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avoca river 17 lb seatrout!!!

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Exactly. There's a good chance the east coast rivers and Welsh rivers have a common sea trout stock, I would certainly expect a closer relationship between them than between Wicklow and Currane sea trout. AFAIK there is some ferox DNA in the Currane sea trout, which might explain how they grow a lot larger than other west coast sea trout.

    Thanks for coming on spero elite, well done on the catch of a lifetime! :D

    You are absolutely right about the racial differences - the Currane stock is unique in Ireland. The theory is that the Irish sea has considerably richer feeding than the Atlantic - so it should produce larger sea trout, like the Welsh rivers. Currane is an anomaly where pre ice age genes (the ferox gene you refer to) are constantly fed into the system from above falls that are impassable to the post ice age strain.
    I think there are a few problems with this theory. Such as, if Irish Sea feeding trout are so well fed, why are the Slaney fish generally small, very similar in fact to the Connemara and Donegal fisheries? And if the sustainance of the pre Ice age gene is dependent on impassable falls with a stock of fish above possessing this gene - shouldn't sea trout from other east coast rivers (including the Avoca) have a genotype similar to the Currane fish? The Slaney, The Avoca, The Vartry and the Dargle all have a stock of fish (many unique in appearance) above impassable falls.
    I firmly believe that each catchment has a genetically distinct population.
    It is fascinating to see that Stylie sees the Avoca fish as very similar to a sewin.
    Hopefully, the geneticists will get a chance to analyse the scales of this marvellous creature.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    shblob wrote: »
    told ya haha
    :D


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Hello everyone, just came on to clear up any speculation about the sea trout.
    First before I start let me just say, that a state licence is needed to fish the Avoca River and all rivers that flow into it. The method for fishing is single barbless fly Only and it's catch and release for sea trout under 40cm (NO SALMON FISHING).
    The fish is a sea trout it was confirmed by the Fisheries Board, scale samples were taken and the fish measured 34 1/2 inches the fish was then safely released back, he weighed 16 3/4lbs he was caught on the night of 9th July 2011.
    I was the angler who caught the beast!! the weight was witnessed by my fishing partner so there you have it, it's TRUE.
    I'll bet you are delighted. Without going in to too much detail, (for obvious reasons) it would be wonderful to hear a description of the capture.:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    shblob wrote: »
    told ya haha
    Somebody had to throw out the possibility that it was a salmon. I selflessly took on that task :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Compton


    I've never caught a ST of any size, because I don't fish for them. But have caught a lot of salmon, and that doesn't look anything like them!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    slowburner wrote: »
    You are absolutely right about the racial differences - the Currane stock is unique in Ireland. The theory is that the Irish sea has considerably richer feeding than the Atlantic - so it should produce larger sea trout, like the Welsh rivers. Currane is an anomaly where pre ice age genes (the ferox gene you refer to) are constantly fed into the system from above falls that are impassable to the post ice age strain.
    I think there are a few problems with this theory. Such as, if Irish Sea feeding trout are so well fed, why are the Slaney fish generally small, very similar in fact to the Connemara and Donegal fisheries? And if the sustainance of the pre Ice age gene is dependent on impassable falls with a stock of fish above possessing this gene - shouldn't sea trout from other east coast rivers (including the Avoca) have a genotype similar to the Currane fish? The Slaney, The Avoca, The Vartry and the Dargle all have a stock of fish (many unique in appearance) above impassable falls.
    I firmly believe that each catchment has a genetically distinct population.
    It is fascinating to see that Stylie sees the Avoca fish as very similar to a sewin.
    Hopefully, the geneticists will get a chance to analyse the scales of this marvellous creature.

    Good post, but maybe you're linking pre-Ice age genes a bit too much with ferox trout. Ferox trout do seem to have been the first trout to recolonise after the Ice Age, but they only appear to have recolonised a few catchments (e.g. Corrib, Melvin, Currane), there were later waves of recolonisation from other strains of brown trout, which eventually filled up all the rivers. So while its possible that the ferox gene is coming from above impassable falls in Currane, the same doesn't apply in Corrib or Melvin, where ferox have remained genetically distinct through thousands of years through reproductive isolation. This is in spite of spawning in the same rivers as other brown trout. It may just be that Currane sea trout hold some ferox genes, and have maintained that genetic diversity as the Corrib and Melvin ferox have.
    Ferox may never have colonised the Avoca, or the other rivers you mention, so there may be no ferox genes available, upstream or downstream of falls, to influence the sea trout genetics.

    I agree strongly that each river has its own genetically distinct strain, but fish from different rivers in an area are usually more closely related than fish from distant rivers. Sea trout are also known to stray more than salmon. With the common feeding ground in the Irish Sea, it is quite possible that the Welsh and east coast sea trout stocks form a "stock unit" of closely related strains. I've fished in Wales, and I thought the same as Stylie. I've also been told of commercial fishermen in Wexford in the past targeting big sea trout at a certain time of year, and calling them Welsh fish, they were quite sure these fish came over from Wales to feed on the Irish coast at that time every year, so with all the mixing of stocks at sea it wouldn't be surprising to see some Welsh fish spawning in Irish rivers too.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Good post, but maybe you're linking pre-Ice age genes a bit too much with ferox trout. Ferox trout do seem to have been the first trout to recolonise after the Ice Age, but they only appear to have recolonised a few catchments (e.g. Corrib, Melvin, Currane), there were later waves of recolonisation from other strains of brown trout, which eventually filled up all the rivers. So while its possible that the ferox gene is coming from above impassable falls in Currane, the same doesn't apply in Corrib or Melvin, where ferox have remained genetically distinct through thousands of years through reproductive isolation. This is in spite of spawning in the same rivers as other brown trout. It may just be that Currane sea trout hold some ferox genes, and have maintained that genetic diversity as the Corrib and Melvin ferox have.
    I agree strongly that each river has its own genetically distinct strain, but fish from different rivers in an area are usually more closely related than fish from distant rivers. Sea trout are also known to stray more than salmon. With the common feeding ground in the Irish Sea, it is quite possible that the Welsh and east coast sea trout stocks form a "stock unit" of closely related strains. I've fished in Wales, and I thought the same as Stylie. I've also been told of commercial fishermen in Wexford in the past targeting big sea trout at a certain time of year, and calling them Welsh fish, they were quite sure these fish came over from Wales to feed on the Irish coast at that time every year, so with all the mixing of stocks at sea it wouldn't be surprising to see some Welsh fish spawning in Irish rivers too.
    I've fished the Towy myself - unsuccessfully but I saw some of those big beasts!
    There was a fascinating paper produced in 1981 by A.Ferguson of Queen's University. His study of lough Melvin demonstrated conclusive proof of genetically distinct populations within the same catchment - Brown trout, Ferox, Sonaghan and Gillaroo. Interestingly, what was thought to have been a classification worthy of ridicule by science, turned out to be perfectly accurate. On a similar note, I have noticed fish from tributaries to have a distinctly different appearance from fish in either the main river or other tributaries; similarly with trout from hill loughs.
    I was lucky enough to have been at a lecture by him back then. Dr. Ferguson was very much of the opinion that fisheries should be managed at a micro level and with due respect for the possibility of unique populations. This was to become a cornerstone of fisheries management policy - but my experience has been that it has fallen by the wayside. I mention the Ferguson work because he identified the biochemical compound (the LDH 5 allele) which is present in Ferox trout, the long living Currane sea trout and the Welsh sewin. Small trout high up in the mountains also have the gene but stay small because of poor food resources.
    I believe it is generally accepted that the Ferox trout are descendents of a pre ice age race which colonised rivers from the sea. They were the pioneers, if you like. They travelled inland before the ice sheets fully retreated. When the ice did fully retreat, they were isolated above impassable falls. The later arrival of the shorter lived post celtic strain meant they could only colonise catchments below the falls.They are also known as the Boreal strain which originated in northern Europe - there is a similar parallel with salmon strains, by the way, the Boreal strain is characterised by the Rhine salmon, still present in Norwegian rivers. The celtic strain is what we are familiar with today - mostly grilse, spring salmon, summer salmon. Those multi-sea winter fish of yesteryear in Scottish rivers like the Tay, Tweed and Spey (to a lesser extent) and the Wye in England, were very likely Boreal salmon.
    It is interesting what you say about those "Welsh sea trout" off Wexford. I have seen them myself in a very unusual piece of brackish water in the far southeast. These fish are big, much bigger than the normal runs in nearby fisheries but they only run this watercourse in October/November and conditions are totally unsuited to spawning there so they must be feeding?
    I mentioned some of my reservations to the late Hugh Falkus when he pioneered fishing for sea trout amongst the kelp in Donegal. He said he always had a feeling that the larger than normal fish he was catching there were feeding as they passed by. He didn't think they were bound for local freshwater.

    Ferox may never have colonised the Avoca, or the other rivers you mention, so there may be no ferox genes available, upstream or downstream of falls, to influence the sea trout genetics.
    You could be right but I think the fact of their verified existence across the Irish sea would make it difficult to see how they would not have colonised the upper reaches of the east coast catchments. We would need to get advice from a geographer - could the fact that the ice retreated from west to east have prohibited ferox from colonising the eastern fisheries?
    So many questions!!


    It is long out of print , but if you haven't already got it, there is an excellent book by,
    Edward Fahy, Child of the Tides(1985) ISBN 0 907606 31 8
    Well worth searching for.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 3,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭coolwings


    There is the strong likelihood that after glacial melt, and before the sea finished it's rise up to present day levels, the Irish sea was once a lake, and therefore the Welsh shore was a common shore with the Irish east coast.

    It tends to be forgotten that pack ice covered the land and sea down to roughly the middle of Ireland, and there were under glacier rivers, over ice rivers, and when a glacier blocked a river there formed vast meltwater lakes that covered hundreds of miles of terrain. So fish could move over the land in a way that seems strange to us who think in terms of fish following existing modern rivers.
    So I would hypothesize that it is highly likely both the Irish and Welsh seatrout are of the same ancestral stock. But seatrout are of a later trout migration than the original ferox who came before.
    The timeline is like this:
    Ferox and sea char came first feeding around the edge of the ice pack, and spawning in the streams coming out from it (as in Greenland today) (Ferox trout are of an older type than modern trout.)
    The ice came back (smaller ice age), mixed up the landscape and waters some more, and retreated.
    The modern trout and seatrout came, originating from a different stock which over-wintered the ice age in central Europe.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I spoke to a representative of 'the powers that be' today
    It seems that the crazy thing about the capture of this wonderful fish, is that it cannot be recognised as the record sea trout for the republic of Ireland. It cannot even be recorded as a specimen.
    What the hell good is that going to do?
    This is because the Avoca catchment is technically closed to salmon angling and sea trout larger than 40 cm.
    I hope you all agree that this is an absurd situation. The angler in question complied with the law as required. He did not kill the fish, he caught the fish by legitimate means, he had a salmon license and he did not set out to catch a fish over 40 cm.
    Sometimes, the authorities weave themselves such complicated policies that they lose sight of what is real.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 spero elite


    slowburner wrote: »
    I'll bet you are delighted. Without going in to too much detail, (for obvious reasons) it would be wonderful to hear a description of the capture.:)

    Hi Slowburner, myself and a fishing parter had been fishing on the Avoca that eve, we had caught several small ST and released them, the fish showed in the pool above where I was fishing, before it was fully dark, so I didnt try him straight away.
    I fished some other pools while I was waiting for darkness to fall, at this point I did not know it was a ST.
    I had fished down one of the pools when my fishing partner walked up to me and I asked did he want to go home or stay?? He said he would fish the pool that I had just been at as he had just changed his fly's.
    Then I went down to the pool where I seen the fish move (Lucky Boy) I put on a 1 1/2 inch alluminium tube with a salar single (with the barb squeezed down) and started at the head of the pool, on my 4th cast while stripping the fly back he hit it with a BANG!! and all hell broke loose, all i could see was white foam on the water through the inky darkness, I thought I hooked FREE WHILLY, the fish's 1st run tore of 20 or more yards of line downstream and he made 3 other big runs after this.
    He was lying in only 3ft of water when he took, in total the fight lasted 20mins. He was then carefully weighed & messured and released back to spawn and produce more 16 lbers. I am a professional fly dresser and live locally, the tube fly he took was one of my own patterns called the Lava Tale, I would be happy to put up pics of the fly if u like? Far to many big fish today end up in pictures with gill tags in them.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 3,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭coolwings


    All I can say is congrats and well done, on all of it, including the release!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Compton


    Great story, Thats what fishing's about. Hopefully you'll get his dad next year, 20lber!!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Hi Slowburner, myself and a fishing parter had been fishing on the Avoca that eve, we had caught several small ST and released them, the fish showed in the pool above where I was fishing, before it was fully dark, so I didnt try him straight away.
    I fished some other pools while I was waiting for darkness to fall, at this point I did not know it was a ST.
    I had fished down one of the pools when my fishing partner walked up to me and I asked did he want to go home or stay?? He said he would fish the pool that I had just been at as he had just changed his fly's.
    Then I went down to the pool where I seen the fish move (Lucky Boy) I put on a 1 1/2 inch alluminium tube with a salar single (with the barb squeezed down) and started at the head of the pool, on my 4th cast while stripping the fly back he hit it with a BANG!! and all hell broke loose, all i could see was white foam on the water through the inky darkness, I thought I hooked FREE WHILLY, the fish's 1st run tore of 20 or more yards of line downstream and he made 3 other big runs after this.
    He was lying in only 3ft of water when he took, in total the fight lasted 20mins. He was then carefully weighed & messured and released back to spawn and produce more 16 lbers. I am a professional fly dresser and live locally, the tube fly he took was one of my own patterns called the Lava Tale, I would be happy to put up pics of the fly if u like? Far to many big fish today end up in pictures with gill tags in them.
    Great stuff, thanks for putting up the post and I for one, would love to see a picture of the fly.
    Local myself - and a fly tier:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭ironbluedun


    coolwings wrote: »
    All I can say is congrats and well done, on all of it, including the release!

    i agree, great story, super catch, great attitude, its more like you we need spero :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    slowburner wrote: »
    I've fished the Towy myself - unsuccessfully but I saw some of those big beasts!
    There was a fascinating paper produced in 1981 by A.Ferguson of Queen's University. His study of lough Melvin demonstrated conclusive proof of genetically distinct populations within the same catchment - Brown trout, Ferox, Sonaghan and Gillaroo. Interestingly, what was thought to have been a classification worthy of ridicule by science, turned out to be perfectly accurate. On a similar note, I have noticed fish from tributaries to have a distinctly different appearance from fish in either the main river or other tributaries; similarly with trout from hill loughs.
    I was lucky enough to have been at a lecture by him back then. Dr. Ferguson was very much of the opinion that fisheries should be managed at a micro level and with due respect for the possibility of unique populations. This was to become a cornerstone of fisheries management policy - but my experience has been that it has fallen by the wayside. I mention the Ferguson work because he identified the biochemical compound (the LDH 5 allele) which is present in Ferox trout, the long living Currane sea trout and the Welsh sewin. Small trout high up in the mountains also have the gene but stay small because of poor food resources.
    I believe it is generally accepted that the Ferox trout are descendents of a pre ice age race which colonised rivers from the sea. They were the pioneers, if you like. They travelled inland before the ice sheets fully retreated. When the ice did fully retreat, they were isolated above impassable falls. The later arrival of the shorter lived post celtic strain meant they could only colonise catchments below the falls.They are also known as the Boreal strain which originated in northern Europe - there is a similar parallel with salmon strains, by the way, the Boreal strain is characterised by the Rhine salmon, still present in Norwegian rivers. The celtic strain is what we are familiar with today - mostly grilse, spring salmon, summer salmon. Those multi-sea winter fish of yesteryear in Scottish rivers like the Tay, Tweed and Spey (to a lesser extent) and the Wye in England, were very likely Boreal salmon.
    It is interesting what you say about those "Welsh sea trout" off Wexford. I have seen them myself in a very unusual piece of brackish water in the far southeast. These fish are big, much bigger than the normal runs in nearby fisheries but they only run this watercourse in October/November and conditions are totally unsuited to spawning there so they must be feeding?
    I mentioned some of my reservations to the late Hugh Falkus when he pioneered fishing for sea trout amongst the kelp in Donegal. He said he always had a feeling that the larger than normal fish he was catching there were feeding as they passed by. He didn't think they were bound for local freshwater.


    You could be right but I think the fact of their verified existence across the Irish sea would make it difficult to see how they would not have colonised the upper reaches of the east coast catchments. We would need to get advice from a geographer - could the fact that the ice retreated from west to east have prohibited ferox from colonising the eastern fisheries?
    So many questions!!


    It is long out of print , but if you haven't already got it, there is an excellent book by,
    Edward Fahy, Child of the Tides(1985) ISBN 0 907606 31 8
    Well worth searching for.

    This is a great discussion, there are so many variables and possibilities... I've been lucky enough to have done fieldwork with Andy Ferguson, and had quite a few chats with him on all this, one or two over a few pints of delicious porter :)
    The whole story of genetic diversity of Irish fish stocks is fascinating for its complexity, and it really is a shame that fish stocks haven't been managed to protect this. I think the future will see more of a move towards protecting genetic diversity, already fisheries managers are realising the benefits of habitat work over hatcheries, and stocking of fish is becoming much more stricly regulated, this can only be a good thing.
    Now if only we could get rid of those damn fish farms and really protect our sea trout on the west coast... :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Hi Slowburner, myself and a fishing parter had been fishing on the Avoca that eve, we had caught several small ST and released them, the fish showed in the pool above where I was fishing, before it was fully dark, so I didnt try him straight away.
    I fished some other pools while I was waiting for darkness to fall, at this point I did not know it was a ST.
    I had fished down one of the pools when my fishing partner walked up to me and I asked did he want to go home or stay?? He said he would fish the pool that I had just been at as he had just changed his fly's.
    Then I went down to the pool where I seen the fish move (Lucky Boy) I put on a 1 1/2 inch alluminium tube with a salar single (with the barb squeezed down) and started at the head of the pool, on my 4th cast while stripping the fly back he hit it with a BANG!! and all hell broke loose, all i could see was white foam on the water through the inky darkness, I thought I hooked FREE WHILLY, the fish's 1st run tore of 20 or more yards of line downstream and he made 3 other big runs after this.
    He was lying in only 3ft of water when he took, in total the fight lasted 20mins. He was then carefully weighed & messured and released back to spawn and produce more 16 lbers. I am a professional fly dresser and live locally, the tube fly he took was one of my own patterns called the Lava Tale, I would be happy to put up pics of the fly if u like? Far to many big fish today end up in pictures with gill tags in them.

    Great account of the capture Spero, well done! Love to see photos of the fly...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Zzippy wrote: »
    This is a great discussion, there are so many variables and possibilities... I've been lucky enough to have done fieldwork with Andy Ferguson, and had quite a few chats with him on all this, one or two over a few pints of delicious porter :)
    The whole story of genetic diversity of Irish fish stocks is fascinating for its complexity, and it really is a shame that fish stocks haven't been managed to protect this. I think the future will see more of a move towards protecting genetic diversity, already fisheries managers are realising the benefits of habitat work over hatcheries, and stocking of fish is becoming much more stricly regulated, this can only be a good thing.
    Now if only we could get rid of those damn fish farms and really protect our sea trout on the west coast... :mad:
    Our paths must have crossed somewhere on the fisheries road:)
    I never spoke with Andy Ferguson myself, lucky you. (I couldn't remember his first name, thanks - age don't you know!)

    I hope you are right about a future which respects the diversity in our fish populations, I really do, but to be truthful, I fear for the future.
    What are the genetic implications of these fish farms, for example? Not to mention the sea lice/disease problems.
    I have seen too many places where stocking policy has taken no account of existing populations. Fairly recently, I wrote to the manager of a Board expressing objections to a put and take fishery to be situated alongside an important sea trout/salmon fishery. It is a fishery with several distinctive populations.
    I never even received acknowledgement of the letter and the artificial fishery is now in place without any mechanisms for preventing the escapement of introduced fish.
    I think we need to look at what has happened to the chalk streams across the pond to get an idea of what the future might be like here.
    I suppose anglers have to shoulder some of the blame - me included - for wanting instant results. But we have to look at the bigger picture. The variety and uniqueness of the many salmonid populations on this island is of astonishing and underrated value in itself as a resource and to the biodiversity of Europe as a whole.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭ironbluedun


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Now if only we could get rid of those damn fish farms and really protect our sea trout on the west coast... :mad:

    fish farms, dont mind them..........what about the sheep dip? why did stocks collapse on east coast when no fish farms there? i cant figure it out.........;)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Did the east coast sea trout population collapse? When was this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    are them the pics of the sea trout? if so how come it said on first page it was released yet has a tag in it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Compton


    the one with the tag is from lough currane


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭thehamo


    shblob wrote: »
    the one with the tag is from lough currane

    for comparison purposes


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Compton


    I know, i was telling the guy above me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭thehamo


    shblob wrote: »
    I know, i was telling the guy above me.



    Sorry was quoting dodderangler. Serious well done to the lad who landed it. Better than anything I could ever manage!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭ironbluedun


    slowburner wrote: »
    Did the east coast sea trout population collapse? When was this?

    YOU know when!!......From my personal experience the collapse and recovery was and is in tandem with what has and is happening on other coasts. i am sure you remember when it all kicked off.......i used to fish some east coast rivers a lot at night for seatrout, then at the same time when the collapse happened on the famous connemara seatrout fisheries stocks greatly declined on the east coast rivers as well. we used to get plenty of good fish then from 86, 87 on i would guess stocks fell by 80% in those rivers. Literally in the space of a couple of seasons. I call that a stock collapse. But no fish farms???????????

    From what i hear (i have not fished for seatrout on them for a good few years now) stocks are making a bit of a recovery. But i presume still nothing like they used to be.

    {Just my experiences not looking for a big bull and cow, sadly which often happens here....;)}


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    YOU know when!!......From my personal experience the collapse and recovery was and is in tandem with what has and is happening on other coasts. i am sure you remember when it all kicked off.......i used to fish some east coast rivers a lot at night for seatrout, then at the same time when the collapse happened on the famous connemara seatrout fisheries stocks greatly declined on the east coast rivers as well. we used to get plenty of good fish then from 86, 87 on i would guess stocks fell by 80% in those rivers. Literally in the space of a couple of seasons. I call that a stock collapse. But no fish farms???????????

    From what i hear (i have not fished for seatrout on them for a good few years now) stocks are making a bit of a recovery. But i presume still nothing like they used to be.

    {Just my experiences not looking for a big bull and cow, sadly which often happens here....;)}
    Me neither:)
    I happened to be in Connemara when the collapse began so I pretty much missed out on the East Coast problem. Just from hazy recollection - I seem to remember that it wasn't as drastic a collapse as Connemara?
    I think one of the difficulties is that meticulous records were kept in most of the Connemara fisheries - not so with the East coast, where records were largely word of mouth. So a collapse would be very obvious in one fishery but not the other. The other thing to remember is that stocks recovered on the East coast by 1990, the decline was for about 4 years - not so on the West coast, where a recovery is only just beginning (hopefully) some 23 years later. So, a 4 year collapse versus a 23 year collapse. The stand out variable is fish farming.
    I wouldn't want to start a fish farm debate here, but I think it is pretty clear that the fish farms had a negative effect. However, I fully accept the probability that their may have been a conjunction of negative factors such as global warming, afforestation, a trend for severe floods just after spawning time, reduced catch effort etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭ironbluedun


    slowburner wrote: »
    The other thing to remember is that stocks recovered on the East coast by 1990, the decline was for about 4 years

    To be honest i cant say i agree with that sentence....the decline was fairly sudden and we have not seen the level catches like there used to be...even now its not great, some rivers get half decent runs but not like it was 25 years ago i am afraid, according to reports its nothing like it was.

    But you are 100% correct fish farms do damage, and i hate the sight of them. But its the things we cant see that do the most damage stuff like sheep dip chemicals which are lethal. After a sheep is dipped it carries 2litres of dangerous chemicals out onto the land, when it rains this stuff gets washed into streams and as they say the rest is history. What about all those fertilizers, weed killers, detergents etc (is it any wonder cancer is so common?) While i would dearly love to see an end to fish farming, I just think its too easy to blame fish farms, the sheep dip, slurry and other chemicals plastered on the land i think do more damage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭ring 20


    if sheep dip and poisons are the problem would it not kill all the fish? many places i fish are full of brown trout yet hardly any sea trout, fish farms are sea trout enemy no 1 i recon myself


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