they are with points when it comes to college places they should be more accurate in giving out points

LilMissCiara

stacexD wrote: »

I think it would be a lot fairer if the line was drawn once your total was added up.
So:
6x74 = 444, they fall into the 440 points block
6x71 = 426, they fall into 425
Considering how strict they are with points when it comes to college places they should be more accurate in giving out points

Then currently someone who gets 6 B3s would then get anywhere between 425 and 440 points. That's a massive difference when it comes to the CAO and also the amount of people getting rechecks would increase because essentially every percent counts. Your way is pretty flawed.

stacexD

LilMissCiara wrote: »

Then currently someone who gets 6 B3s would then get anywhere between 425 and 440 points. That's a massive difference when it comes to the CAO and also the amount of people getting rechecks would increase because essentially every percent counts. Your way is pretty flawed.

As flawed as someone getting 15 marks less/more than they should.
They should do some sort of work to make the system better anyways, whatever it may be

rainbowtrout

stacexD wrote: »

I know what you mean but what I'm saying is its unfair that someone who gets 74% in 6 subjects and someone who gets 70% in 6 subjects should get the same points. For one or 2 exams it's fair to say sh!t happens but added up it's a bit annoying.
Of course the people affected by it will never know though so :rolleyes:

But if students who were on 74.5 or on the edge of whatever band were always bumped up to the next percentage and therefore got 5 extra points, then that's not fair on the people who genuinely got 75 in the exam.

If a person was worth 75 then they should be able to get 75 on their own merit and not have to rely on an examiner bumping them up a few marks. If that was to happen to everyone then there would be no one on 89, 84, 79..... etc etc as they would all be bumped up. Hardly fair on the ones who get 73, why shouldn't they get a higher grade too?

rainbowtrout

stacexD wrote: »

I think it would be a lot fairer if the line was drawn once your total was added up.
So:
6x74 = 444, they fall into the 440 points block
6x71 = 426, they fall into 425
Considering how strict they are with points when it comes to college places they should be more accurate in giving out points

Then everyone would be appealing grades, if you got 6 74s you can guarantee a student would appeal all of them to see if they could get 6 75s

EuropeanSon

deemark wrote: »

That examiners don't work on percentages does matter in this discussion, as it's not the examiner deliberately leaving an aggrieved student within .75 of a grade or leaving them short of points on the CAO.

Again, no it doesn't. The examiner knows what the grade boundaries are (in marks), and if they are leaving someone 1 mark short, they know that. There is absolutely no difference between this and leaving someone 0.25% off.

Example: An examiner gives someone 359 marks out of 400. They know, in this situation, that 360 is an A1. This is exactly the same as giving them 89.75%, knowing 90% is an A1. The two situations are identical, and so whether you look at the percentages is immaterial.

rainbowtrout

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Again, no it doesn't. The examiner knows what the grade boundaries are (in marks), and if they are leaving someone 1 mark short, they know that. There is absolutely no difference between this and leaving someone 0.25% off.

Example: An examiner gives someone 359 marks out of 400. They know, in this situation, that 360 is an A1. This is exactly the same as giving them 89.75%, knowing 90% is an A1. The two situations are identical, and so whether you look at the percentages is immaterial.

It makes no difference. They are not leaving them one mark short. They are giving them the mark they merited in the exam. Students should not expect marks for free.

EuropeanSon

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It makes no difference. They are not leaving them one mark short. They are giving them the mark they merited in the exam. Students should not expect marks for free.

English and Irish exams are quite subjective. In other instances examiners have to make a call when the marking scheme is ambiguous. Regardless, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that whether they merited 359/400 or 89.75% is academic, and doesn't matter.

kellogscoffey

According to my maths teacher, if you're within something like 1/7th of a percent, you're rounded up. Now I could be wrong, it could be within 1/6th or 1/8th aswell.

And this fella's mad for all these particulars, so doubt him at your peril :pac: